Prospects You Love

[AmishMafia]

Isnt that what Thompson was telling us for years that the Packers were drafting the "best player available"

Shouldn't we have a bunch of good players on D?

Are you under the impression that CM3, Daniels, Clark, Martinez, King, HaHa, Perry, Haywood, Hyde, . . . all have no talent?

 

[brandon2348]

Are you under the impression that CM3, Daniels, Clark, Martinez, King, HaHa, Perry, Haywood, Hyde, . . . all have no talent?

No, i'm under the impression that Ted Thompson won one Super Bowl with Aaron Rodgers(The Goat) and spent massive draft capital on defense and at the end of the day failed to put a solid defense in place which has now depleted the offense. Not to mention never give Rodgers the elite playmaker he deserves.

Yet were all sitting here again literally 8 years later having the same discussion which is basically "should we take the offense to the next level or continue to pour picks into the defense". Shoot, I hope all those guys that we still have on that list play like pro bowlers next year. Maybe we could actually go after a playmaker on offense then.

 

[GleefulGary]

Aaron Rodgers is great, but let's not pretend like Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Randall Cobb and Davante Adams are chopped liver. Sure he elevated them, but they are/were all great players.

Jordy, in his prime, was one of the best deep threats in the game. Cobb, in his prime, was one of if not the best slot WR in the game. To act like Rodgers completely made them is shortchanging their ability.

And Lacy was a damn good back his first couple years, and then he ate himself out of a job.

 

[GleefulGary]

No, i'm under the impression that Ted Thompson won one Super Bowl with Aaron Rodgers(The Goat) and spent massive draft capital on defense and at the end of the day failed to put a solid defense in place which has now depleted the offense. Not to mention never give Rodgers the elite playmaker he deserves.

Yet were all sitting here again literally 8 years later having the same discussion which is basically "should we take the offense to the next level or continue to pour picks into the defense". Shoot, I hope all those guys that we still have on that list play like pro bowlers next year. Maybe we could actually go after a playmaker on offense then.

Nobody is having that discussion. You're again, making it up.

The only discussion I've seen is, "who is the best available player that fits our needs." And those needs have been on offense and defense. Most people aren't saying it has to be offense or it has to be defense. They're just saying to take the best player. We all just don't agree on who the best player is, and that's fine.

 

[AmishMafia]

No, i'm under the impression that Ted Thompson won one Super Bowl with Aaron Rodgers(The Goat) and spent massive draft capital on defense and at the end of the day failed to put a solid defense in place which has now depleted the offense. Not to mention never give Rodgers the elite playmaker he deserves.

Yet were all sitting here again literally 8 years later having the same discussion which is basically "should we take the offense to the next level or continue to pour picks into the defense". Shoot, I hope all those guys that we still have on that list play like pro bowlers next year. Maybe we could actually go after a playmaker on offense then.

There is ample evidence IMHO that the defense underperformed based on coaching and not based on lack of talent.

I would rather have a great defense than a great offense. Therefore, if we draft defense again, I am fine with that.

Depleted offense? Our 2 best RBs since Ahman Green, a new stud WR in Adam's, our best OL in 10 years - do you mean we lost an older declining Jordy?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

There is ample evidence IMHO that the defense underperformed based on coaching and not based on lack of talent.

I would rather have a great defense than a great offense. Therefore, if we draft defense again, I am fine with that.

Depleted offense? Our 2 best RBs since Ahman Green, a new stud WR in Adam's, our best OL in 10 years - do you mean we lost an older declining Jordy?

Not really. Seems like talent was the main issue. People point to Hyde and Hayward as obvious players that excelled elsewhere, forgetting that Hayward was VERY good in Green Bay and Thompson chose to let him walk. Hyde, he's been great since he left but isn't he playing a position that Burnett had locked down in Green Bay?

