Is Mason Crosby Headed for the Bone Yard?

[Pokerbrat2000]

Better play is a result of coaching. If play hasn't been improved (hasn't for nearly 20 years), then coaching is the issue

Again, I am not disputing that Drayton shouldn't bare the blame for a lot of this, but he isn't the one playing. When you got guys snapping the ball wrong, getting hit by a punt, or missing a block, that is also poor execution by guys that are getting paid a crap load of money to do their jobs. I call these things "unforced errors" and the Packers have had plenty of them. No coach can really scheme up something to protect them from making those mistakes, i.e. they weren't made as a result of a player on the other team making a great play or the coach (Drayton) drawing up the play wrong. Can a coach help them to stop making unforced errors, sure, but they will still exist, even with the greatest coach.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Again, I am not disputing that Drayton shouldn't bare the blame for a lot of this, but he isn't the one playing. When you got guys snapping the ball wrong, getting hit by a punt, or missing a block, that is also poor execution by guys that are getting paid a crap load of money to do their jobs. I call these things "unforced errors" and the Packers have had plenty of them. No coach can really scheme up something to protect them from making those mistakes, i.e. they weren't made as a result of a player on the other team making a great play or the coach (Drayton) drawing up the play wrong. Can a coach help them to stop making unforced errors, sure, but they will still exist, even with the greatest coach.

In my opinion the coaches shouldn't be blamed for mistakes happening on rare occasions as they are bound to happen at some point.

At the rate they have happened on special teams with the Packers this year it should definitely be attributed to coaching though.

 

[Voyageur]

Crosby will probably still be on the team for 2022. His contract is rather large, but so much of it would be dead cap by cutting him, that it would be a problem. Crosby Cap Hit

That said. During this season they've changed holder and long snapper, at different times. Both effect the kicks. Crosby is not the problem, the timing of the changes is the problem. He's going to be fine, but our special teams are once again a disaster area. Coaching? That's part of it. Talent available? That's part of it. We don't have the depth on the roster to be able to afford to put better athletes out there on those teams. In fact, I don't think the Packers even use the approach of having 3 to 5 guys on the roster who feast off special teams.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't think the Packers even use the approach of having 3 to 5 guys on the roster who feast off special teams.

It would appear that way. But is that by design or as a result of poor coaching?

 

[Voyageur]

It would appear that way. But is that by design or as a result of poor coaching?

I don't have a clue to be honest. I think that it's probably a combination of both, along with a reluctance by Matt to use some of his better players out there due to fear of injury.

But, that's just my opinion.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't have a clue to be honest. I think that it's probably a combination of both, along with a reluctance by Matt to use some of his better players out there due to fear of injury.

But, that's just my opinion.

I don't follow other teams very closely, but our special teams under McCarthy for the most part sucked as well, what was his philosophy with using better players? What are other coaches around the NFL doing? Again, I don't follow other teams that closely, but close enough that besides an occasional starter that returns punts or kicks, I don't see a lot of "big names" on other teams special teams.

I really wouldn't want to risk injuries to guys like Adams, Alexander, Gary, Bahk, etc. just to try and improve special teams. Unless its a special situation, like an obvious onside kick. I also don't think those guys would be so happy doing it either, I could be wrong. Especially given the fact they just came off the field on Defense or just going on to the field on offense. Not the most optimal use of your top players.

 

[Voyageur]

I don't follow other teams very closely, but our special teams under McCarthy for the most part sucked as well, what was his philosophy with using better players? What are other coaches around the NFL doing? Again, I don't follow other teams that closely, but close enough that besides an occasional starter that returns punts or kicks, I don't see a lot of "big names" on other teams special teams.

I really wouldn't want to risk injuries to guys like Adams, Alexander, Gary, Bahk, etc. just to try and improve special teams. Unless its a special situation, like an obvious onside kick. I also don't think those guys would be so happy doing it either, I could be wrong. Especially given the fact they just came off the field on Defense or just going on to the field on offense. Not the most optimal use of your top players.

I think the question may be more along the lines of not having better players available for special teams, without dipping into the major players group. I'd think more of a lack of talent depth, and the athleticism that goes with the job. As I look at other teams, they have some "specialists," like gunners, who are table setters. Then there's usually an animal who blows up things in the middle on coverage teams.

As far as returns, I just can't understand why our kick return people don't just make sure the ball gets into the end zone so we get it on the 25. It seems like every time they try to run one out, we get a penalty, and start around the 10 yard line. On punts, we don't get returns, just penalties. Coaches need to drill it into their heads that you do not block in the back, or hold, because it's worse than blowing the block.

