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OLine Not as Bad as We Think?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by BorderRivals.com, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. BorderRivals.com

    BorderRivals.com Cheesehead

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    Here's what JSOnline just ran this morning, citing an analysis from ProFootballFocus:

    Pro Football Focus, which grades every play of every game, ranks the Packers' offensive line 11th in the league in passing, but 29th in running and 25th in terms of penalties.
    The unit's overall rank is 20th.
    "Logic would say that Aaron Rodgers getting sacked the most of any quarterback (39) means he has the worst pass-protecting line, right?" writes Khaled Elsayed of PFF. "Except that conclusion overlooks the fact eight of those sacks were due to Rodgers' decisions and another two were the results of skill position players not picking up the pass rush. It also doesn't consider the fact Rodgers is guilty of having the sixth-highest average time to sack (from when the ball is snapped) of any player in the league."

    The information about A-Rodg's fault in the sacks is very interesting. Not only does he hold the ball longer than most in the league, but his decision-making has also led to the sacks.
     
  2. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I agree all the problems in protection don’t lie with the OL. And I haven’t analyzed every other OL so it’s difficult for me to quibble with rankings. I love sites like PPF which attempt to objectively interpret stats and analyze the effectiveness of players and teams. But here’s something I’ll bet PPF didn’t add into their analysis: Why is Rodgers holding onto the ball longer than last season and why is his decision-making worse? The reason IMO goes back to the OL. If opponents can pressure Rodgers without blitzing that leaves 7 defenders available in coverage. That causes the INT-avoiding Rodgers to hold the ball longer and it’s more difficult to make the decision to “throw a receiver open” (as he did repeatedly last year) when he’s double-teamed.

    It looks like DCs around the league figured out blitzing the Packers a lot is counter-productive so no matter the quality of the OL, there were going to be more defenders in coverage this season. Although Rodgers’ QB rating was higher vs. the blitz, from the Packers point of view less blitzing still would provide plenty of opportunities in the passing game if the OL was good enough: Even with 7 in coverage I’d like Rodgers’ chances against any D if he were given “all day” to find a receiver as should be the case with 5 OL blocking 4 rushers. And we’ve seen that against average and mediocre Ds on occasion but against good Ds like the Giants it gets even worse: The Packers have to keep a receiver (or two) to block against just 4 rushers the opponents can double team every receiver. Of course they don’t but the point is its much more difficult to complete passes. And when Ds can only rush four and not pay a price for it, there are more defenders available to stop the running game because they aren’t on their way to the passer.

    Some here have misunderstood the point some of us have made about OLs. The OL doesn’t have to be filled with all-pros, it just has to be good enough. And IMO “good enough” means that when facing a four man rush it should be able to give the QB a comfortable pocket from which to throw. And it means when teams refuse to bring either safety up to the LOS, when teams dare the Packers to run, the OL has to be good enough to move the chains in the running game.

    BTW, the Packers OL being 25th in penalties goes to the lack of quality of the OL. I prefer holding penalties to hits on Rodgers but those penalties are drive killers.
     
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  3. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    We don't have the worst line in the league, The eagles are surrendering the most knock-downs of any line, they're the worst. But even though we're not the worst, we're still bad. It's not as bad as some of us may think, but it's still not up to par IMO
     
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  4. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    You're right on the money when you say our offensive line should be able to block four when opposing defenses drop seven. 5 guys should be able to block four, no question. But one other aspect I attribute the lack of an open receiver partly to, is the injuries to Jennings and/or Nelson this season. We've been without at least one of them for the majority of this season, which means we've had to play younger, less experienced guys who aren't as adept at getting open, or who don't have the same rapport with Rodgers.
     
  5. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I've been saying that every time someone has complained about the line this year.

    Sparta hit it on the head, less WR talent.
     
  6. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Interesting analysis. For sure Rodgers has been holding the ball a long time. There are times he needs to just throw the ball away and live for the next play. And they have just killed themselves on drives with penalties. But the OL is still bad.
     
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  7. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I think the problem with the WR's is that they are taking shots within 5 yards and can't get free and the timing is all screwed up. Only Jennings seems to be able to get a clean break off of the snap and only Cobb seems to be able to eventually shed his coverage and get open. Finley is also part of the issue because he needs to be in the game drawing a double team from the linebacker and safety. 2 guys on him makes it alot easier for the WR's to do work.

    Also keep in mind that teams are able to get a rush and break up the pocket with only a 4 man rush and that leaves alot of guys to cover. If Rodgers got to just sit back there all day he would eventually find someone open but that is not the case. He is always on the move. If they had to bring 5 or 6 to get pressure then he could easily throw a quick hitter to someone that is wide open.
     
