Josh Jones at ILB?

GreenBaySlacker

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You completely misunderstand the concept of blitzing. Teams want to create pressure rushing only four defenders to be able to drop seven into coverage. There's no reason to send an additional pass rusher if you're capable of doing that.

Unfortunately the Packers don't have a dominant front seven forcing Capers to blitz more often.

I think we are there. We have enough big men to play 3 down linemen more often with a good rotation. We have two olbs making 27 mil$. They better be good. And we have Ryan/Martinez/Thomas/ and maybe Jones, to cover every aspect of the ilb position. I really like Ryan. Martinez is good against the run and Thomas against the pass. Jones for nickel.
 
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Are you aware that we have to guess one way or another, and pick a formation off that guess?
You may lean one or another in putting certain personnel packages on the field, but for the majority of plays you have to be in a position to react to either run or pass.

Nickel is the go-to all-purpose defense in Packerland and the rest of the league nowadays as the personnel package that can best react to run or pass. You don't guess what it will be when you sub in a nickel package these days, which happens to be about 70% of the time in Packerland, and increasingly around the league. Nickel is the Swiss Army knife of NFL football. You then read and adjust at the line.

And what separates great players from good ones and good ones from the mediocre isn't just their 40 times or their cone drills: it's the degree to which they successfully read pre-snap and react post-snap.
 
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Because I believe 3 dlineman need to try to do the job of 4, to truly make the 3-4 a dominant scheme.

Another misconception of yours as defensive ends in a 4-3 are basically the same size as outside linebackers in a 3-4.
 
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brandon2348

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Well we don't really have an "elephant" on the roster so I would expect a change or changes or at least a variance to what the Packers do on D.

What that is were just gonna have to wait and find out.
 

mradtke66

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Well in my strong opinion, Daniels, Clark, Guion, and Francois will collapse the pocket. That's how sacks are born...

No, that's not how they are born. Certainly helps though. If all you do is push the pocket, you're still not threatening the QB without an edge rush. And if it's a shotgun with a quick throw, all the pocket pushing in the world won't be enough.

Also: Clark hasn't shown much as a rusher. And Guion is over the hill, suspended week 1, and may not even make the roster this year.

What 3 lbs can cover??? Mathews, Ryan, and rookie Jones. You don't think they are good in coverage?

But 2 of those three a crappy coverage players and the third will be run over on handoffs.

Also: don't you want Matthews rushing nearly ever play?

As far as every blitz heavy scheme getting destroyed? Referencing a team from 32 years ago who lost one game??? Not impressed... you are claiming that every team that blitzes over the 30% average get destroyed like clock work across the NFL for the last 30+ years?

Ugh, you're getting hung up here. But fine. Remember the Bob Slovik defense? I do. Yes. EVERY. TEAM. That blitzes much more than 30% will fail.

I referenced the 46 defense, because what you are describing in concept and alignment is more or less the 46 defense. Three linemen covering up the G, C, G. Two edge rushers. Bring the SS up into the box. Send 5 or more reliably. And no one does it anymore.

Why did the 46 work? The league was very, very run first. So 8 men in the box made it hard to run. So then you want to throw, right? But most of the league didn't have a heavy dose of straight drop back passing. It mostly ran off of playaction. But the whole defense shut that down.

Why doesn't it work anymore? Like I started with, the Dolphins. The entire league can come out and run 3-step drop, WCO concepts. Every offense has it. Quick passes that can beat the rush stop it. Alternative personnel packages also kill it. 46 works great against base alignments with 2WR, 1 TE, and 2RB. But those are used less frequently these days. Against 3WR, 1TE, 1RB, the 46 defense has lost the moment you break the huddle. Against empty sets, you're completely toast.

But lets play a simple game. You want to play base more? Draw up for me who is playing, where they are playing, and what their responsibilities are against a 3WT, 1TE, 1RB grouping. Assume 1st and 10, at about the 40 yard line. What's your playcall?
 

