How is it that Capers still has a job with the Green Bay Packers?

thepackers1fan4

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So they've both had plenty of talent and not enough talent at the same time?

I'm talking over the years, some years he has had plenty of talent some years he has had limited talent.
like you said I am excited to see what comes of this year because I believe we have a good defense with a lot of potential, let's see what Capers does with it.
 

Joe Nor Cal Packer

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You're probably right Grave. At this point it doesn't matter. Ya dance with the one ya brought. The bigger question is how good this D will be.

I think this D will be surprisingly good. The move of CMIII to the inside isn't an experiment anymore. And while this won't surprise opponents, CMIII is good enough to disguise where he'll play which could be different from where he lines up. I think the secondary will live up to its promise. I expect a top 10 D, and with this offense, that will be enough.

Alas I have no such feelings for STs, outside of Crosby. The O alone may get GB to the SB but will not win w/o a solid D and t least above average play from STs. Nelson's loss is significant. The whole team must have the "next man up" mentality to compensate.
 

JBlood

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Even if it was 4 years in a row, it still wouldn't make sense to evaluate his job status based on a preseason game.
This is not about a preseason game. According to DVOA, Capers' defenses ranked 25th, 8th, 31st, and 16th the last 4 years. Both of his first 2 defenses ranked 2nd. Compare those defenses to McCarthy's first 3 teams' defenses: 11th, 16th, and 12th--defenses that prompted the hiring of Capers.

The last 4 Capers' defenses are much worse than the 3 that got him hired. Even if you add the second ranked defenses, the average is still worse than MM's first 3 team defenses.

As Grave says, why does he still have this job?
 

Joe Nor Cal Packer

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This is not about a preseason game. According to DVOA, Capers' defenses ranked 25th, 8th, 31st, and 16th the last 4 years. Both of his first 2 defenses ranked 2nd. Compare those defenses to McCarthy's first 3 teams' defenses: 11th, 16th, and 12th--defenses that prompted the hiring of Capers.

The last 4 Capers' defenses are much worse than the 3 that got him hired. Even if you add the second ranked defenses, the average is still worse than MM's first 3 team defenses.

As Grave says, why does he still have this job?
A lot of people, including me, think Capers should have been whacked either after the last season or the one before that. It didn't happen, and GB also decided not to inject new blood into a bleeding STs unit, sticking with Slocum's understudy, Zook.

I trust the management skills of TT and MM. They know more than all of us combined. That said, the offense even with a healthy ARod will not win a SB alone. With the loss of Nelson, the Packers will need a top 10 D and a STs unit at least in the Top 15. I'm more convinced that the D will be a top 10 unit than I am that STs will crack the top 15. We'll see. We're all pretty sick of one and done playoff performances, and poor ST play was the major culprit in the NFCCG loss last year. Rodgers is not getting any younger. The time is now, to paraphrase Kevin Greene.
 
D

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although we haven't had much talent up front to put pressure on the quarterback so they have had a lot of time to throw the ball in order to make our secondary look like a bunch of high schoolers, at the end of the day though you are the defensive coordinator so talent or not it falls on your shoulders to call the right plays to make those players shine and I feel like he hasn't done that since the super bowl win.
if we have another poor defense this season maybe it's time to make a change.

No secondary is capable of covering receivers for an extended period of time with the front seven not getting any pressure. No defensive coordinator is capable of coming up with a scheme making that work.

The O alone may get GB to the SB but will not win w/o a solid D and t least above average play from STs.

That said, the offense even with a healthy ARod will not win a SB alone. With the loss of Nelson, the Packers will need a top 10 D and a STs unit at least in the Top 15.

Here we go again. There is statistical evidence, which I´ve provided several times, that teams don´t need a top defense to win the Super Bowl, yet you continue to ignore it. Sometimes it´s fine to acknowledge being wrong.

