Fire Capers

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But I also believe his stubbornness has cost us a time or two, and there's at least a question that he is losing his touch on the defensive side of the ball. He's poured draft after draft into the D, and it hasn't gotten better.

I don't even necessarily want to get rid of TT, I'd be happy if he just loosened up a little bit and explored other avenues, like trades. Look at all the trades the Pats have made. I don't remember the exact number, but the comparison between Belichick and TT is something like 112 trades to 4.

It seems Thompson lost his touch for drafting defensive players a long time ago, especially considering how many early rounders he has invested on that side of the ball.

FYI according to PFR's trade finder the Packers have made a total of 45 trades since Thompson took over compared to 90 for the Patriots. Those numbers include swapping draft picks as well.
 

rmontro

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FYI according to PFR's trade finder the Packers have made a total of 45 trades since Thompson took over compared to 90 for the Patriots. Those numbers include swapping draft picks as well.
Well, that's embarrassing. It's still a 2-1 ratio, but it makes me wonder where I got those numbers. According to this article, Belichick has made 121 trades, but I was clearly way off on Ted.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-englan...rades-among-bill-belichicks-121-with-patriots
 

pizzle

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I've been in favor or letting Capers go for a while now. I think that he and Thompson are philosophically a bad marriage. I also think that he's a "system" coach who struggles to adapt to talent that isn't exactly what he would want in the ideal situation.

There's no question that Thompson is one of the better GMs in the league. But I also believe his stubbornness has cost us a time or two, and there's at least a question that he is losing his touch on the defensive side of the ball. He's poured draft after draft into the D, and it hasn't gotten better.


Ted is a decent enough GM. He's prudent and deliberate. But the same things that allow for GB to be consistently a winning franchise under him are also what limit us from being able to compete to win Super Bowl rings. We shouldn't be looking at mediocrity around the league as a reason to be content. We should be looking at New England and asking ourselves, "Why haven't we been able to do what they have done in the past five years?"

The problem-I agree-is that Ted and Dom are not a good mix. Dom runs the type of scheme that should be stocked with veterans and sprinkled in with some nice young guns. It also should be a top-heavy D in terms of talent. Ideally, at minimum you want a Top 3 EDGE rushing OLB getting 15 sacks a year coupled with an All-Pro ILB who can move/be very physical at the point of attack/take on blocks from O-lineman/be at least effective when fire zone blitzes are called. Then, you need a high quality, mammoth-of-a-man 0-technique NT to draw the attention of the O-line's interior consistently enough to let your 3-4 auxiliary players run clean/confuse the rest of the protection scheme and/or QB while giving them little time to react. Or in a nutshell, you compliment 2-3 stud LBs and 1-2 really good defensive linemen with as much speed and smarts as possible at the other 6-8 positions on the field that you can afford. Is having a good nickelback (Rod/Charles Woodson) important? Yes. But having Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Levon Kirkland, James Harrison, Casey Hampton, Lawrence Timmons, Ryan Shazier-esque players is PARAMOUNT. Your front 7 must be designed meticulously and specifically in a 3-4 to have the ability to execute certain things. Guys like Brett Keisel, though valued in the Dom/**** Lebeau 3-4, are easier to attain than the guys I mentioned previously.

This is where I come back to Ted. When we won our Super Bowl, we had a B.J. Raji. We had a Clay Matthews playing like a Top 3 EDGE rushing OLB. But realistically, outside of Desmond Bishop and A.J. Hawk, we've never even had flashes of top-notch ILB play. Meanwhile, we've never replaced Raji, and Clay is not a stud anymore. Perry is not a premier guy, either. He is like a good #2 WR, or 2nd scoring option in basketball. He isn't the top dog, and if we expect him to be that for the next five years, we're in trouble when it comes to getting to the QB on defense. The bottom line is, Ted has not assisted Dom in assembling a stout 3-4 defense, nor has he invested properly in maintaining its foundation. He has basically done what he wants, hope he hits on certain guys he likes, allowed parts of the defense to be glaringly deficient before addressing it after the fact, and all the while made Dom work with what he has given him/take the blame for bad performances from the unit. But sometimes, you can't fault the contractor, you gotta fault the architect.

Let's dig further. Ted has a thing for defensive backs. It's apparent to me when you look at his tenure that he values the secondary highly when acquiring players for the Green Bay defense. Which is a big issue, because since Ted is the czar of "draft and develop" he's forcing Dom to play a bunch of young guys nearly right away in a complex scheme that is designed for older, more experienced players. Guys like Carnell Lake, or Al Harris.

The tradition of the 3-4 is that of a defense that can give opponents fits IF it is built the right way. A 3-4 is designed to create more pressure on the QB in the pass game than a 4-3 can while not sacrificing the ability to effectively stop the run/not being as vulnerable in the quick passing game itself as a counter. But if you look at Dom's D in GB since we won the SB, we have not been able to be a consistently dominant defense, and at times have been very porous. At first it was the inability to stop the run, which is an Achilles heel for a 3-4 that messes up everything else until corrected. Then, it was giving up the big pass play due to inconsistencies with communication in the secondary. Now we finally have a quality young FS in HHCD that replaced Collins, yet are still vulnerable due to QBs having the time to pick apart our defense late in games. Because Ted didn't keep Charles around/let Casey go/hoped his cheap rookies in R&R would step up, we have seen with Sam Shields' injury that we were suspect at the CB position and paid for it, even while Ted invests in it regularly to the detriment of the front seven.