Poppa San

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Our secondary can cover 4 with 6...
Which team are you talking about again? I KNOW GB wasn't able to cover 5 with 8 consistently. And 4 with 6 not nearly as often. Of course that was QB dependent also. If they COULD cover 4 with 6, why would Ted have invested in more DBs?
 

n4t

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Capers is not going to start putting 3 DL on the field on passing downs. It simply isn't going to happen, for obvious and logical reasons. Because its so obvious and logical, no DC is doing it.

We don't have DEs. So you are advocating putting 3 fat guys on the field. Just so you understand what you're saying, because you don't seem to.
 

pizzle

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I think we are there. We have enough big men to play 3 down linemen more often with a good rotation. We have two olbs making 27 mil$. They better be good. And we have Ryan/Martinez/Thomas/ and maybe Jones, to cover every aspect of the ilb position. I really like Ryan. Martinez is good against the run and Thomas against the pass. Jones for nickel.
All these possibilities are exciting for me and I would like to see Randle moved inside. I would like to note that Jones is bigger then Burnett by about 10 pounds. He is pretty close to the size of Joe Thomas.

I think it comes down to how long it takes Jones to pick everything up.


My ideal scenario is for Randall to be moved inside as Micah's real replacement at nickelback. Have King and House start outside. Let Jones be the wildcard.


A possible way the defense looks this coming season:


We're playing Seattle. They come out in 22 personnel on 1st down. We have a "standard 3-4" appearance with Daniels. Clark, and Price up front. Ryan/Martinez in the middle, Clay & Nick @ OLB. However, the back-end consists of King, Jones, Morgan and Ha-Ha. Big Nickel. They show power run look, but PA Pass. We shut it down for non-completion. On 2nd-and 10, they go to 12 personnel, we counter by taking out Ryan and bringing in House, taking Jones from extra safety look that Sean Richardson used to give us in similar scenario to replacing Martinez's spot in box & Blake sliding over, becoming the MIKE. They go with inside run. We nullify it near LOS. On 3rd-and-long, they go 10 personnel. We switch out 3 DL for Adams and Lowry. We also take out Blake and bring in both Randall and Rollins. King, House outside-Randall and Rollins inside at corner. Jones is now the "Money" backer, with Clay mimicking a "shark"-playing the MIKE role but also wading around LOS-threatening multiple gaps. Jayrone comes in for Nick, but lines up where Clay vacates. Lowry is between RT/RG in 4i tech; Adams in 2i tech between C/LG. Morgan and Ha-Ha are giving two-deep shell look. Once QB begins cadence/identifies #52 as MIKE, Clay saunters slowly over to the left side, getting almost directly behind Dean. As ball is snapped, Lowry and Adams both shoot inside. C/LG double Adams, but he gets good push. Jayrone blows by LT (RB has to attempt a quick chip and leak out for dump off pass). RG takes step outside to try and slow down Dean, but he has a shoulder/arm free and is within vision of hurried QB. Clay darts out wide, attacking outside shoulder of RT, who is shuffling nervously to nullify his rush. The QB, seeing all this activity in his peripheral, feels the pressure and speeds up clock in his head. Jones is backpedaling, mirroring eyes/shoulders/feet of QB and ready to pounce on anything in the middle/near 1st down marker. Secondary as a whole plays 2-man under, and everyone is glued to their guy with both our deep safeties in prime position to stop a deep shot. Perfect example of WRs being plastered. QB tosses ball out to flat, near RB but off-target for incompletion. 3 & out.

If we could do that consistently enough, we might just have a good D in 2017-'18.
 
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mradtke66

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Big Nickel. They show power run look, but PA Pass.

That's not nickel! You have 4 in the secondary, that's base.

And why the hell would anyone playpass against that? If they are in base and you only have one cornerback on the field, one of their WRs it gonna be open. Throw it to him straight up. Withdrawn, you clearly said 22 personnel.

On 2nd-and 10, they go to 12 personnel, we counter by taking out Ryan and bringing in House, taking Jones from extra safety look that Sean Richardson used to give us in similar scenario to replacing Martinez's spot in box & Blake sliding over, becoming the MIKE.

So you've kept the two smallest guys at inside linebacker and in your fantasy land, we stop the run???? I'd like whatever it is you're having.

That said, a nickel backfield with 3 safeties isn't a terrible idea against 2TE.