This is not about a preseason game. According to DVOA, Capers' defenses ranked 25th, 8th, 31st, and 16th the last 4 years. Both of his first 2 defenses ranked 2nd. Compare those defenses to McCarthy's first 3 teams' defenses: 11th, 16th, and 12th--defenses that prompted the hiring of Capers.

The last 4 Capers' defenses are much worse than the 3 that got him hired. Even if you add the second ranked defenses, the average is still worse than MM's first 3 team defenses.

As Grave says, why does he still have this job?

The defense had way more talent in 2009 and 2010 than during any of the last four seasons. It took Thompson two years to make up for the loss of Cullen Jenkins by drafting Mike Daniels, nearly three years to adequately replace Nick Collins with HaHa Clinton-Dix and the mess at inside linebacker hasn´t been addressed adequately as of now.

While Capers hasn´t been perfect by any means Thompson and the players deserve the majority of the blame for the defense´s performance over the last four years.
 

JBlood

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hile Capers hasn´t been perfect by any means Thompson and the players deserve the majority of the blame for the defense´s performance over the last four years.
Well, this is the age-old debate about managers, coaches, and players. And the bottom line is that it's usually easier to replace a coach than a roster.
 

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I agree with The Packers 1fan4 when he said the Dom Capers does not do much during the game with adjustments. And the one play that bothers me more than all the rest is his 3 man rush. Even if we are not getting to the QB you need 4 in order to make him uncomfortable. And not 3 rushing and 1 spying. That is just a 3 man rush with one wasted player. I think more than any single call in that seattle game, the 3 man rush call blew the game. And I saw him do it at least once in this preseason.
 
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I think more than any single call in that seattle game, the 3 man rush call blew the game. And I saw him do it at least once in this preseason.

While I didn´t like the call either that statement is a huge exaggeration.
 

gopkrs

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Well, that was my opinion at the time and it still is... and it was a huge play.
 

Joe Nor Cal Packer

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No secondary is capable of covering receivers for an extended period of time with the front seven not getting any pressure. No defensive coordinator is capable of coming up with a scheme making that work.



Here we go again. There is statistical evidence, which I´ve provided several times, that teams don´t need a top defense to win the Super Bowl, yet you continue to ignore it. Sometimes it´s fine to acknowledge being wrong.



The defense had way more talent in 2009 and 2010 than during any of the last four seasons. It took Thompson two years to make up for the loss of Cullen Jenkins by drafting Mike Daniels, nearly three years to adequately replace Nick Collins with HaHa Clinton-Dix and the mess at inside linebacker hasn´t been addressed adequately as of now.

While Capers hasn´t been perfect by any means Thompson and the players deserve the majority of the blame for the defense´s performance over the last four years.
Captain in this case I'm only referring to this GB team, this season. I'm confident their O will be in the Top 3. The D should be capable of a Top 10 finish. And that should result in a SB 50 win. If the D falls somewhere short of that, the Packers will not win the SB, no matter how many points the O puts up, no matter how many regular season games they win. They don't need a Top 3 D with this O to win the SB. If you disagree that GB can win with a D ranked below 10, I simply disagree. Not a big deal and the results will speak for themselves. For now, let's just keep the discussion focused on this season.

And as we learned last season in the NFCCG, no matter how well the O and/or the D is playing in a particular game, a bad STs can send that all South very fast.
 

ivo610

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With the suspensions and possible injury of Burnett, Im curious to see how much of an impact it will have on the defense.
 

gopkrs

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I have never thought Burnett was very good against the pass. He has impressed at times with his physicality against the run. So if someone can come in and make sure tackles in the box; we will be OK. The problem is the learning curve. Hyde?? Also I hope Hayward plays well but if not there is still a place for him to watch TEs, RBs and/or the extra receiver.
 
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I have never thought Burnett was very good against the pass. He has impressed at times with his physicality against the run. So if someone can come in and make sure tackles in the box; we will be OK. The problem is the learning curve. Hyde?? Also I hope Hayward plays well but if not there is still a place for him to watch TEs, RBs and/or the extra receiver.