Ted is really more to blame for the defensive issues, and not Dom. I haven't always felt this way over the years, but after this past season and seeing what Ted has done so far in the off-season I am certain in this. Ted paid Nick Perry and let JP + Jones walk, even though if you think about it, Julius and Datone were almost as productive as a duo than Nick was when you consider sacks and pressures as stats/how Nick got alot of his stats last year. They also would have been cheaper to resign overall than what Nick is to keep as a "premier EDGE rusher". But Ted did that to prove a point. He drafted Nick in the 1st round, so he has to keep HIS guy since he balled out on a prove-it deal. Same thing with Clay. He should have been restructured by now, but because he is Ted's marquee guy, he ignores the fact that he is not living up to his contract, but consistently lets guys like Casey/T.J. go (and is prolly gonna let Morgan walk after next year, too) when he thinks he can afford it.

Ted's cheapskate mentality and emphasis on building the defense from the back-end forward is what has screwed up Dom's defense. Couple that with a history of bad breaks health-wise with key players, and it's forced Capers to adjust with his hands tied behind his back. His answer had become the elephant end/OLB instead of the consistent use of a 0-tech NT, quicker 3-tech DTs, and playing nickel like it is the base defense.

I think the reason why GB's defense isn't good enough is fundamental. Dom has been trying to bandage the unit by rolling with the 2-4-5 in as many situations as possible, and just rotating players in and out like hockey. Last year it bit him in the behind. Offensive coaching staffs took advantage of the defensive alignment and put up big numbers on us. Which is why I think TT and Dom are trying to work together this off-season in one last try at building a Top 10 defense together. I see Dom wanting to run 3-4-4, 3-3-5, 3-2-6, and 2-2-7 defensive alignments this year. Base 3-4=20% 3-3-5 (The real base defense)=40% 3-2-6 (DIME)=25% and 2-2-7 (Quarters) 15%. No more 2-4-5. It is not big enough to stop the run against good, powerful O-lines (like Dallas/Tennessee), but also doesn't give you enough flexibility in personnel to get a pass rush later in games when offenses get aggressive. You're a sitting duck with that defense when you're trotting out 2 slow ILBs who can be isolated and exposed in the passing game, especially when your secondary is vulnerable at the corner spots like we were. Without any elephants, we gotta have 3 DLs on the field more to stop the run and push the pocket from the middle. With using Josh Jones and Morgan Burnett as ILBs, we can have the speed/athleticism in the middle we need to combat teams like ATL who have good receiving RBs. But in order to do that more consistently, we need to not have them caught in the wash. Which is why I would not expect to see the 2-4-5 at all this season, and only see two down lineman in obvious 3rd and long passing situations late in games when we are trying to protect a lead.

But, Ted is still ******** us over by leaving the OLB position cupboard dangerously bare. So Dom is still hamstrung. We're basically replacing Julius Peppers with Jayrone and Montravious Adams in terms of production (not schematically). Now, instead of trying to scheme the defense to get to 50 sacks in a season, and increase the turnovers that give Aaron more possessions, he has to find a way to manufacture consistent pressure/duplicate the 40 sack year we had on defense that STILL WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR US TO BE A COMPETENT CHAMPIONSHIP UNIT. This is why I can't be on the fire Capers train. Ted is the one who needs to go. Replace him with Eliot Wolf, and tell him to go shopping for some front seven goodies to help out Granddaddy Dom. Then we can properly evaluate him as a DC.
 
D

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Well, that's embarrassing. It's still a 2-1 ratio, but it makes me wonder where I got those numbers. According to this article, Belichick has made 121 trades, but I was clearly way off on Ted.

http://www.espn.com/blog/new-englan...rades-among-bill-belichicks-121-with-patriots

I used numbers starting in 2005 to fairly compared Belichick and Thompson. Yiu have to consider that BB became the Patriots' general manager five years earlier though.

Ted is a decent enough GM. He's prudent and deliberate. But the same things that allow for GB to be consistently a winning franchise under him are also what limit us from being able to compete to win Super Bowl rings. We shouldn't be looking at mediocrity around the league as a reason to be content. We should be looking at New England and asking ourselves, "Why haven't we been able to do what they have done in the past five years?"

The problem-I agree-is that Ted and Dom are not a good mix. Dom runs the type of scheme that should be stocked with veterans and sprinkled in with some nice young guns. It also should be a top-heavy D in terms of talent. Ideally, at minimum you want a Top 3 EDGE rushing OLB getting 15 sacks a year coupled with an All-Pro ILB who can move/be very physical at the point of attack/take on blocks from O-lineman/be at least effective when fire zone blitzes are called. Then, you need a high quality, mammoth-of-a-man 0-technique NT to draw the attention of the O-line's interior consistently enough to let your 3-4 auxiliary players run clean/confuse the rest of the protection scheme and/or QB while giving them little time to react. Or in a nutshell, you compliment 2-3 stud LBs and 1-2 really good defensive linemen with as much speed and smarts as possible at the other 6-8 positions on the field that you can afford. Is having a good nickelback (Rod/Charles Woodson) important? Yes. But having Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Levon Kirkland, James Harrison, Casey Hampton, Lawrence Timmons, Ryan Shazier-esque players is PARAMOUNT. Your front 7 must be designed meticulously and specifically in a 3-4 to have the ability to execute certain things. Guys like Brett Keisel, though valued in the Dom/**** Lebeau 3-4, are easier to attain than the guys I mentioned previously.