On 3rd-and-long, they go 10 personnel.
We switch out 3 DL for Adams and Lowry.

Reasonable so far.

We also take out Blake and bring in both Randall and Rollins. King, House outside-Randall and Rollins inside at corner. Jones is now the "Money" backer,

I'm with you so far, this is shaping up to be a reasonable dime set.

with Clay mimicking a "shark"-playing the MIKE role but also wading around LOS-threatening multiple gaps.

Which is it? Is Matthews the inside backer or is Jones? Is the the Mike or a blitzer? You've started slightly off the rails here, but his could just be a communication error.

Jayrone comes in for Nick, but lines up where Clay vacates.

When did Perry come out? And it what world are you taking your best pass rusher from last year off the field in a near 100% pass rushing situation? Why would you do this?!

Lowry is between RT/RG in 4i tech; Adams in 2i tech between C/LG. Morgan and Ha-Ha are giving two-deep shell look. Once QB begins cadence/identifies #52 as MIKE, Clay saunters slowly over to the left side, getting almost directly behind Dean.

Okay, for you front 4 is Matthews, Lowry, Adams, and Elliot? You've got the right body types, but three of those guys aren't necessarily my first choice for dime rushers, but it isn't terrible.

Also: Matthews starting in the middle and sliding out to left end isn't going to confuse many blocking schemes. It'd all but assumed he'd end up there based on the alignment of the DT to his side (Lowry.)

Jones as the Dime backer,that's fine too.

Man-2 in the backend is fine too.

This is a perfectly reasonable approach. Of course 3-10 is a heck of a lot easier to call than most down and distance.

As ball is snapped, Lowry and Adams both shoot inside. C/LG double Adams, but he gets good push. Jayrone blows by LT (RB has to attempt a quick chip and leak out for dump off pass). RG takes step outside to try and slow down Dean, but he has a shoulder/arm free and is within vision of hurried QB. Clay darts out wide, attacking outside shoulder of RT, who is shuffling nervously to nullify his rush. The QB, seeing all this activity in his peripheral, feels the pressure and speeds up clock in his head. Jones is backpedaling, mirroring eyes/shoulders/feet of QB and ready to pounce on anything in the middle/near 1st down marker. Secondary as a whole plays 2-man under, and everyone is glued to their man with both our deep safeties in prime position to stop a deep shot. Perfect example of WRs being plastered. QB tosses ball out to flat, near RB but off-target for incompletion. 3 & out.

That's a script for a movie, not really a play call and it all works a little to perfect. Sure, that's what you want, but it's never quite that simple. What if they run trips to one side? Trips and then motion the RB?

You're playing Man-2 with dime personnel. It should be fine.
 

easyk83

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When did Perry come out? And it what world are you taking your best pass rusher from last year off the field in a near 100% pass rushing situation? Why would you do this?!

Overthinking is my guess. I'd want Matthews(if healthy) Perry and Daniels for sure and then whoever is 4th best. Based off the journalists who cover the Packers, apparently Lowry is going to turn some heads this year.
 

mradtke66

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Overthinking is my guess. I'd want Matthews(if healthy) Perry and Daniels for sure and then whoever is 4th best. Based off the journalists who cover the Packers, apparently Lowry is going to turn some heads this year.

I'm not dissing Lowry, he showed some good things as a rusher last year.

A nickel and dime front of Matthews, Perry, Daniels, and Lowry would make me pretty happy (based solely on returning players.)

No idea if this new Adams can hack it as a rusher. He looks good on paper though.
 

Patriotplayer90

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Overthinking is my guess. I'd want Matthews(if healthy) Perry and Daniels for sure and then whoever is 4th best. Based off the journalists who cover the Packers, apparently Lowry is going to turn some heads this year.
If you buy into PFF, Lowry had a good rookie season. He and Clark were basically neck and neck as far as their grades go, which were above average.
 

Curly Calhoun

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Green Bay has a tendency to have its players learn multiple positions, and Jones looks like a good fit for that. Other teams are doing similar things as well, so this appears to be a trend in the NFL.
Yeah. It's becoming more and more prevalent to have players cross trained.
I still think it's time to adjust the # of active, roster or practice squad players in order to balance for these more progressive injury protocols
 

rodell330

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I like the ideal of moving Jones into a similar role Burnett played. Especially on passing downs. Or even against teams with good tight ends. We all know that none of the olbs can seem to be able to cover anyone. I thought Martinez would be the guy but he got pulled on passing downs in favor of Thomas and Ryan.