Burnett is one of the best box safeties in the league and the Packers would truly miss him vs. the Bears, especially as the Bears will most likely try to run the ball a ton.
 

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No secondary is capable of covering receivers for an extended period of time with the front seven not getting any pressure. No defensive coordinator is capable of coming up with a scheme making that work.


The defense had way more talent in 2009 and 2010 than during any of the last four seasons. It took Thompson two years to make up for the loss of Cullen Jenkins by drafting Mike Daniels, nearly three years to adequately replace Nick Collins with HaHa Clinton-Dix and the mess at inside linebacker hasn´t been addressed adequately as of now.

While Capers hasn´t been perfect by any means Thompson and the players deserve the majority of the blame for the defense´s performance over the last four years.
I wholeheartedly agree with your first paragraph. The cornerback play has been plenty good enough over the last five years imo. We had a two year stretch where the safety play has been poor and the defensive line play has been problematic over most of the last four years. For that, I blame Raji, the coaches for believing in him, and Thompson for believing in the coaches assessment of Raji. The organization essentially put their misguided faith in one NT and that guy to this point has failed us all. I think that Trgovic has gotten a pass through all these years and I feel that he bears a large part of the responsibility in all this.
 
D

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We had a two year stretch where the safety play has been poor and the defensive line play has been problematic over most of the last four years. For that, I blame Raji, the coaches for believing in him, and Thompson for believing in the coaches assessment of Raji. The organization essentially put their misguided faith in one NT and that guy to this point has failed us all. I think that Trgovic has gotten a pass through all these years and I feel that he bears a large part of the responsibility in all this.

Raji has been a major disappointment for several seasons and I'm anxious about the defense relying on him at nose tackle entering the season. It's really tough for someone outside of the organization to fairly evaluate a position coach but Trgovac's track record hasn't been impressive.
 

TJV

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... the defensive line play has been problematic over most of the last four years. For that, I blame Raji, the coaches for believing in him, and Thompson for believing in the coaches assessment of Raji. The organization essentially put their misguided faith in one NT and that guy to this point has failed us all. I think that Trgovic has gotten a pass through all these years and I feel that he bears a large part of the responsibility in all this.
IMO you are putting too much emphasis on one player. BTW, Pickett was playing NT for a couple of those years. IMO Thompson's inability to draft difference makers on the DL plays a bigger role. Over the last four drafts (not counting this year's) here are the DL drafted: Worthy, Daniels, Boyd, Datone, Thornton. One difference maker with significant "draft capital" expended. It's tough for me to assess how much responsibility Trgovac bears - he doesn't acquire the talent and he doesn't control the scheme....
 
H

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I have never thought Burnett was very good against the pass. He has impressed at times with his physicality against the run. So if someone can come in and make sure tackles in the box; we will be OK. The problem is the learning curve. Hyde?? Also I hope Hayward plays well but if not there is still a place for him to watch TEs, RBs and/or the extra receiver.
Hyde was a starting free safety for the first few games last season...I want to say 5 or 6 games...performing credibly before Dix was up to speed. He's the best tackler among the secondary players on this roster with the possible exception of Burnett.

In "starting" base defense, Hyde at SS makes a lot of sense. For the other 2/3 of the snaps, I would not be so sure he wouldn't be put to better use covering Bennett at nickel.
 
H

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IMO you are putting too much emphasis on one player. BTW, Pickett was playing NT for a couple of those years. IMO Thompson's inability to draft difference makers on the DL plays a bigger role. Over the last four drafts (not counting this year's) here are the DL drafted: Worthy, Daniels, Boyd, Datone, Thornton. One difference maker with significant "draft capital" expended. It's tough for me to assess how much responsibility Trgovac bears - he doesn't acquire the talent and he doesn't control the scheme....
Wasn't it you, TJV, who posted the Thompson quote suggesting he started drafting more for fit in the Capers D? And didn't that quote date from the 2013 draft? Correct me if my recollection is poor.