This is where I come back to Ted. When we won our Super Bowl, we had a B.J. Raji. We had a Clay Matthews playing like a Top 3 EDGE rushing OLB. But realistically, outside of Desmond Bishop and A.J. Hawk, we've never even had flashes of top-notch ILB play. Meanwhile, we've never replaced Raji, and Clay is not a stud anymore. Perry is not a premier guy, either. He is like a good #2 WR, or 2nd scoring option in basketball. He isn't the top dog, and if we expect him to be that for the next five years, we're in trouble when it comes to getting to the QB on defense. The bottom line is, Ted has not assisted Dom in assembling a stout 3-4 defense, nor has he invested properly in maintaining its foundation. He has basically done what he wants, hope he hits on certain guys he likes, allowed parts of the defense to be glaringly deficient before addressing it after the fact, and all the while made Dom work with what he has given him/take the blame for bad performances from the unit. But sometimes, you can't fault the contractor, you gotta fault the architect.

Let's dig further. Ted has a thing for defensive backs. It's apparent to me when you look at his tenure that he values the secondary highly when acquiring players for the Green Bay defense. Which is a big issue, because since Ted is the czar of "draft and develop" he's forcing Dom to play a bunch of young guys nearly right away in a complex scheme that is designed for older, more experienced players. Guys like Carnell Lake, or Al Harris.

The tradition of the 3-4 is that of a defense that can give opponents fits IF it is built the right way. A 3-4 is designed to create more pressure on the QB in the pass game than a 4-3 can while not sacrificing the ability to effectively stop the run/not being as vulnerable in the quick passing game itself as a counter. But if you look at Dom's D in GB since we won the SB, we have not been able to be a consistently dominant defense, and at times have been very porous. At first it was the inability to stop the run, which is an Achilles heel for a 3-4 that messes up everything else until corrected. Then, it was giving up the big pass play due to inconsistencies with communication in the secondary. Now we finally have a quality young FS in HHCD that replaced Collins, yet are still vulnerable due to QBs having the time to pick apart our defense late in games. Because Ted didn't keep Charles around/let Casey go/hoped his cheap rookies in R&R would step up, we have seen with Sam Shields' injury that we were suspect at the CB position and paid for it, even while Ted invests in it regularly to the detriment of the front seven.

Ted is really more to blame for the defensive issues, and not Dom. I haven't always felt this way over the years, but after this past season and seeing what Ted has done so far in the off-season I am certain in this. Ted paid Nick Perry and let JP + Jones walk, even though if you think about it, Julius and Datone were almost as productive as a duo than Nick was when you consider sacks and pressures as stats/how Nick got alot of his stats last year. They also would have been cheaper to resign overall than what Nick is to keep as a "premier EDGE rusher". But Ted did that to prove a point. He drafted Nick in the 1st round, so he has to keep HIS guy since he balled out on a prove-it deal. Same thing with Clay. He should have been restructured by now, but because he is Ted's marquee guy, he ignores the fact that he is not living up to his contract, but consistently lets guys like Casey/T.J. go (and is prolly gonna let Morgan walk after next year, too) when he thinks he can afford it.

Ted's cheapskate mentality and emphasis on building the defense from the back-end forward is what has screwed up Dom's defense. Couple that with a history of bad breaks health-wise with key players, and it's forced Capers to adjust with his hands tied behind his back. His answer had become the elephant end/OLB instead of the consistent use of a 0-tech NT, quicker 3-tech DTs, and playing nickel like it is the base defense.

I think the reason why GB's defense isn't good enough is fundamental. Dom has been trying to bandage the unit by rolling with the 2-4-5 in as many situations as possible, and just rotating players in and out like hockey. Last year it bit him in the behind. Offensive coaching staffs took advantage of the defensive alignment and put up big numbers on us. Which is why I think TT and Dom are trying to work together this off-season in one last try at building a Top 10 defense together. I see Dom wanting to run 3-4-4, 3-3-5, 3-2-6, and 2-2-7 defensive alignments this year. Base 3-4=20% 3-3-5 (The real base defense)=40% 3-2-6 (DIME)=25% and 2-2-7 (Quarters) 15%. No more 2-4-5. It is not big enough to stop the run against good, powerful O-lines (like Dallas/Tennessee), but also doesn't give you enough flexibility in personnel to get a pass rush later in games when offenses get aggressive. You're a sitting duck with that defense when you're trotting out 2 slow ILBs who can be isolated and exposed in the passing game, especially when your secondary is vulnerable at the corner spots like we were. Without any elephants, we gotta have 3 DLs on the field more to stop the run and push the pocket from the middle. With using Josh Jones and Morgan Burnett as ILBs, we can have the speed/athleticism in the middle we need to combat teams like ATL who have good receiving RBs. But in order to do that more consistently, we need to not have them caught in the wash. Which is why I would not expect to see the 2-4-5 at all this season, and only see two down lineman in obvious 3rd and long passing situations late in games when we are trying to protect a lead.