I'd love to see Capers go back to man to man bump and run on the outside like when we had Woodson and Harris. All this vanilla zone stuff with these little corners has to go. Teams have just gashed that defense. I honestly would love to see King and House take over the #1 and #2 spots and move Randall to the inside..only thing with that is Randall would be more involved in the run game and he can't tackle. Maybe another corner emerges during pre season like Hawkins and they can put him in the slot. He's probably the fastest of the group.
 
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brandon2348

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I like the ideal of moving Jones into a similar role Burnett played. Especially on passing downs. Or even against teams with good tight ends. We all know that none of the olbs can seem to be able to cover anyone. I thought Martinez would be the guy but he got pulled on passing downs in favor of Thomas and Ryan.

I'd love to see Capers go back to man to man bump and run on the outside like when we had Woodson and Harris. All this vanilla zone stuff with these little corners has to go. Teams have just gashed that defense. I honestly would love to see King and House take over the #1 and #2 spots and move Randall to the inside..only thing with that is Randall would be more involved in the run game and he can't tackle. Maybe another corner emerges during pre season like Hawkins and they can put him in the slot. He's probably the fastest of the group.

I like Hawkins in the slot over Rollins but my fear is they will fully exhaust playing Rollins there because he was drafted in second round.
 

Curly Calhoun

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Yeah. It's becoming more and more prevalent to have players cross trained.
I still think it's time to adjust the # of active, roster or practice squad players in order to balance for these more progressive injury protocols

They did recently expand the number of players a team can have on the practice squad - I also would favor a corresponding expansion of the active roster and game-day eligibles. It's a rough game, people get hurt.
 

pizzle

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I like the ideal of moving Jones into a similar role Burnett played. Especially on passing downs. Or even against teams with good tight ends. We all know that none of the olbs can seem to be able to cover anyone. I thought Martinez would be the guy but he got pulled on passing downs in favor of Thomas and Ryan.

I'd love to see Capers go back to man to man bump and run on the outside like when we had Woodson and Harris. All this vanilla zone stuff with these little corners has to go. Teams have just gashed that defense. I honestly would love to see King and House take over the #1 and #2 spots and move Randall to the inside..only thing with that is Randall would be more involved in the run game and he can't tackle. Maybe another corner emerges during pre season like Hawkins and they can put him in the slot. He's probably the fastest of the group.


TBH, much of what you said is where I think our defense is headed. From what I'm getting-due to some of the moves (or lack thereof) that Ted has made so far this offseason-Dom must have told him "Ok, let's try to go this way with the D-back to the future".

Clay is "alright at times" covering, but no-one else has shown any propensity for it in the OLB group. More importantly, our newest "big money guy" (Perry) is horrible at it. And our ILBs minus Thomas don't match up speed-wise to be relied on for quality pass coverage either. So Jones is gonna be a BIG part of the defense. He will replace much of the "safety" aspects of what Hyde did for us, with R&R replacing much of the "slot corner" apsects. The bonus is that since he's also bigger, he may be effective as an in-the-box defender, which will allow him to replace/join Burnett there in certain instances. I think if that does occur, it will open up our D to be able to have very impactful 6,7, and MAYBE even 8-DB looks designed to hinder 10/11 personnel and EMPTY/5-WIDE sets