In that vein, it's somewhat ironic that the guy we all like (Daniels) does not fit the Capers "length" preference whereas Datone Jones in fact does. And it's taken Capers 3 camps and 2 seasons to conclude that Jones is best equipped to go against OTs where he can use his length, whereas he's not fit to go against OGs in close quarter in the nickel DT spot.

I would not overlook Thompson's acquisition of Guion with a nice pay vs. performance outcome or the Peppers acquisition, a sometimes D-Lineman who we may see more of in that spot with Capers' newfound illumination regarding Jones.

All that aside, I'm pretty optimistic about the D-Line. Pennel looks like the strong side DE run defender that's been missing since Pickett moved back to NT, while being a credible rotational guy at NT if needed. His pad level issues are mostly behind him. That's providing Boyd doesn't get the starting job on seniority; even so Pennel will have a chance to make a mark in these first 3 games.

The fact that Raji did not record a tackle in 50-some preseason snaps remains troubling...you expect the guy to get off blocks every once in a while and fall on somebody. But the base D looked pretty good collectively this preseason, jamming things up between the tackles and not getting pushed off the line, with Raji holding ground at the point.

In nickel/dime, a Daniels, Gaston, Peppers, Neal and eventually Guion rotation looks decent. We'll be quite interested to see if Gaston can graduate from "Mr. August" status.

What I'd prefer not see is the "psycho" defense, renamed and redeployed last season. I'm sure the Captain can remind me again of what they were calling it last year. That's a Capers gimmick without question.

In short, barring injury, I'm less concerned about the D-Line than some of what's happening behind them.
 
D

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Wasn't it you, TJV, who posted the Thompson quote suggesting he started drafting more for fit in the Capers D? And didn't that quote date from the 2013 draft? Correct me if my recollection is poor.

It was actually me posting the quote from Thompson mentioned above. I read it in a Journal Sentinel article either after or shortly before the 2014 draft but can't find it anymore.

What I'd prefer not see is the "psycho" defense, renamed and redeployed last season. I'm sure the Captain can remind me again of what they were calling it last year. That's a Capers gimmick without question.

Capers' psycho defense is a nickel scheme which features only one defensive lineman and five linebackers. The NASCAR package used last season doesn't feature any defensive linemen.

In short, barring injury, I'm less concerned about the D-Line than some of what's happening behind them.

Agreed, especially once Jones and Guion will be back the defensive line should be fine.
 
H

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It was actually me posting the quote from Thompson mentioned above. I read it in a Journal Sentinel article either after or shortly before the 2014 draft but can't find it anymore.

Capers' psycho defense is a nickel scheme which features only one defensive lineman and five linebackers. The NASCAR package used last season doesn't feature any defensive linemen.

Agreed, especially once Jones and Guion will be back the defensive line should be fine.
Thanks for the clarification...again.

I find the terms counterintuitive so I tend not to remember them. I previously referred to the "quad" defense as NASCAR. It seems to me putting ILBs in a down stance approximates the start of a NASCAR race, whereas having a bunch of LB and LB/D-Line hybrids moving around pre-snap does not. Whether it's one D-Lineman or none, NASCAR is a repackaging of the psycho concept. The psycho had the D-Lineman sometimes dropping down to hand in the dirt; other times everybody was moving around (or "milling around" if you prefer) up to the snap.

By whatever name they call it, I don't care for any of it...too clever by half.
 