But, Ted is still ******** us over by leaving the OLB position cupboard dangerously bare. So Dom is still hamstrung. We're basically replacing Julius Peppers with Jayrone and Montravious Adams in terms of production (not schematically). Now, instead of trying to scheme the defense to get to 50 sacks in a season, and increase the turnovers that give Aaron more possessions, he has to find a way to manufacture consistent pressure/duplicate the 40 sack year we had on defense that STILL WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR US TO BE A COMPETENT CHAMPIONSHIP UNIT. This is why I can't be on the fire Capers train. Ted is the one who needs to go. Replace him with Eliot Wolf, and tell him to go shopping for some front seven goodies to help out Granddaddy Dom. Then we can properly evaluate him as a DC.

Wow, I've probably never seen another post that long not containing any meaningful information.
 

Pkrjones

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Wow, I've probably never seen another post that long not containing any meaningful information.
No meaningul information? Pizzle brought up quite a few different schematic and personnel issues and backed them up with examples. You can disagree with some or all of it but your lack of understanding isn't on Pizzle. I'm actually surprised you don't have a post twice as long dissecting or parsing every word.
 

Dantés

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Ted is a decent enough GM. He's prudent and deliberate. But the same things that allow for GB to be consistently a winning franchise under him are also what limit us from being able to compete to win Super Bowl rings. We shouldn't be looking at mediocrity around the league as a reason to be content. We should be looking at New England and asking ourselves, "Why haven't we been able to do what they have done in the past five years?"

The problem-I agree-is that Ted and Dom are not a good mix. Dom runs the type of scheme that should be stocked with veterans and sprinkled in with some nice young guns. It also should be a top-heavy D in terms of talent. Ideally, at minimum you want a Top 3 EDGE rushing OLB getting 15 sacks a year coupled with an All-Pro ILB who can move/be very physical at the point of attack/take on blocks from O-lineman/be at least effective when fire zone blitzes are called. Then, you need a high quality, mammoth-of-a-man 0-technique NT to draw the attention of the O-line's interior consistently enough to let your 3-4 auxiliary players run clean/confuse the rest of the protection scheme and/or QB while giving them little time to react. Or in a nutshell, you compliment 2-3 stud LBs and 1-2 really good defensive linemen with as much speed and smarts as possible at the other 6-8 positions on the field that you can afford. Is having a good nickelback (Rod/Charles Woodson) important? Yes. But having Kevin Greene, Greg Lloyd, Levon Kirkland, James Harrison, Casey Hampton, Lawrence Timmons, Ryan Shazier-esque players is PARAMOUNT. Your front 7 must be designed meticulously and specifically in a 3-4 to have the ability to execute certain things. Guys like Brett Keisel, though valued in the Dom/**** Lebeau 3-4, are easier to attain than the guys I mentioned previously.

This is where I come back to Ted. When we won our Super Bowl, we had a B.J. Raji. We had a Clay Matthews playing like a Top 3 EDGE rushing OLB. But realistically, outside of Desmond Bishop and A.J. Hawk, we've never even had flashes of top-notch ILB play. Meanwhile, we've never replaced Raji, and Clay is not a stud anymore. Perry is not a premier guy, either. He is like a good #2 WR, or 2nd scoring option in basketball. He isn't the top dog, and if we expect him to be that for the next five years, we're in trouble when it comes to getting to the QB on defense. The bottom line is, Ted has not assisted Dom in assembling a stout 3-4 defense, nor has he invested properly in maintaining its foundation. He has basically done what he wants, hope he hits on certain guys he likes, allowed parts of the defense to be glaringly deficient before addressing it after the fact, and all the while made Dom work with what he has given him/take the blame for bad performances from the unit. But sometimes, you can't fault the contractor, you gotta fault the architect.

Let's dig further. Ted has a thing for defensive backs. It's apparent to me when you look at his tenure that he values the secondary highly when acquiring players for the Green Bay defense. Which is a big issue, because since Ted is the czar of "draft and develop" he's forcing Dom to play a bunch of young guys nearly right away in a complex scheme that is designed for older, more experienced players. Guys like Carnell Lake, or Al Harris.

The tradition of the 3-4 is that of a defense that can give opponents fits IF it is built the right way. A 3-4 is designed to create more pressure on the QB in the pass game than a 4-3 can while not sacrificing the ability to effectively stop the run/not being as vulnerable in the quick passing game itself as a counter. But if you look at Dom's D in GB since we won the SB, we have not been able to be a consistently dominant defense, and at times have been very porous. At first it was the inability to stop the run, which is an Achilles heel for a 3-4 that messes up everything else until corrected. Then, it was giving up the big pass play due to inconsistencies with communication in the secondary. Now we finally have a quality young FS in HHCD that replaced Collins, yet are still vulnerable due to QBs having the time to pick apart our defense late in games. Because Ted didn't keep Charles around/let Casey go/hoped his cheap rookies in R&R would step up, we have seen with Sam Shields' injury that we were suspect at the CB position and paid for it, even while Ted invests in it regularly to the detriment of the front seven.

