How is it that Capers still has a job with the Green Bay Packers?

PikeBadger

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As far as talent acquisition I agree Guion was a good signing, one that was necessary because of the lack of other options. Here are Thompson’s draft picks on the DL since Capers signed on in January of 2009:

Year: Round. #overall pick
2009: 1. #9 BJ Raji NT; 6. #182 Jarius Wynn DE
2010: 2. #56 Mike Neal DL; 7. #230 C.J. Wilson DE
2011: 7. #233 Lawrence Guy DT
2012: 2. #51 Jerel Worthy DT; 4. #132 Mike Daniels DT
2013: 1. #26 Datone Jones DE; 5. #167 Josh Boyd DT
2014: 3. #85 Khyri Thornton DT
2015: 6. #210 Christian Ringo DE

Many of us have, and have had questions about Raji for the past few seasons (BTW you don’t blame Capers for Raji not recording a tackle in preseason, do you?). In seven drafts two first rounders, two second rounders and a third rounder. It’s not as if Thompson has ignored DL, but look at the ‘opportunity cost’ of most of those picks. Of all those picks the most important player this season may be the fourth rounder.

I too am more optimistic about the DL than I have been in the past; I too have posted about the progress of Pennel and I think Gaston has considerable upside. But I believe the subject we’re assessing the job Capers has done. Which of the two, Whitt or Trgovac has been given more talent to work with? How does Capers' scheme - no matter what you think of it - impact the play of CBs vs. DL? IMO it looks more like a preconceived idea to give Whitt "all" the credit for CB play but believing "Daniels best coaching came at Iowa". How often and how closely have you observed Daniels and Trgo's relationship?

Imo, Trgovac has been given more talent to work with than any other position coach on the team.
As far as scheme impacting play of DL and CB, i think the play of the DL will generally have a positive or negative impact on the success of cornerbacks.

Your last point is correct. I do have a preconceived idea that Whitt is a very good CB coach and I also have a lot of respect for the quality of coaching at Iowa. At this point, I've become suspicious of Trgovac's ability to effectively coach DL. I'm hoping that Pennel, Boyd and Gaston change that.
 

TJV

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Imo, Trgovac has been given more talent to work with than any other position coach on the team.
You realize he coaches the defensive line, right? More talent than LBs (Matthews and Peppers have more talent than all the DL combined), more talent than the WRs (is Thompson known for succeeding at drafting DL or is it WRs? Try comparing the list of WRs he's drafted to the above list), more talent than even the CBs (since 2009 Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams, and Sam Shields have played CB - which DL was/is half as talented as Woodson?)? How about the QB position coach - has he had any talent to work with? The kindest honest thing I can think of posting about that statement is it's ridiculous.
 
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Imo, Trgovac has been given more talent to work with than any other position coach on the team.
As far as scheme impacting play of DL and CB, i think the play of the DL will generally have a positive or negative impact on the success of cornerbacks.

It seems like you're confusing high draft picks with the actual talent on the defensive line. It's true that Thompson has invested a ton of early rounders on the position but nevertheless hasn't brought in any significant impact players aside of Raji for a short period of time.

Mike Daniels has been by far the best DL on the team over the six years (aside of Cullen Jenkins who left in free agency after the Packers winning the Super Bowl) and I'm convinced with him being a fourth-rounder he was trenendously coached up by the team's defensive staff.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I have called for Capers to be fired in the past, so I am anything but an ardent Capers defender. My first serious post on this thread cited the stats of Capers’ Packers Ds that provide evidence which answered the question posed by the thread. Of course Capers isn't blameless for the problems on D, but those who post as though the only problem on that side of the ball is Dom Capers are misguided IMO. Thompson is responsible for the talent acquisition and one easy example of his failure in that regard is having no better option than MD Jennings at safety. That wasn’t Capers’ fault. Thompson and to some degree McCarthy share the blame of originally hiring and now retaining a DC whose schemes emphasize experience: We all know a central tenant of Thompson’s MO is having perpetually young teams and that poses an ongoing conflict to some degree. But the hiring did work very well for the first two seasons. And of course Capers is ultimately responsible for his assistants, and together they are responsible for in-game adjustments, how well or poorly the team tackles, and the “communication” problems we have witnessed during his tenure. So, there’s blame to go around. IMO only insiders who know the interaction of all the “players” (Thompson, McCarthy, Capers, etc.) can precisely assign blame for each shortcoming. Are you saying Capers didn’t give Jones a chance to start at DE in the base? That wasn’t the problem; the problem was Jones wasn’t stout enough vs. the run. What he has been capable of so far is providing pressure on the QB. If you are assigning blame regarding Jones I would start with Thompson and staff evaluating him as a full-time DE in the 3-4. I don’t think the problem was Capers deciding without evidence that Jones was ill-suited for DE in the base.