*...5 MINS left in the 4th. We're up by twenty on New Orleans. Brees and Payton are trying to bring on an aerial barrage. AP hasn't cracked us for a big one all game, so they hang him up for the remainder and go 5-WIDE on us. Clay got 1.5 sacks and 4 nice tackles earlier, but already hit his snap-count threshold so with a big lead and him relatively unscathed health-wise he's not coming back in. So Dom counters the Saints with Jayrone at ROLB, Fackrell at LOLB, and Lowry at 1 tech (flipping from left to right shade about every snap) up front. Nick and Daniels rotate in on 3rd/4th downs. In the back end, we've got King, House, R&R, Gunter, Jones, Burnett, and Ha-Ha. Brice subs in for Morgan/Jones on a couple of snaps, too. The secondary is looking like an amoeba. Bump-and-run Cover 1 with Jones and Burnett lined up 3x7 from the center as middle-to-boundary zone patrolers & Ha-Ha in the middle and over the top 12 yards off the LOS. 2-Man Under with Jones as Money-backer/HHCD+Morgan in 2-deep shell, then same 2-Man Under but Jones and Morgan reverse roles, then Cover 4 with corners off/Jones & Burnett both in-the-box as ILBs but back-pedaling hard and deep/Ha-Ha lurking close threatening to blitz/Randall playing super deep like a safety. Cover 3 that appears at the snap to be cover 2, with Burnett and Ha-Ha swinging in deep middle like a pendulum in order to mask the "spy/lurk" defender. Cover 0 with all 3 safeties joining our 3-man front to attack Drew. On paper, it sounds glorious...*

No more elephants-instead more 3 DL "base front" looks so young guys like Clark, Lowry, and Price are accentuated defensively

They want to go back to the Woodson/Harris m2m bump-and-run days. That's why we brought House back and targeted only 1 corner (King) in the draft high. I thought all along that it would be Randall/Rollins replacing Hyde, and I think we're seeing that in the personnel maneuvers

The one thing I don't necessarily see, or want to, is Hawkins. Sure-he's got speed. But I've seen him get burnt badly, and don't trust him as an outside corner, or to be able to read route combos well enough to play slot. I'd only feel comfortable with him playing a man vs crossing routes, since he's so fast he can prolly keep up with someone in those situations. I don't think he makes the 53 honestly. I see 10 DBs making it. King, House, R&R, Gunter, Jones, Morgan, HHCD, Evans, Brice. Any other DBs that look good in TC/GB decides to keep are going on the PS, including Waters.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Well we don't really have an "elephant" on the roster so I would expect a change or changes or at least a variance to what the Packers do on D.

What that is were just gonna have to wait and find out.
Maybe Fackrell packed on 30 lbs. in the offseason. ;)
 

mradtke66

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No more elephants-instead more 3 DL "base front" looks so young guys like Clark, Lowry, and Price are accentuated defensively

I don't think Capers necessarily wanted to use elephants as much as he did, he just had a couple of useful pieces in Datone and Peppers. Using them as elephants was just the best way to use them.

Not having them (or other guys with similar body types) probably doesn't really change how Capers plays nickel. Go back to 2009/2010--our other OLB was Jones, Walden, Zombo...nothing really earth shattering. Still played a whole lot of 2-4 nickel.
 

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They did recently expand the number of players a team can have on the practice squad - I also would favor a corresponding expansion of the active roster and game-day eligibles. It's a rough game, people get hurt.
I'd be interested to see what the players union thinks about that.
 
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I like Hawkins in the slot over Rollins but my fear is they will fully exhaust playing Rollins there because he was drafted in second round.

I know you were impressed by Hawkins last offseason but the only thing I remember is him getting burned badly by Marvin Jones on a 70+ yard touchdown receptions on one of only a handful of snaps he played last season.

Clay is "alright at times" covering, but no-one else has shown any propensity for it in the OLB group. More importantly, our newest "big money guy" (Perry) is horrible at it. And our ILBs minus Thomas don't match up speed-wise to be relied on for quality pass coverage either. So Jones is gonna be a BIG part of the defense. He will replace much of the "safety" aspects of what Hyde did for us, with R&R replacing much of the "slot corner" apsects. The bonus is that since he's also bigger, he may be effective as an in-the-box defender, which will allow him to replace/join Burnett there in certain instances. I think if that does occur, it will open up our D to be able to have very impactful 6,7, and MAYBE even 8-DB looks designed to hinder 10/11 personnel and EMPTY/5-WIDE sets

Matthews and Perry dropped into coverage on only 3.8% of their snaps last season therefore there's no reason to get overly concerned about their ability doing it.

It doesn't make any sense to have eight defensive backs on the field as the offense is only allowed to have five eligible pass catchers on the field.
 

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