Ted is really more to blame for the defensive issues, and not Dom. I haven't always felt this way over the years, but after this past season and seeing what Ted has done so far in the off-season I am certain in this. Ted paid Nick Perry and let JP + Jones walk, even though if you think about it, Julius and Datone were almost as productive as a duo than Nick was when you consider sacks and pressures as stats/how Nick got alot of his stats last year. They also would have been cheaper to resign overall than what Nick is to keep as a "premier EDGE rusher". But Ted did that to prove a point. He drafted Nick in the 1st round, so he has to keep HIS guy since he balled out on a prove-it deal. Same thing with Clay. He should have been restructured by now, but because he is Ted's marquee guy, he ignores the fact that he is not living up to his contract, but consistently lets guys like Casey/T.J. go (and is prolly gonna let Morgan walk after next year, too) when he thinks he can afford it.

Ted's cheapskate mentality and emphasis on building the defense from the back-end forward is what has screwed up Dom's defense. Couple that with a history of bad breaks health-wise with key players, and it's forced Capers to adjust with his hands tied behind his back. His answer had become the elephant end/OLB instead of the consistent use of a 0-tech NT, quicker 3-tech DTs, and playing nickel like it is the base defense.

I think the reason why GB's defense isn't good enough is fundamental. Dom has been trying to bandage the unit by rolling with the 2-4-5 in as many situations as possible, and just rotating players in and out like hockey. Last year it bit him in the behind. Offensive coaching staffs took advantage of the defensive alignment and put up big numbers on us. Which is why I think TT and Dom are trying to work together this off-season in one last try at building a Top 10 defense together. I see Dom wanting to run 3-4-4, 3-3-5, 3-2-6, and 2-2-7 defensive alignments this year. Base 3-4=20% 3-3-5 (The real base defense)=40% 3-2-6 (DIME)=25% and 2-2-7 (Quarters) 15%. No more 2-4-5. It is not big enough to stop the run against good, powerful O-lines (like Dallas/Tennessee), but also doesn't give you enough flexibility in personnel to get a pass rush later in games when offenses get aggressive. You're a sitting duck with that defense when you're trotting out 2 slow ILBs who can be isolated and exposed in the passing game, especially when your secondary is vulnerable at the corner spots like we were. Without any elephants, we gotta have 3 DLs on the field more to stop the run and push the pocket from the middle. With using Josh Jones and Morgan Burnett as ILBs, we can have the speed/athleticism in the middle we need to combat teams like ATL who have good receiving RBs. But in order to do that more consistently, we need to not have them caught in the wash. Which is why I would not expect to see the 2-4-5 at all this season, and only see two down lineman in obvious 3rd and long passing situations late in games when we are trying to protect a lead.

But, Ted is still ******** us over by leaving the OLB position cupboard dangerously bare. So Dom is still hamstrung. We're basically replacing Julius Peppers with Jayrone and Montravious Adams in terms of production (not schematically). Now, instead of trying to scheme the defense to get to 50 sacks in a season, and increase the turnovers that give Aaron more possessions, he has to find a way to manufacture consistent pressure/duplicate the 40 sack year we had on defense that STILL WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR US TO BE A COMPETENT CHAMPIONSHIP UNIT. This is why I can't be on the fire Capers train. Ted is the one who needs to go. Replace him with Eliot Wolf, and tell him to go shopping for some front seven goodies to help out Granddaddy Dom. Then we can properly evaluate him as a DC.

A few things.

I think we spend way too much time talking about base defense. It's being used less every year. Nickel/Dime are the true base defense formations in 2017, both for the Packers and around the league.

Because 5-6 defensive backs are on the field so regularly, you have to keep your roster stocked at that positions. That said, it's something of a recency bias to suggest that Thompson is fixated on corners/safeties. He has spent twice as many (6) first round picks on DL and edge rushers as he has on DB's (3). He has spent 13 picks in the top one hundred on front 7 defenders, vs. 10 on the secondary. You theorize, without basis, that Capers secretly wants to run these sets with fewer DB's, but that defies all reason. Capers has always been way out on the far end of the sub package trend. He isn't resisting it at all. He's thrown himself into it headlong. And besides, every single team in the league is trending away from base defense.

You seem to be suggesting that it was a mistake to keep Perry because if you combined Peppers and Jones' production, it was somewhat comparable to Perry. This makes no sense. First of all, there's the obvious problem that you can only have so many players on the field. So if you need two guys to replace the pressure you got from one, you're weaker somewhere else. Secondly, most of that combined total is coming from Peppers, who is 37.

Perry may not be more than a complimentary rusher moving forward, but he was certainly good enough to be the top guy last year. So I'm not certain why we would resign ourselves to the conclusion that he can only be a second option.

Also, Ted is not a "cheapskate." The Packers' spending is routinely near the top. He just philosophically doesn't believe in investing in other teams' free agents very frequently. He would rather spend to keep the vast majority of his own good players, which he has. You may disagree with that philosophy, but to suggest it's because he's cheap is incorrect.

Lastly, and just a friendly suggestion-- you may want to consider condensing your thoughts into a smaller package. You're bound to get more people actually reading and interacting that way.
 
D

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No meaningul information? Pizzle brought up quite a few different schematic and personnel issues and backed them up with examples. You can disagree with some or all of it but your lack of understanding isn't on Pizzle. I'm actually surprised you don't have a post twice as long dissecting or parsing every word.

Nearly every single topic pizzle brought up in his novel has already been dissected in-depth within the past few months and therefore offered no meaningful information. Aside of that I disagree with several of his points.
 

rmontro

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Nearly every single topic pizzle brought up in his novel has already been dissected in-depth within the past few months and therefore offered no meaningful information. Aside of that I disagree with several of his points.
Not sure what you have against Pizzle. But you do agree with his main point that Ted is not supplying Capers with the right players IIRC, even if you might disagree on the details.
 