Packers, when they had decent players, actually fielded average NFL defenses (I know, it's way more fun to pretend they were all terrible all the time). In 2013, it was the defense that kept the Packers in the playoff race while Rodgers got better. It was only when Thompson completely pooped the bed at corner and pass rusher that the defense fell apart, which is what happens when the two most important elements of a defense fall apart. Accounting for who they actually played, only 2016 & 2017 were bad defenses and that was when the Packers had basically Burnett and one year of HaHa as the only good things happening in the secondary. 2015 they were 9th best defense in the NFL and 2014 they were 16th (courtesy of Football Outsiders). Now, the GM has done a decent job in plugging some needed holes but the defense lacked talent at all but two positions (I'm assuming Perry's position will lack talent once he's hurt).

I'm not trying to be super pessimistic, just realistic in how the Packers need to address the problems on the team. A great offensive team doesn't need to be elite on defense. People bemoan how many points the Packers give up the playoffs but teams like the Falcons, Pats, and Eagles give up a lot of points in the playoffs too despite having good defenses. The Packers can win the Super Bowl, they just need to better use players on offense and fill a couple (though admittedly huge) holes on defense.

Regarding the desire to have a great defense over great offense...when you have Rodgers you're gonna have to accept the great offense at the expense of the great defense. Plus, the margin for error on the great defensive teams is SOOOO small. I mean, what have the Texans accomplished? Plus, even great defenses give up points in the playoffs unless you're talking historically great like the Bucs Super Bowl team or the Ray Lewis Ravens.

 

[brandon2348]

Not really. Seems like talent was the main issue. People point to Hyde and Hayward as obvious players that excelled elsewhere, forgetting that Hayward was VERY good in Green Bay and Thompson chose to let him walk. Hyde, he's been great since he left but isn't he playing a position that Burnett had locked down in Green Bay?

Packers, when they had decent players, actually fielded average NFL defenses (I know, it's way more fun to pretend they were all terrible all the time). In 2013, it was the defense that kept the Packers in the playoff race while Rodgers got better. It was only when Thompson completely pooped the bed at corner and pass rusher that the defense fell apart, which is what happens when the two most important elements of a defense fall apart. Accounting for who they actually played, only 2016 & 2017 were bad defenses and that was when the Packers had basically Burnett and one year of HaHa as the only good things happening in the secondary. 2015 they were 9th best defense in the NFL and 2014 they were 16th (courtesy of Football Outsiders). Now, the GM has done a decent job in plugging some needed holes but the defense lacked talent at all but two positions (I'm assuming Perry's position will lack talent once he's hurt).

I'm not trying to be super pessimistic, just realistic in how the Packers need to address the problems on the team. A great offensive team doesn't need to be elite on defense. People bemoan how many points the Packers give up the playoffs but teams like the Falcons, Pats, and Eagles give up a lot of points in the playoffs too despite having good defenses. The Packers can win the Super Bowl, they just need to better use players on offense and fill a couple (though admittedly huge) holes on defense.

Regarding the desire to have a great defense over great offense...when you have Rodgers you're gonna have to accept the great offense at the expense of the great defense. Plus, the margin for error on the great defensive teams is SOOOO small. I mean, what have the Texans accomplished? Plus, even great defenses give up points in the playoffs unless you're talking historically great like the Bucs Super Bowl team or the Ray Lewis Ravens.

There is plenty of blame to go around. I agree with all this but I believe WR is as big as a need as anywhere else. Love the Graham signing but we are 1 injury away from being in big trouble on the outside and Allison isn't much more then Boykin. Were probably a year late replacing Jordy and didn't do it last year because we were to busy drafting "DEFENSE" 1-4. I was listening to John Clayton and he was talking about around the NFL and basically listed the Cowboys and Packers as the two biggest offenses to take a step backwards. He basically said the Packers lack overall talent at the WR position so not everyone shares the same optimism.

If Gute thought we were so set at WR why would he be a player on Watkins, Robinson and Matthews?

 

[brandon2348]

Aaron Rodgers is great, but let's not pretend like Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Randall Cobb and Davante Adams are chopped liver. Sure he elevated them, but they are/were all great players.

Jordy, in his prime, was one of the best deep threats in the game. Cobb, in his prime, was one of if not the best slot WR in the game. To act like Rodgers completely made them is shortchanging their ability.

And Lacy was a damn good back his first couple years, and then he ate himself out of a job.