As far as talent acquisition I agree Guion was a good signing, one that was necessary because of the lack of other options. Here are Thompson’s draft picks on the DL since Capers signed on in January of 2009:

Year: Round. #overall pick
2009: 1. #9 BJ Raji NT; 6. #182 Jarius Wynn DE
2010: 2. #56 Mike Neal DL; 7. #230 C.J. Wilson DE
2011: 7. #233 Lawrence Guy DT
2012: 2. #51 Jerel Worthy DT; 4. #132 Mike Daniels DT
2013: 1. #26 Datone Jones DE; 5. #167 Josh Boyd DT
2014: 3. #85 Khyri Thornton DT
2015: 6. #210 Christian Ringo DE

Many of us have, and have had questions about Raji for the past few seasons (BTW you don’t blame Capers for Raji not recording a tackle in preseason, do you?). In seven drafts two first rounders, two second rounders and a third rounder. It’s not as if Thompson has ignored DL, but look at the ‘opportunity cost’ of most of those picks. Of all those picks the most important player this season may be the fourth rounder.

I too am more optimistic about the DL than I have been in the past; I too have posted about the progress of Pennel and I think Gaston has considerable upside. But I believe the subject we’re assessing the job Capers has done. Which of the two, Whitt or Trgovac has been given more talent to work with? How does Capers' scheme - no matter what you think of it - impact the play of CBs vs. DL? IMO it looks more like a preconceived idea to give Whitt "all" the credit for CB play but believing "Daniels best coaching came at Iowa". How often and how closely have you observed Daniels and Trgo's relationship?
Go, Pack, Go!

With opening day kickoff less than 2 hours away, I prefer to suspend broad analysis to focus on the game, or shall I say focus on the replay, perhaps tomorrow morning.

If your post is intended to be a collection of counterpoints to my arguments, there are parts of it I see that are in fact support for it. I see some misrepresentations. I see some self-contradictions, or shall we say "crosscurrents", in particular the statement, "IMO only insiders who know the interaction of all the “players” (Thompson, McCarthy, Capers, etc.) can precisely assign blame for each shortcoming" when you post is riddled with the opposite conclusions.

If you remind me of this post later in the week, we can get into it again.
 

TJV

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And you won't be surprised to know I see your posts on Capers to be biased by your near-hatred for him. Exhibit A is your placing all of the blame on Capers for the loss of the NFCCG in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary. That's a huge self-contradiction, as you are anything but objective on this subject. Respond to my post or don't but why would I bother to remind you?
Go Pack Go!
 
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HardRightEdge

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And you won't be surprised to know I see your posts on Capers to be biased by your near-hatred for him. Exhibit A is your placing all of the blame on Capers for the loss of the NFCCG in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary. That's a huge self-contradiction, as you are anything but objective on this subject. Respond to my post or don't but why would I bother to remind you?
Go Pack Go!
Go, Pack, Go! Go, Capers, go!

I would have preferred to wait until after the game to continue this discussion, but here we are.

I don't have "near hatred" for Capers. For all I know he's a very fine gentleman. Let's call it a distaste for a system tailored to veteran players with an overemphasis on finesse and "thinking" which goes hand in hand with a lack of closing culture...whether it's closing on a ball carrier or closing out a game.

You have the bias issue backwards. The distaste did not spontaneously generate out of the ether leading to a bias; the distaste arose from the last 4 years of observation. That's not a bias any more than your distaste for the play of certain players based on observation is a bias.

And where exactly was it "all of the blame"? That is a gross misunderstanding with some handy black-and-white thinking. If I were to take a similar tack, I'd say you have a bias against the players and want to see them fired. But I wouldn't do that. The idea is to fix the the things you can given the circumstances and limitations of the moment.

Maybe Capers has too much "dead money" in his golden parachute inhibiting the ability to buy hotels and gas stations, but we have not way of knowing. What we do know is you can't fire all the players who's pay-for-performance quotient is not up to snuff. But you can fire a coach who's performance is not up to snuff.
 

TJV

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And where exactly was it "all of the blame"? That is a gross misunderstanding with some handy black-and-white thinking.
Go back to the conversations about the NFCCG and both captainWIMM and I posted several times the blame should be shared by the offense and STs and defense and you steadfastly blamed only Capers - you are the one thinking in terms of black and white: The failings of individual players doesn't matter. The failure of the offense to get one first down on two consecutive three-and-outs doesn't matter.
And Thompson's failures in talent acquisition don't matter. Black and white - according to you it's all Capers' fault.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Go back to the conversations about the NFCCG and both captainWIMM and I posted several times the blame should be shared by the offense and STs and defense and you steadfastly blamed only Capers - you are the one thinking in terms of black and white.
Go, Pack, Go. Go, Capers, Go.
 

PikeBadger

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You realize he coaches the defensive line, right? More talent than LBs (Matthews and Peppers have more talent than all the DL combined), more talent than the WRs (is Thompson known for succeeding at drafting DL or is it WRs? Try comparing the list of WRs he's drafted to the above list), more talent than even the CBs (since 2009 Charles Woodson, Tramon Williams, and Sam Shields have played CB - which DL was/is half as talented as Woodson?)? How about the QB position coach - has he had any talent to work with? The kindest honest thing I can think of posting about that statement is it's ridiculous.
Going back in this thread we were talking about the last 4-5 years. Over that timeframe, Thompson has used a lot of draft capital on the DL compared to CB. You may not think Jones , Raji, Perry and Worthy are talented but the fact that they were all drafted very high compared to the other position groups would say otherwise. Peppers and Perry are DLinemen that were moved to a different position.
 