Anyhow, just my opinions based on my observations. Not being privy to what's discussed in their meetings, or in positional meetings, I'm just guessing.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I also think it has a lot to do with practice time and the way things have evolved into less contact and fewer practices for teams. The starters on offense and defense need to get their reps in at practice. It would be pretty disruptive and probably not as efficient to take time at each practice to break up those units so they can practice special teams. Much like why they use the punter and designated LS for FG's and XP's.

This gives a Special teams coach more time with his units to have meetings, practices, etc.. Time with guys that may not see the field that day, except to play on special teams. Let's face it, a guy like Jeff Janis was a much better special teams player, than he was a WR.

 

[Voyageur]

I also think it has a lot to do with practice time and the way things have evolved into less contact and fewer practices for teams. The starters on offense and defense need to get their reps in at practice. It would be pretty disruptive and probably not as efficient to take time at each practice to break up those units so they can practice special teams. Much like why they use the punter and designated LS for FG's and XP's.

This gives a Special teams coach more time with his units to have meetings, practices, etc.. Time with guys that may not see the field that day, except to play on special teams. Let's face it, a guy like Jeff Janis was a much better special teams player, than he was a WR.

This will give you some of the guidelines to getting in special teams practice. I've always felt it was essential because you can actually create huge improvements in field position during the course of a game. Special Teams

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

This will give you some of the guidelines to getting in special teams practice. I've always felt it was essential because you can actually create huge improvements in field position during the course of a game. Special Teams

Oh there is no doubt in my mind that Special teams can become an important aspect of a game, but through both success and failure. So while watching the Packers over the last several years, I look for the Special teams to not make a costly mistake, more than I expect them to make a great play. For me a win-win is a fair catch or a TB. A long punt, that goes out of bounds inside the 5, etc.

 

[G0P4ckG0]

Oh there is no doubt in my mind that Special teams can become an important aspect of a game, but through both success and failure. So while watching the Packers over the last several years, I look for the Special teams to not make a costly mistake, more than I expect them to make a great play. For me a win-in is a fair catch or a TB. A long punt, that goes out of bounds inside the 5, etc.

Plus kickoff rules now GREATLY limit the odds of a touchdown return, so there isn't much emphasis placed on a returner's ability. It is now "If you can make a fair catch on a punt without muffing it, you are our guy"

 

[Half Empty]

KOR - Four TDs this year. Top return average for guys returning more than .5 game is 27.6

PR - Zero Tds this year. Three guys with at least one per game averaging double figures

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Plus kickoff rules now GREATLY limit the odds of a touchdown return, so there isn't much emphasis placed on a returner's ability. It is now "If you can make a fair catch on a punt without muffing it, you are our guy"

Right. That said, if a team is smart, when they play the Packers, they pop the kickoffs up high and just short of the goal line. This forces the Packers into returning the kick, something they do not excel at. For this reason, I am not a fan of the "fair catch rule" on kickoffs that they have in the NCAA, that is definitely for safety and maybe the NFL will soon adopt it as well. I rather like watching kick returns, but not so much when its the Packers returning them. When they do, I pray for no holding, block in the back or fumbles and to get the ball as close to the 25 as possible.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

KOR - Four TDs this year. Top return average for guys returning more than .5 game is 27.6

PR - Zero Tds this year. Three guys with at least one per game averaging double figures

The Packers Special teams units are so special, they don't look at stats like those. Although, I wouldn't be surprised to see them be a part of those stats, in the negative way of giving up the long yards and/or a TD.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Crosby will probably still be on the team for 2022. His contract is rather large, but so much of it would be dead cap by cutting him, that it would be a problem. Crosby Cap Hit

The Packers would still save $2.4 million of cap space by moving on from Crosby next offseason.

Talent available? That's part of it. We don't have the depth on the roster to be able to afford to put better athletes out there on those teams. In fact, I don't think the Packers even use the approach of having 3 to 5 guys on the roster who feast off special teams.

It's possible the Packers don't have more talent on special teams because players at the bottom of the roster entering this season have been forced to either play on offense or defense based on injuries.

 

[Voyageur]

The Packers would still save $2.4 million of cap space by moving on from Crosby next offseason.



It's possible the Packers don't have more talent on special teams because players at the bottom of the roster entering this season have been forced to either play on offense or defense based on injuries.

You actually mean that the Packers would reduce their cap by $2.4 million, but you failed to address the fact that out of that savings you indicate, they have to pay the salary of the guy that replaces him. That reduces that cap savings to nearly nothing.