PikeBadger

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IMO you are putting too much emphasis on one player. BTW, Pickett was playing NT for a couple of those years. IMO Thompson's inability to draft difference makers on the DL plays a bigger role. Over the last four drafts (not counting this year's) here are the DL drafted: Worthy, Daniels, Boyd, Datone, Thornton. One difference maker with significant "draft capital" expended. It's tough for me to assess how much responsibility Trgovac bears - he doesn't acquire the talent and he doesn't control the scheme....
Neither does Whitt and he has managed to produce pretty skilled cornerbacks. Almost all of whom were not drafted near as high as the defensive linemen. I just am not seeing all that much coaching up except for Pennel possibly. I think Daniels best coaching came at Iowa.
 

TJV

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I have called for Capers to be fired in the past, so I am anything but an ardent Capers defender. My first serious post on this thread cited the stats of Capers’ Packers Ds that provide evidence which answered the question posed by the thread. Of course Capers isn't blameless for the problems on D, but those who post as though the only problem on that side of the ball is Dom Capers are misguided IMO. Thompson is responsible for the talent acquisition and one easy example of his failure in that regard is having no better option than MD Jennings at safety. That wasn’t Capers’ fault. Thompson and to some degree McCarthy share the blame of originally hiring and now retaining a DC whose schemes emphasize experience: We all know a central tenant of Thompson’s MO is having perpetually young teams and that poses an ongoing conflict to some degree. But the hiring did work very well for the first two seasons. And of course Capers is ultimately responsible for his assistants, and together they are responsible for in-game adjustments, how well or poorly the team tackles, and the “communication” problems we have witnessed during his tenure. So, there’s blame to go around. IMO only insiders who know the interaction of all the “players” (Thompson, McCarthy, Capers, etc.) can precisely assign blame for each shortcoming.
And it's taken Capers 3 camps and 2 seasons to conclude that Jones is best equipped to go against OTs where he can use his length, whereas he's not fit to go against OGs in close quarter in the nickel DT spot.
Are you saying Capers didn’t give Jones a chance to start at DE in the base? That wasn’t the problem; the problem was Jones wasn’t stout enough vs. the run. What he has been capable of so far is providing pressure on the QB. If you are assigning blame regarding Jones I would start with Thompson and staff evaluating him as a full-time DE in the 3-4. I don’t think the problem was Capers deciding without evidence that Jones was ill-suited for DE in the base.

As far as talent acquisition I agree Guion was a good signing, one that was necessary because of the lack of other options. Here are Thompson’s draft picks on the DL since Capers signed on in January of 2009:

Year: Round. #overall pick
2009: 1. #9 BJ Raji NT; 6. #182 Jarius Wynn DE
2010: 2. #56 Mike Neal DL; 7. #230 C.J. Wilson DE
2011: 7. #233 Lawrence Guy DT
2012: 2. #51 Jerel Worthy DT; 4. #132 Mike Daniels DT
2013: 1. #26 Datone Jones DE; 5. #167 Josh Boyd DT
2014: 3. #85 Khyri Thornton DT
2015: 6. #210 Christian Ringo DE

Many of us have, and have had questions about Raji for the past few seasons (BTW you don’t blame Capers for Raji not recording a tackle in preseason, do you?). In seven drafts two first rounders, two second rounders and a third rounder. It’s not as if Thompson has ignored DL, but look at the ‘opportunity cost’ of most of those picks. Of all those picks the most important player this season may be the fourth rounder.

I too am more optimistic about the DL than I have been in the past; I too have posted about the progress of Pennel and I think Gaston has considerable upside. But I believe the subject we’re assessing the job Capers has done.
Neither does Whitt and he has managed to produce pretty skilled cornerbacks. Almost all of whom were not drafted near as high as the defensive linemen. I just am not seeing all that much coaching up except for Pennel possibly. I think Daniels best coaching came at Iowa.
Which of the two, Whitt or Trgovac has been given more talent to work with? How does Capers' scheme - no matter what you think of it - impact the play of CBs vs. DL? IMO it looks more like a preconceived idea to give Whitt "all" the credit for CB play but believing "Daniels best coaching came at Iowa". How often and how closely have you observed Daniels and Trgo's relationship?
 
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