They were pretty darn good but not elite. Still, I would be as happy as a clam if we had 2011 receievers.

The problem is shopping at K-Mart for offensive talent eventually catches up. It just becomes so much pressure and hard to find pretty darn good players with nothing but mid-late round picks. You may get away with it with a wave here or there but nobody has ever been able to do it consistently across the board.

 

[brandon2348]

There is ample evidence IMHO that the defense underperformed based on coaching and not based on lack of talent.

I would rather have a great defense than a great offense. Therefore, if we draft defense again, I am fine with that.

Depleted offense? Our 2 best RBs since Ahman Green, a new stud WR in Adam's, our best OL in 10 years - do you mean we lost an older declining Jordy?

We have some good players on offense but its obvious Gute is "turning over the roster" by letting Janis, RR, Jordy go. There is no guarantee Evans is coming back and he is gonna be 35. Bulaga wont be back probably until mid-season. My issue with the offensive side of the roster is it is very thin at the moment and we moved through the main phase of free agency.

 

[Packerlover]

I like ANY prospect that can help the defense!

 

[ThePerfectBeard]

Are you under the impression that CM3, Daniels, Clark, Martinez, King, HaHa, Perry, Haywood, Hyde, . . . all have no talent?

I'm convinced Haywood has no talent. I'll take it one step further and say I'm convinced he never even played for the Packers.

 

[brandon2348]

A potentially elite player on offense on a rookie contract is like gold compared to what has been happening and net results.

 

[AmishMafia]

Not really. Seems like talent was the main issue. People point to Hyde and Hayward as obvious players that excelled elsewhere, forgetting that Hayward was VERY good in Green Bay and Thompson chose to let him walk. Hyde, he's been great since he left but isn't he playing a position that Burnett had locked down in Green Bay?

Hayward had a great rookie season and was, at best, good after that. Now he is playing great - much better than with the Packers. But, that is not the issue. Sindividually the players play well. It's the secondary playing together that is the issue. Seriously, how many breakdowns a game did we have last season where a wr is left wide open and DBs are back there looking at each other? Too many. That many confused players it has to be coaching as a big part of the problem.

 

[brandon2348]

The well has run dry and K-Mart sucks.

1. Jeff Janis 7th round
2. Jarred Abbrederis 5th round
3. Trevor Davis 5th round
4. Malachi Dupre 7th round
5. DeAngelo Yancey 5th round
6. Ty Montgomery 3rd round

I suppose there is a hope and a prayer we get something out of Yancey but this isn't good. Monty doesn't even play receiver anymore and cant stay healthy.

 

[brandon2348]

Hayward had a great rookie season and was, at best, good after that. Now he is playing great - much better than with the Packers. But, that is not the issue. Sindividually the players play well. It's the secondary playing together that is the issue. Seriously, how many breakdowns a game did we have last season where a wr is left wide open and DBs are back there looking at each other? Too many. That many confused players it has to be coaching as a big part of the problem.

Thats the part that can be blamed on Capers. You got guys out there thinking instead of reacting which NFL offenses are way too fast for.

 

[jetfixer]

A prospect some of you Big 10 guys might know a little about that I just learned of.......Ian Thomas. Pat Kirwin was talking about how he was very good at the senior bowl. They said he is a good all around blocker and athletic, he might be a good later round TE.

 

[ThePerfectBeard]

A prospect some of you Big 10 guys might know a little about that I just learned of.......Ian Thomas. Pat Kirwin was talking about how he was very good at the senior bowl. They said he is a good all around blocker and athletic, he might be a good later round TE.

We had a meeting with Ian too. I think we're definitely targeting someone like him at tight end in the mid rounds. I need to watch tape on him, but his hands are huge(11 1/2" holy sh..) however, I don't like this quote:

• Hands are good enough

How are your hands "good enough" being that big?

 

[Dantés]

I would be pretty surprised if Thomas made it out of the 3rd round.

 

[HardRightEdge]

It's the secondary playing together that is the issue. Seriously, how many breakdowns a game did we have last season where a wr is left wide open and DBs are back there looking at each other? Too many. That many confused players it has to be coaching as a big part of the problem.