  8. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    I think having to play less-developed WR's is one part of a whole slew of problems, which also includes Rodgers holding the ball for too long, the O-Line just getting beat when they bring four, and poor run blocking which allows defenses to just sit in coverage all day. Add all these issues together and our offensive line winds up looking more pedestrian than they really are.
     
  9. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Let's not leave play calling out of this. I remember when we used to make a living running slants. What about a quick drop and throw the ball? How about a screen or a draw? There's so much more that could be done and we aren't using the available tools.
     
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  10. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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    Play calling and Rodgers holding the ball too long certainly account for a lot of sacks. Sometimes it seems to me that this offense has regressed to Rodgers going into the 5-7 step drop every pass, going through progressions and finding no one, then running around waiting for a guy to get open. It almost seems like backyard football to me. There are very little quick slants and other quick throws, or screen passes.

    Just seems to me (a layman) that there is an inability by the offensive coaches here to adapt to what defenses are doing. Maybe it's just a process that takes time, but it seems like we keep trying the same basic stuff from week to week.

    As far as the offensive line goes though, they just don't pass the eye test. When they go up against a good pass rushing team, they get smoked.
     
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  11. Poppa San

    Poppa San SB I trophy First of four Staff Member Moderator

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    When the receivers are doubled team, one defender takes away the inside route which also eliminates the slant or any other quick pass. Screens and draws work best when the LB are rushing the passer. Otherwise they just sit behind the line and flow to the ball.
     
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  12. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    So there is never an occasion when we can use a screen or draw? I can count on one hand the # of times this year. As far as the double teaming it seems strange that we can't design plays to draw the double coverage elsewhere and still do that. The slant seemed to disappear about the time Driver left the lineup.

    I think McCarthy's play calling has been too much max protection, which has had mixed results and he is relying too much on the long pass.
     
  13. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    I don't think McCarthy's play-calling has been that bad.
    I'd give him a B for the year so far......

    I just want it to pump up an 'A' when January gets here.
     
  14. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    We don't have the worst O-Line in the league but that doesn't mean it's not problematic. It has hampered our offense this year. I believe, don't know if this stat is still true, that Rodgers is the most sacked QB in the league. That is a problem. I agree it's not as bad as we think but don't let that fool you into thinking we don't have a problem with our O-Line. I'm not as concerned about it as we finish the regular season but I am very concerned about it for the playoffs as we will face teams with great if not elite defenses. On a positive note, I have observed improvements in the O-Line but I think that has come with experience and learning to make adjustments and compensations.
     
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  15. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Who said it was bad??
     
  16. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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  17. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    ^
    Frank, I don't see the words bad in there. I see people posting that we need to develop some ways to help our offense play better with some nuances.
     
  18. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    It's just a fine line between trying to protect Rodgers with leaving in a 6th & 7th blocker, or getting more guys into the routes but leaving Rodgers exposed.

    Some people say "we aren't running the easy slants anymore" like McCarthy just forgot about them, but teams, and Rodgers sees this, often make that their key thing to stop. It DOES allow double moves, but our pass-pro often doesn't block long enough for double moves to develop.

    Then we have some fans saying.... "why's Rodgers holding onto the ball so long and getting sacked....."

    Some fans, too many, act like it's a video game, or that the defenses don't get paid, don't study, don't have a D-coordinator or something.

    When the OL guys lose their one-on-ones so often, it messes everything up.
     
  19. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    None of which you just said addresses the initial question I ask...Who said it was bad??
     
  20. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    if o line can protect AR super bowel bound
     
  21. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Another thing to note about our O-Line is this has been an issue for some time. I actually really started worrying about it mid to late season last year. But the problem goes further back than that. It goes back to the SB year although most people overlook it because the team won the SB. Injuries on the O-Line started their and have continued to become progressively worse. It's now something that can no longer be ignored. If we can still win playoff games and dare I even project a SB then fine, but we are taking one hell of a risk with Rodgers.
     
  22. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    Our O-Line is ****. How someone could rake that 11th is out of their f-in minds.
     
  23. Kitten

    Kitten Feline Cheesehead Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I can honestly say after tonight that our O-Line has improved. The Lions have a very good D, against our poor O-Line I was very nervous going into this game. But I can say for the first time in a long time I was impressed by what I saw tonight and I have hope for them. Congrats to the O-Line for their part in this win. It's been a while since I've been able to say that.
     
  24. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    We've definitely made better adjustments tonight. Newhouse was solid, Lang should replace EDS (who got pushed back all night) soon, Sitton seems to be crawling out of his slump, and Barclay will only get better
     
  25. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I love Barclay. He reminds me of tauscher. An off the radar guy who just steps in and gets the job done.
     
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