1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

Lovin' the Big Uglies

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by El Guapo, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    Is it the coach or the players??

    Obviously the answer is a mix of both, however, one can't look at everything that the Packers O-line has gone through this season and not think highly of Adam Stenavich. As players have gone down the quality of the O-line play has remained good or better. Last night against the Bears, with only Bakhtiari finishing the game in the same position that he started, they allowed no hits and no sacks.

    Kudos to the work those guys have put into their crafts and knowing all of the positions. Kudos to Stenavich for coaching them into position to be successful.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Dantés

    Dantés Gute Loot

    Messages:
    9,478
    Likes Received:
    1,094
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Packer Fan Since:
    2017
    An effective offensive line is the silent basis for so many great offenses.

    I've been pleased to be wrong about Billy Turner at tackle, where he's played well. And it's exciting to see Runyan come in and play well too-- he looks like a future fixture at one of the guard spots. Jenkins' versatility is invaluable, and the Patrick extension has been a major value.

    One thing about it-- this offensive system makes life a lot easier on these guys. McCarthy asked his tackles to block on an island a ton in an excessively imbalanced offense without the benefit of much play action.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. PikeBadger

    PikeBadger Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    3,488
    Likes Received:
    211
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Packer Fan Since:
    1963
    They’ve been incredible right from the opening game of the season. It’s been a constant shuffling and moving of pieces all season. Stenavich has earned a big raise in pay IMO.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    It's the resiliency that made me think that we could make do without Bakhtiari. Gutekunst has to be pretty excited about the future of the Packers guard positions. I expect that he will draft another right tackle in the 3rd or 4th round next season, with maybe a lower round center.
     
  5. XPack

    XPack Cheesehead

    Messages:
    3,062
    Likes Received:
    296
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Location:
    Garden State
    Packer Fan Since:
    2014
    For the some positions (QB, WR, CBs) coaches are the key.
    For some others like RB, Edge Rushing, O & D Lines...players are the key.

    It's a question of whether coaches design plays to the players (or) try to get players to fit their scheme. A hybrid version is key to success, but then some prefer to just do the later.
     
  6. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,366
    Likes Received:
    391
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2017
    Packer Fan Since:
    1996
    I remember seriously questioning LaFleur for letting James Campen go. Boy, was I wrong. Stenavich has been fantastic. The most impressive part to me is how he has multiple players ready to play multiple positions. Obviously a lot of that is player talent (Jenkins is rare), but clearly they’ve had a lot of preparation, and that’s coaching.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    21,433
    Likes Received:
    2,009
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Milwaukee
    Packer Fan Since:
    1975
    Corey prob walks now that they see what Jenkins can do
     
  8. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    If Stenovich can keep coaching up the low-to-mid round linemen, that leaves the 1st and 2nd round picks available for busts on the defensive side of the ball! :D
     
  9. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    2,451
    Likes Received:
    120
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Being in the college ranks not too long ago; I wonder if Stenovich gives his input on draft picks. I definitely think we have better run blocking since he has been here. And pass blocking has not suffered.
     
  10. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    Well it's definitely a different blocking scheme too.
     
  11. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    334
    Joined:
    May 2, 2012
    Packer Fan Since:
    1986
    It isn't just Jenkins, they have experience in Patrick and Hanson draftee is a guy I really love for our system. We have three guys without Linsley to step in and up, he is gone for sure. Center position is a very interesting one for us next year. I think roster shifts and cuts could make Jenkins be anywhere except LT with Bahk extension.

    In all honesty, there is a world where our 2021 starting line up could very well boast 3 on rookie contracts - talk about effective and fiscally awesome for a time.
     
  12. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

    Messages:
    2,516
    Likes Received:
    193
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Packer Fan Since:
    1990
    This still hurts.

    However, I will happily report that our last 3 defensive first rounders are starting to look pretty solid.
     
  13. weeds

    weeds Fiber deprived old guy.

    Messages:
    3,966
    Likes Received:
    626
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Location:
    Oshkosh, WI
    Packer Fan Since:
    1965
    Excellent post EG... I've always loved me some big fat guys up front. These guys are buying in and doing their job...as well as a few other people's jobs.
     
  14. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    2,451
    Likes Received:
    120
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Serious here. I would like to know the differences if you've got the time. I see more attempt at getting to that 2nd level.
     
  15. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    Even though I played the line in high school, I am certainly no expert. I am purely referring to the fact that LeFluer brought in Stenovich to switch over to the zone blocking scheme. Billy Turner was brought in to have a more athletic/versatile right tackle. Jenkins was drafted for the same reason at guard. The big guys need to be more mobile to execute the ZBS. I think that's part of the reason why you see them getting to the 2nd level. The other side of that coin is that if everyone effectively handles their individual blocks, then you can get to the second level. If you need to double-team then the linebackers can flow unmolested to the ball carrier.

    Anything more detailed will need to come from some of our more educated forum members.
     
  16. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    104
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    The part of this that confuses me is we've been a zone scheme back to McCarthy. I don't see that part a significant change.
     
  17. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    2,451
    Likes Received:
    120
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    I think what they do better to get to the 2nd level these days is to sometimes chip just enough so the hole is there and then let that player go and look for linebackers and safeties. I think before they may have been told to stay with their block and so rarely got to the 2nd level.
     
  18. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    Not quite. Running primarily a west coast offense, McCarthy used a blended model that leaned more towards a power running scheme than zone blocking scheme. He also had bigger linemen that were suited for more of a power running scheme. As I mentioned earlier, Gute and LeFleur have been bringing in more agile linemen to run the ZBS.