PikeBadger

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It seems like you're confusing high draft picks with the actual talent on the defensive line. It's true that Thompson has invested a ton of early rounders on the position but nevertheless hasn't brought in any significant impact players aside of Raji for a short period of time.

Mike Daniels has been by far the best DL on the team over the six years (aside of Cullen Jenkins who left in free agency after the Packers winning the Super Bowl) and I'm convinced with him being a fourth-rounder he was trenendously coached up by the team's defensive staff.
I think it's safe to say Jones, Perry, Worthy were talents since they showing up in all mock drafts. Perhaps skills were not taught to bring out that talent.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Go back to the conversations about the NFCCG and both captainWIMM and I posted several times the blame should be shared by the offense and STs and defense and you steadfastly blamed only Capers.
You guys seemed, and still seem, to want the spread the blame equally. I can't think of a more acute instance of missing the forest for the trees in atomizing the plays as though it doesn't matter what happens when in a game. I saw and see the trees, they were impossible to miss, but you clearly have missed the forest which compels me to keep emphasizing it.

I look forward to watching the replay or the Bears game. Judging from the play-by-play, it appears to have similarities to week 4 last year, but I will of course refrain from commenting in any detail until I've seen it.
 

TJV

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Going back in this thread we were talking about the last 4-5 years. Over that timeframe, Thompson has used a lot of draft capital on the DL compared to CB. You may not think Jones , Raji, Perry and Worthy are talented but the fact that they were all drafted very high compared to the other position groups would say otherwise. Peppers and Perry are DLinemen that were moved to a different position.
Draft position as a measure of talent is a huge fallacy. There is so much evidence to support this it should go without saying. I'm a little embarrassed you actually believe this.
You guys seemed, and still seem, to want the spread the blame equally.
And you don't spread the blame at all. Black and white for you: All Capers' faults.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Repeating that doesn't make it true.
You just said that in post #47: "Go back to the conversations about the NFCCG and both captainWIMM and I posted several times the blame should be shared by the offense and STs and defense."

Sounds pretty equal to me.
 

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HRE, don't you at least agree that the special teams made some atrocious mistakes in that game and the offense certainly could have done better? By the way I am with you on this and put the large majority of the blame on a defense that failed to close out. The last 5 minutes of that game was literally some of the worst, if not the worst defense the Packers played all year. But, the offense and ST did play their parts in that failure.
 
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Like many, I have had my doubts. But we can't blame 2014 on Capers. He could just as easily had 2 SB rings.
Would we honestly be having said discussion if we were holding the Lombari? My guess is not.
 

PikeBadger

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Draft position as a measure of talent is a huge fallacy. There is so much evidence to support this it should go without saying. I'm a little embarrassed you actually believe this. And you don't spread the blame at all. Black and white for you: All Capers' faults.
You trying to pick a fight by marginalizing my opinion and belittling those opinions TJV?

Perhaps we aren't on the same page in the definition of "talent". I think draft position is generally a reflection of perceived end potential based on natural athletic talent and ability. Skill (like Mike Daniels possesses) is a learned application of talent and ability.
 

Half Empty

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Like many, I have had my doubts. But we can't blame 2014 on Capers. He could just as easily had 2 SB rings.
Would we honestly be having said discussion if we were holding the Lombari? My guess is not.

If you get to take the ********* home from the bar, you don't think about the drink you spilled on her. If you spend the night alone, you might dwell on it a bit. :)
 

TJV

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You just said that in post #47: "Go back to the conversations about the NFCCG and both captainWIMM and I posted several times the blame should be shared by the offense and STs and defense." Sounds pretty equal to me.
Just like when you cited mean average scoring (according to you the Packers O "succeeded" because they scored an expected 22 points – neglecting the fact the D intercepted four passes) you are stretching in an attempt to justify your stance. You post “Sounds pretty equal” regarding a quote that doesn’t include the word, “equal”. Sharing blame does not mean it’s shared equally. The emphasis on the responsibility of the offense and defense is only in response to your blaming it entirely on Capers.
 

G0P4ckG0

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Like many, I have had my doubts. But we can't blame 2014 on Capers. He could just as easily had 2 SB rings.
Would we honestly be having said discussion if we were holding the Lombari? My guess is not.
Just because a team with a poor defense wins a championship doesn't mean the defense should be given a free pass. In other words, you can't polish a turd.
 

TJV

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You trying to pick a fight by marginalizing my opinion and belittling those opinions TJV?
It's difficult to respond to the notion that Trgo has been given more talent than any other position group. IMO it's ridiculous on it's face. If you want to know how others here view that statement, start a thread with a pole asking which position group has been given the most talent.
 

Ogsponge

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It's difficult to respond to the notion that Trgo has been given more talent than any other position group. IMO it's ridiculous on it's face. If you want to know how others here view that statement, start a thread with a pole asking which position group has been given the most talent.

No poll needed, WR. I would say QB but since only one QB plays at a time.
 

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