Dantés

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Not sure what you have against Pizzle. But you do agree with his main point that Ted is not supplying Capers with the right players IIRC, even if you might disagree on the details.

Just for me, I have no issue if someone's opinion is that the fault for the poor defense falls mostly on Thompson. I tend to disagree, but I understand that some of the drafting on that side of the ball has been sub-par. If most of the youth currently on that side of the ball fails to develop, I will probably take that position myself. But just because I understand that position, or even if I agreed with it, that doesn't mean that I'll go along with any argument to that effect. Pizzle's main points were either outright false (TT is fixated on secondary to the exclusion of front 7, keeping Peppers and Jones would have amounted to basically the same thing as keeping Perry, etc) or baseless speculation (Capers, who runs more sub package than anyone in league, secretly wants to run base defense).
 

Dantés

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Just to get the hard data out there for those generally interested:

From 2008 to 2015, the amount of total NFL defensive snaps featuring 5 or more defensive backs rose from 43.4 to 63.4. That's 2.9% increase on average per year. I haven't seen the 2016 numbers anywhere yet (doesn't mean they aren't out there), but the trend would have it at 66.3% and would project 69.2% for 2017.

This means that so called "base defense" (along with other random formations, like GL or victory formations) will only account for about 30% of the total snaps in 2017. That doesn't make it irrelevant, but it does make it a little silly that we spend so much time arguing the ins and outs of the 3-4.

The reality is that, at this moment in the NFL, 3-4 and 4-3 defensive formations are the sub packages. The real "base" defenses are something along the lines of the 4-2-5 or the 2-4-5 (which basically amount to being the same thing).

This also highlights why you absolutely have to draft a lot of defensive backs. You essentially have 5 starters, a 6th guy is going to be a major role player, and then you still need true depth.
 
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azrsx05

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The thing is that I'm ok with giving a chance to rebound and not make those knee jerk reactions. But the trend for this defense has been heading the wrong way since 2011. At one point you have to look at the trend and make q decision to let the guy who has been there since go
 

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A few things.

I think we spend way too much time talking about base defense. It's being used less every year. Nickel/Dime are the true base defense formations in 2017, both for the Packers and around the league.

You theorize, without basis, that Capers secretly wants to run these sets with fewer DB's, but that defies all reason. Capers has always been way out on the far end of the sub package trend. He isn't resisting it at all. He's thrown himself into it headlong. And besides, every single team in the league is trending away from base defense.


I see Dom wanting to run 3-4-4, 3-3-5, 3-2-6, and 2-2-7 defensive alignments this year. Base 3-4=20% 3-3-5 (The real base defense)=40% 3-2-6 (DIME)=25% and 2-2-7 (Quarters) 15%. No more 2-4-5.

With using Josh Jones and Morgan Burnett as ILBs, we can have the speed/athleticism in the middle we need to combat teams like ATL who have good receiving RBs. But in order to do that more consistently, we need to not have them caught in the wash. Which is why I would not expect to see the 2-4-5 at all this season, and only see two down lineman in obvious 3rd and long passing situations late in games when we are trying to protect a lead.



Maybe, Dantés, if you took the time to understand my "novel" you would have seen that I was actually emphasizing the 2-4-5 vs the 3-3-5 as our "true" base defense of 2016 vs what should be our "true" base defense in 2017. I hope you were able to digest it better this time around by me highlighting certain parts.

You seem to be suggesting that it was a mistake to keep Perry because if you combined Peppers and Jones' production, it was somewhat comparable to Perry. This makes no sense. First of all, there's the obvious problem that you can only have so many players on the field. So if you need two guys to replace the pressure you got from one, you're weaker somewhere else. Secondly, most of that combined total is coming from Peppers, who is 37.

So you're telling me that depth is necessary in the DB room but not in the linebacking core, Dantés? Especially at arguably the most important position in a 3-4, the OLB position? That doesn't make any sense. Furthermore, JP signed for 3.5 million for 1 year in Carolina. Jones was got by Minny for an incentive-laden 1 year deal that could reach 5 million. Nick is slated to make around 21 million this coming year when you take his signing bonus into account. Even on a deal that gives GB flexibility if they deem his play not worth the full 5 years and 60 million, that is at least nearly twice what Green Bay probably could have gotten both of their elephants back for. Why is Ted willing to shell out that kinda cash, when Nick gets nicked up alot and if I think Ted is frugal? Because PAYING NICK VALIDATES HIM BEING SELECTED IN THE FIRST PLACE BY TED. Nick and Clay are two of those 6 1st round draft picks you mentioned earlier that Ted has made. Since a majority of them haven't worked out Ted is making sure he didn't lose one that is still around. I would have preferred he kept two guys and went after a couple more (Barwin, Ingram, Dumervil) for the price of one that is HIS guy. Get it?

Also, Ted is not a "cheapskate." The Packers' spending is routinely near the top. He just philosophically doesn't believe in investing in other teams' free agents very frequently. He would rather spend to keep the vast majority of his own good players, which he has. You may disagree with that philosophy, but to suggest it's because he's cheap is incorrect.