I think it's fair to say the zone coverages were a mess. King in particular looked lost. Jones wasn't much better. Martinez had his moments you'd prefer to forget. It's fair to think those zone coverages will improve under a regime change but there's no guarantee it will. Man coverage is a whole other animal; it's scheme independent and comes down to physical talent.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

There is plenty of blame to go around. I agree with all this but I believe WR is as big as a need as anywhere else. Love the Graham signing but we are 1 injury away from being in big trouble on the outside and Allison isn't much more then Boykin. Were probably a year late replacing Jordy and didn't do it last year because we were to busy drafting "DEFENSE" 1-4. I was listening to John Clayton and he was talking about around the NFL and basically listed the Cowboys and Packers as the two biggest offenses to take a step backwards. He basically said the Packers lack overall talent at the WR position so not everyone shares the same optimism.

If Gute thought we were so set at WR why would he be a player on Watkins, Robinson and Matthews?

Because he thought they could get them at a good value, well, not Robinson but that was before signing Graham. It really comes down to whether you believe an elite QB needs an elite WR. History has shown that elite QBs don't need elite WRs. Brady had Cook last year (loosely defined as an elite WR) and Hogan turned out to be the team's best wide receiver. The Packers could use a great WR, sure. Every team could. However, having a great WR on the team isn't going to help nearly as much as having a great pass rusher or cover guy on defense.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Hayward had a great rookie season and was, at best, good after that. Now he is playing great - much better than with the Packers. But, that is not the issue. Sindividually the players play well. It's the secondary playing together that is the issue. Seriously, how many breakdowns a game did we have last season where a wr is left wide open and DBs are back there looking at each other? Too many. That many confused players it has to be coaching as a big part of the problem.

How many young corners did the team have? How many outlcassed corners did the Packers put on the field last season? By snap count, House and Randall played about 64% of the defensive snaps. Randall, as we all know, was not mentally in the game ever, so it's no shock that he might have been involved in coverage breakdowns. House, well, the Packers let him walk for a reason and the Jags let him go after one year for basically the same reason. Josh Hawkins and Kevin King played the next most snaps at corner, about 37% of the total defensive snaps. A 2nd year UFA in Hawkins and a rookie are not exactly guys you can trust to be assignment sure all the time. Another rookie, Josh Jones, played 70% of the defensive snaps so that's ANOTHER rookie who is going to make mistakes. HaHa was just not good last year.

A defensive coordinator can cover for a couple of young guys making mistakes. However, last season, the Packers were asking Capers to somehow scheme away the youth of rookies playing major snaps while also trying to cover up a 2nd year UFA, all while playing with an, at best, 2nd string corner in House as the primary cover guy. House can't cover a #1 receiver so you have to protect him, but now you have a rookie on the second best guy and that's no good. At some point the defense is gonna crack. You can ask the coach to simplify things all you want (another dicussion but without elite talent a simple defense is an easily solved defense) but Capers entire defense relied on movement and confusing the offense. Thompson did a terrible job of supplying the kind of vets that Capers needed. It was like he refused to acknowledge the needs of the DC that McCarthy chose. Now, Capers was far from perfect and changes needed to be made. But it's not as simple as, "look at those breakdowns!" You have to look at what Capers options were when understanding those breakdowns (and I refuse to believe that a team that developed Shields, Collins, Burnett, etc. suddenly couldn't develop guys the last two years).

 

[brandon2348]

Because he thought they could get them at a good value, well, not Robinson but that was before signing Graham. It really comes down to whether you believe an elite QB needs an elite WR. History has shown that elite QBs don't need elite WRs. Brady had Cook last year (loosely defined as an elite WR) and Hogan turned out to be the team's best wide receiver. The Packers could use a great WR, sure. Every team could. However, having a great WR on the team isn't going to help nearly as much as having a great pass rusher or cover guy on defense.

Lets throw the "elite reciever" tag to the side for a minute because we need reciever help regardless of whether it is elite or just really good. I've laid it out in posts that the last 6 receievers we have drafted in later rounds haven't really produced anything. The only ones even left on team is a convert to RB(who cant stay healthy) and who knows with Yancy. Then you throw in the decision to move on from Jordy(which I believe was the right decision) and the cupboards are bare.