I have no idea how having players at the bottom of the roster playing offense or defense would really effect special teams. I haven't seen too many substitutes that don't have double duty on their job description. In 1995, as an example, Desmond Howard was on the Packers roster as a wide receiver. He had 23 targets, 13 receptions, and less than 100 yards total. His whole purpose on the roster was to return punts and kicks. Not to belabor a point, but it's been a long time since I've seen a Packer special teams player that has been a stand out. Usually they are guys at the bottom of the roster who are trying to stick with the team while they develop their strength and skills to a level that they get more field time.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You actually mean that the Packers would reduce their cap by $2.4 million, but you failed to address the fact that out of that savings you indicate, they have to pay the salary of the guy that replaces him. That reduces that cap savings to nearly nothing.

The Packers could replace Crosby with a rookie next season who is making $705K resulting in net cap savings of $1.7 million at kicker.

I have no idea how having players at the bottom of the roster playing offense or defense would really effect special teams. I haven't seen too many substitutes that don't have double duty on their job description. In 1995, as an example, Desmond Howard was on the Packers roster as a wide receiver. He had 23 targets, 13 receptions, and less than 100 yards total. His whole purpose on the roster was to return punts and kicks. Not to belabor a point, but it's been a long time since I've seen a Packer special teams player that has been a stand out. Usually they are guys at the bottom of the roster who are trying to stick with the team while they develop their strength and skills to a level that they get more field time.

Let's take a look at Stokes as an example for my theory. During the first two games when he wasn't starting he received 28 of possible 45 snaps (62.2%) on special teams.

Since then he has only played six snaps on special teams over the past seven games.

 

[Voyageur]

The Packers could replace Crosby with a rookie next season who is making $705K resulting in net cap savings of $1.7 million at kicker.



Let's take a look at Stokes as an example for my theory. During the first two games when he wasn't starting he received 28 of possible 45 snaps (62.2%) on special teams.

Since then he has only played six snaps on special teams over the past seven games.

Very true on Stokes, but that's because he moved up the ladder to a starting position. Someone who fell in the order should be part of special teams.

To have good special teams, you need a coach who knows how to get the best out of the players available to him. I've always looked back at the Nolan Cromwell era in GB, when his STs were about as good as they get. He was adept at figuring out which players meshed together to be dynamic. Those days are long gone.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Very true on Stokes, but that's because he moved up the ladder to a starting position. Someone who fell in the order should be part of special teams.

The point I was trying to make is that Stokes moved up the depth chart because of injuries to Alexander and King resulting in a lesser talent player replacing Stokes on special teams.

I agree that coaching is partly to blame for the unit's struggles though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's possible the Packers don't have more talent on special teams because players at the bottom of the roster entering this season have been forced to either play on offense or defense based on injuries.

Just to chime in. I agree that injuries can influence your special teams and this season the Packers have seen their share of them. However, that doesn't explain past seasons, when injuries were relatively light and the special teams still sucked. Also, maybe my memory is selective, but I don't recall the special teams being that special to begin this season, when the Packers were healthy.

Injuries feel more like an excuse, when in reality it seems that poor execution by multiple players, including veteran players, has created bad results for the ST units. When that occurs, coaching should be considered as part of the problem.

 

[Voyageur]

Just to chime in. I agree that injuries can influence your special teams and this season the Packers have seen their share of them. However, that doesn't explain past seasons, when injuries were relatively light and the special teams still sucked. Also, maybe my memory is selective, but I don't recall the special teams being that special to begin this season, when the Packers were healthy.

Injuries feel more like an excuse, when in reality it seems that poor execution by multiple players, has created bad results for the ST units. When that occurs, coaching should be considered as part of the problem.

 

[G0P4ckG0]

Move on from Crosby with Rodgers. Keep Crosby with Love. That's my take

 

[lambeaulambo]

When they cut Crosby, and activate Moison, we need to find another Kicker from England to stash, and none of this violent golf net kicking..lol

 

[rodell330]

Was once a great kicker but he has become wayyyy too inconsistent and I don’t trust the guy anymore smh. His extra point attempts even make me nervous smh

 

[Voyageur]

Was once a great kicker but he has become wayyyy too inconsistent and I don’t trust the guy anymore smh. His extra point attempts even make me nervous smh

He's working with a new long snapper, and holder. Both were added with little time to get in sync. He only missed 2 out of his last 40 FG tries of any length over the 2 previous years, so I don't see anything that would make me believe he's lost it.

Of course the season isn't over, so we have to wait and see where it goes.