Review the numbers from these links. They are from the same Forbes piece on NFL team valuations in 2016:

https://www.forbes.com/teams/green-bay-packers/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/pittsburgh-steelers/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/seattle-seahawks/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/new-england-patriots/


I'm not going to conduct a dissertation on sports management, but by looking at revenue/operating income/player expenses listings it is clear to me that Green Bay is banking dough that they could be using to go "all in" like Aaron said in the NFCCG post-game presser. Even if you take into consideration gate receipts, like how much New England is making, you could also keep in mind that the Packers have upgrades/renovations to not only Lambeau but property around the stadium (those premo condo complexes they talked about on the team website awhile back come to mind) in the works that are probably designed to help get even MORE people to the games in the future.

I'll add this. Casey Hayward should have been retained. If we would have kept Charles Woodson around for an extra year or so, along with Casey, maybe we don't draft two corners in the 2015 draft back-to-back 1 and 2. And therefore, maybe we don't have to draft two DBs in the second round of this past draft. Which also means that we could have at least the flexibility to get some EDGE rushers/front seven impact players to help us slow down Dallas/Tennessee/ATL. Or maybe get another offensive lineman high to offset letting T.J. Lang go. Ted keeps guys, yes. But he also lets guys go nearly just as much. Simply put, good teams are spending more money than Green Bay to compete for championships. Ted is trying to do the most with the least, and that is part of the reason why we do not have all the horses to win a title in Titletown.

Wow, I've probably never seen another post that long not containing any meaningful information.

Nearly every single topic pizzle brought up in his novel has already been dissected in-depth within the past few months and therefore offered no meaningful information. Aside of that I disagree with several of his points.

Lastly, and just a friendly suggestion-- you may want to consider condensing your thoughts into a smaller package. You're bound to get more people actually reading and interacting that way.

captainWIMM, if you and Dantés have some personal issue with me, then fine. Just say so. But I do not know who either of you are in real life. And for that matter, I don't know who either of you THINK you are claiming to be Packers fans but being so disrespectful and trite to someone who has clearly shown he is a fellow fan. Claiming I didn't provide any meaningful information in the highlighted post I made last night is just sophomoric. In addition, stating that the topics I brought up "in my novel" had already been dissected is retarded. THIS IS A FORUM. Threads are made and topics are discussed in repetition/review of previously discussed themes constantly. Otherwise, why would we even post more than a few times a year on here?!?!?!?

Dantés, I'll end my soliloquy with this-your suggestion was condescending. It was insulting and backhanded. It was not "friendly". So you can keep it. And I will return it with this simple suggestion-if you do not have the aptitude nor patience to read through my posts, take less than 5 seconds and scroll down past them. It'll be like finger exercise. I'm assuming by your cantankerous responses to my posts that you need it. But I will continue to post how I choose, because it is apparent to me that not all of the contributors to this forum have your (and a few haters like you) sentiments towards my opinions.
 
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pizzle

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No meaningul information? Pizzle brought up quite a few different schematic and personnel issues and backed them up with examples. You can disagree with some or all of it but your lack of understanding isn't on Pizzle. I'm actually surprised you don't have a post twice as long dissecting or parsing every word.

Not sure what you have against Pizzle. But you do agree with his main point that Ted is not supplying Capers with the right players IIRC, even if you might disagree on the details.

Pkrjones and rmontro-thank you both. I hope to be able to interact on this forum with posters like you instead of people who seem to want to unnecessarily engage in contemptuous diatribe. Dissent is fine, as long as it is respectable and based on something tangible. I really have experienced the opposite on here and it's annoying. So thanks again guys, and Go Pack Go?

*Shrug...*
 

AmishMafia

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Wow, I've probably never seen another post that long not containing any meaningful information.
What is so damn funny, is I was skimming the post by Pizzle and thought it was yours. This is the same crap you post!
Nearly every single topic pizzle brought up in his novel has already been dissected in-depth within the past few months and therefore offered no meaningful information. Aside of that I disagree with several of his points.
yes! You spout the same stuff in a large percentage of your posts
 

Dantés

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Maybe, Dantés, if you took the time to understand my "novel" you would have seen that I was actually emphasizing the 2-4-5 vs the 3-3-5 as our "true" base defense of 2016 vs what should be our "true" base defense in 2017. I hope you were able to digest it better this time around by me highlighting certain parts.



So you're telling me that depth is necessary in the DB room but not in the linebacking core, Dantés? Especially at arguably the most important position in a 3-4, the OLB position? That doesn't make any sense. Furthermore, JP signed for 3.5 million for 1 year in Carolina. Jones was got by Minny for an incentive-laden 1 year deal that could reach 5 million. Nick is slated to make around 21 million this coming year when you take his signing bonus into account. Even on a deal that gives GB flexibility if they deem his play not worth the full 5 years and 60 million, that is at least nearly twice what Green Bay probably could have gotten both of their elephants back for. Why is Ted willing to shell out that kinda cash, when Nick gets nicked up alot and if I think Ted is frugal? Because PAYING NICK VALIDATES HIM BEING SELECTED IN THE FIRST PLACE BY TED. Nick and Clay are two of those 6 1st round draft picks you mentioned earlier that Ted has made. Since a majority of them haven't worked out Ted is making sure he didn't lose one that is still around. I would have preferred he kept two guys and went after a couple more (Barwin, Ingram, Dumervil) for the price of one that is HIS guy. Get it?