    In the power scheme, the play-side offensive linemen all have specific gaps to block. They are all told to down block, meaning to block the gap away from the play side of the run. Their first rule is to block a man in their back-side gap, or work to the second level if they have no defender in their gap. The running back has a bit more freedom in the power scheme. His initial instruction is to follow his lead blockers, the fullback and the pulling guard. But once he gets to the hole, he’s given more freedom to run to daylight.

    In the zone scheme, the offensive line works tandem blocks to help the smaller offensive linemen deal with the bigger defensive linemen. On the play side of the run, the blockers kick out the edge defenders. The back-side blockers are taught to seal their blocks inside. When both the play-side and back-side blocks are executed properly, it creates one big cutback lane for the running back. In the zone scheme, the running back has specific reads he has to make, which determine precisely where he should aim to cut back to. The running back’s first job in the zone scheme is to identify the end man on the line of scrimmage (EMOLS). The back always has a specific aiming point. Every stretch play will start with the running back aiming to the tight end. The runner will read the EMOLS defender, and his position will tell the back if he should continue on his path to the edge or cut back inside. If the first read tells the back to cut inside, then the back moves on to his second read. His second read is the first defender between the EMOLS and the center on the play side of the run. The back again reads the defender’s position, which tells him to cut further back inside or go outside.

    There are probably some good videos out there that illustrate the differences better than I can write it. The way the O-line executes its blocks are different and therefore can be a tough transition for guys that have mostly done it one way or the other. Some of those guys are smart enough to change, others not so much. A good GM/coach has to assess each lineman's ability and decide who fits the new scheme. I think the Packers staff has done that pretty well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 2
  19. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    104
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    WCO has more to do with passing concepts than running, but really, McCarthy was all in on a zone running scheme.

    https://www.packers.com/news/mccarthy-run-game-requires-commitment-2452348

    "The lead zone-blocking scheme is our primary run," McCarthy said. "I've always been a power person in the past, I've always believed in a power play. But through conversations with Jeff and our offensive staff, we felt this better suited our football team.

    "It's an aggressive downhill style, cutting them on the backside and things like that. It definitely fits the identity of our football team."

    https://www.twincities.com/2006/12/20/mccarthy-committed-to-zone-blocking/
    Behind a paywall, so sorry. Article should be sufficient.

    https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928877/alex-gibbs-seahawks-broncos-texans-nfl-zone-blocking


    The McCarthy O-Lines were never particularly big, nor particularly small. If anything, they had a habit of drafting college LTs that weren't going to hack it at NFL LTs (Sitton, Lang, Trettor, College, Moll) and turning them into interior lineman. Lacking the typical "pop" of traditional guards, our athletic converts were custom made for the zone scheme.

    Hell, this very forum was quite annoyed we didn't, to paraphrase, "man up and run a power scheme."
     
  20. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    I agree about them always drafing LTs. Those aren't exactly the athletic types suited for a ZBS. You may have found a few articles from 2006 saying that he wanted to switch to a ZBS, but the reality as I pointed out is that it was more of a hybrid. We all know that McCarthy never fully committed to the running game even when he had Eddie Lacy. I guess that I could give McCarthy credit for trying to use running schemes that matched his backs, but his approach rarely yielded success from a strategic standpoint...only if the RB played great. The Packers really ran zone schemes, gap schemes, and power schemes under McCarthy. It was constantly evolving but never materializing.

    Maybe that is the simple genius of LeFleur at the moment, is committing to one style and doing it well - a throwback to Lombardi one might say. However, when you stay the same defenses will eventually figure you out.
     
  21. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    104
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Committing to running has about 0 to do with the scheme being power vs. zone.

    I'm not going to say that McCarthy never ran power schemes, but they were predominantly a zone team for his entire tenure. Eddie Lacey tosses, that many complained about, designed for the cutback lane. One wouldn't expect Eddie to turn the corner often, it was about getting flow going one way to help create a natural cutback lane.

    Also, power/gap is largely the same thing, or power a subset of gap. Typically at the pro level, power usually implies the backside guard leading up in the hole or kicking out the playside end. Depending on the scheme, power can just be the generic term for kickout concepts, regardless of who is doing it. It's still "running, take the ball through this hole."

    I'd really like to understand why you think he wasn't big on zone runs. Stats would be nice if you have them, but even what game(s) or trends you perceive and why.
     
  22. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    I don't have stats for it, that was my perception from watching his system all of these years. I did go out and take a look on the internet, but did not see that anyone has tracked such a stat. I never claimed to be an expert, in fact, in Post #15 above I stated quite the opposite. I'll pipe down if the consensus is that he predominantly ran a ZBS. No need to have me drawn and quartered yet.
     
  23. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    104
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Heh, you'll know if I'm intending to come after you, which is not my intent. I was legitimately asking for your point of view with that closing line--attempt to continue a discussion and understand your point of view. Like an adult, as I presume you are also an adult ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

    Messages:
    4,771
    Likes Received:
    556
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Location:
    Land 'O Lakes
    Packer Fan Since:
    1976
    Maybe I just noticed more of the power runs than I did the zone runs. I think that we could safely agree that the O-linemen in McCarthy's tenure were best at pass blocking versus run blocking.
     
  25. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    104
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2011
    Location:
    Madison, WI
    100% on better pass blockers than run blockers. I believe that comes down to converting a lot of LTs.

    Great pass protectors, not the guys to knock a DT off the ball at the snap. (Which is part of the reason, I think, he was a zone guy. You don’t have earth movers, you have dancers. Zone, in particular outside zone, let’s them move to a spot and not move a big guy)
     

Share This Page

-->