I just believe there is some denial going on in regards to the current state of this offense on the outside. We are literally 1 injury to Adams or Graham and its a real bad situation. Its not like this offense hasn't struggled before even with AR12. All you gotta do is go look up posts from 2015 and you had people saying Rodgers was finished or blaming Thompson for having no back up plan at WR etc etc. They had to scurry to bring back Jones who was a shell of his former self. Who are they gonna call up this time?

With AR12 were always gonna be an offense first team with the way the NFL salary cap is set up so we have to keep the shelves stocked. If People want to build an elite defense then trade Rodgers for picks and use that plus the $ and stack a defense and roll Kizer. Sounds simple but we could very well end up like the Cleveland Browns with that mentality.

We haven't drafted an offensive player in the first round since Bulaga. I dont see the harm in doing it one year especially when we have 12 draft picks. Im so glad Thompson is gone from GM spot. I think a lot of Packer fans have been conditioned on how we draft because of years of Thompsons drafts and its coming out in there posts. This Gute is different and I highly expect him to stay away from some of the failing trends of the last several years.

 

[Poppa San]

Keep this going people, We are over 1/5th the way to the Fire Capers total post count, That one took the entire season to hit these numbers.

 

[Poppa San]

These are the guys listed on page one of this thread. How many are still valid names for the Packers, and who's climbed out of reach or fallen on disfavor? [I was going to give credit to the posters but the app deleted some names and I wasn't starting over]
Harold Landry - edge Boston College
Marcus Davenport - edge UTSA
Quenton Nelson - OG Notre Dame
DJ Moore - WR Maryland
Anthony Miller - WR Memphis
Alex Cappa - OL Humboldt State
Michael Jackson - CB Miami
Tremane Edmonds - LB VaTech
DeShon Elliot - S Texas
Chris Herndon - TE Miami
Marcell Ateman - WR OK State
Cedrick Wilson - WR Boise St
Bradley Chubb
Minkah Fitzpatrick
Roquan Smith
Mike McGlinchey
Simmie Cobbs Jr
DJ Chark
Allen Lazard
Clelin Ferrell at OLB
Riley Ferguson at QB
Parris Campbell
Troy Fumagalli
Kendrick Norton Jr - DT - Miami
Christan Kirk
Hercules Ma'atafa
Ogbonnia Okoronkwo
Jeff Holland
Arden Key
Duke Ejiofor
Vita Vea

 

[GleefulGary]

These are the guys listed on page one of this thread. How many are still valid names for the Packers, and who's climbed out of reach or fallen on disfavor? [I was going to give credit to the posters but the app deleted some names and I wasn't starting over]
Harold Landry - edge Boston College -yes
Marcus Davenport - edge UTSA - yes
Quenton Nelson - OG Notre Dame - please yes
DJ Moore - WR Maryland - yes
Anthony Miller - WR Memphis - yes
Alex Cappa - OL Humboldt State - yes
Michael Jackson - CB Miami - returned to college
Tremane Edmonds - LB VaTech - crushed this one, and yes
DeShon Elliot - S Texas - I like him
Chris Herndon - TE Miami - yes
Marcell Ateman - WR OK State - meh
Cedrick Wilson - WR Boise St - yes
Bradley Chubb - please yes
Minkah Fitzpatrick - please yes
Roquan Smith - please yes
Mike McGlinchey - yes
Simmie Cobbs Jr - meh
DJ Chark - meh
Allen Lazard - yes
Clelin Ferrell at OLB - returned to college
Riley Ferguson at QB - no
Parris Campbell - returned to college
Troy Fumagalli -kill me
Kendrick Norton Jr - DT - Miami - sure
Christan Kirk - sure
Hercules Ma'atafa - eh
Ogbonnia Okoronkwo - yeah
Jeff Holland - no
Arden Key - no
Duke Ejiofor - yes please
Vita Vea- no

Updated it for you. This is all my opinion. Others may not share it.