Review the numbers from these links. They are from the same Forbes piece on NFL team valuations in 2016:

https://www.forbes.com/teams/green-bay-packers/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/pittsburgh-steelers/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/seattle-seahawks/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/new-england-patriots/


I'm not going to conduct a dissertation on sports management, but by looking at revenue/operating income/player expenses listings it is clear to me that Green Bay is banking dough that they could be using to go "all in" like Aaron said in the NFCCG post-game presser. Even if you take into consideration gate receipts, like how much New England is making, you could also keep in mind that the Packers have upgrades/renovations to not only Lambeau but property around the stadium (those premo condo complexes they talked about on the team website awhile back come to mind) in the works that are probably designed to help get even MORE people to the games in the future.

I'll add this. Casey Hayward should have been retained. If we would have kept Charles Woodson around for an extra year or so, along with Casey, maybe we don't draft two corners in the 2015 draft back-to-back 1 and 2. And therefore, maybe we don't have to draft two DBs in the second round of this past draft. Which also means that we could have at least the flexibility to get some EDGE rushers/front seven impact players to help us slow down Dallas/Tennessee/ATL. Or maybe get another offensive lineman high to offset letting T.J. Lang go. Ted keeps guys, yes. But he also lets guys go nearly just as much. Simply put, good teams are spending more money than Green Bay to compete for championships. Ted is trying to do the most with the least, and that is part of the reason why we do not have all the horses to win a title in Titletown.







captainWIMM, if you and Dantés have some personal issue with me, then fine. Just say so. But I do not know who either of you are in real life. And for that matter, I don't know who either of you THINK you are claiming to be Packers fans but being so disrespectful and trite to someone who has clearly shown he is a fellow fan. Claiming I didn't provide any meaningful information in the highlighted post I made last night is just sophomoric. In addition, stating that the topics I brought up "in my novel" had already been dissected is retarded. THIS IS A FORUM. Threads are made and topics are discussed in repetition/review of previously discussed themes constantly. Otherwise, why would we even post more than a few times a year on here?!?!?!?

Dantés, I'll end my soliloquy with this-your suggestion was condescending. It was insulting and backhanded. It was not "friendly". So you can keep it. And I will return it with this simple suggestion-if you do not have the aptitude nor patience to read through my posts, take less than 5 seconds and scroll down past them. It'll be like finger exercise. I'm assuming by your cantankerous responses to my posts that you need it. But I will continue to post how I choose, because it is apparent to me that not all of the contributors to this forum have your (and a few haters like you) sentiments towards my opinions.

No, I never made he merest suggesting that OLB depth doesn't matter. I just pointed out the error in thinking that keeping two role players like Peppers and Jones is as good as keeping a guy of Perry's ability. In addition to being a 1st round pick of Thompson's, Perry was also one of the best pass rushers in the league last year and easily the best that came close to hitting the open market. Validation or not, you want to keep those guys.

Yes, the Packers make a lot of money. They're an extremely popular franchise. But that's kind of irrelevant. This is a capped league. In recent seasons, they've spent the 4th most of any club. That's not the work of a cheapskate. And again, you can hate his approach to FA. That's fair enough. But it doesn't then follow that the Packers are pinching pennies.

I would have preferred they kept Hayward and/or Hyde. They apparently don't value the 3rd corner position enough to pay what the market was setting for those guys. And Hayward never demonstrated the ability under Capers that he did once he left. To a degree I think that's an indictment of this defensive system and/or staff. But it's not true that Ted lets good players walk as often as he keeps them. Not remotely. Nearly every, single good player drafted by this FO gets a second contract. See for yourself here.

And lastly, yes that was a friendly suggestion. I think it might be helpful to know that a lot more people will read what you write if you fit it into a smaller package. And I never referred to it as a novel.

Here's another suggestion, less friendly this time: if you're going to be this sensitive on an internet forum, you should consider putting everyone who doesn't agree with everything you say on ignore. It's not going to go super well otherwise.
 

Sky King

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Pkrjones and rmontro-thank you both. I hope to be able to interact on this forum with posters like you instead of people who seem to want to unnecessarily engage in contemptuous diatribe. Dissent is fine, as long as it is respectable and based on something tangible. I really have experienced the opposite on here and it's annoying. So thanks again guys, and Go Pack Go?

*Shrug...*
It was a well thought-out post. Keep posting. I wouldn't get too discouraged about the entire forum membership though if you're so tempted. Some posters will routinely challenge others when they disagree with them and will do so without being derisive. The majority of posters read it and move-on to the next post without so much as a comment or a rating, and that may be even more likely when some members get into a dust-up within a thread.

Personally, I much prefer to avoid participating in or even bother to read any of those posts unless I happen to be square in the middle of the dust-up myself. FWIW, this post is an exception. ;)
 

pizzle

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It was a well thought-out post. Keep posting. I wouldn't get too discouraged about the entire forum membership though if you're so tempted. Some posters will routinely challenge others when they disagree with them and will do so without being derisive. The majority of posters read it and move-on to the next post without so much as a comment or a rating, and that may be even more likely when some members get into a dust-up within a thread.

Personally, I much prefer to avoid participating in or even bother to read any of those posts unless I happen to be square in the middle of the dust-up myself. FWIW, this post is an exception. ;)

Appreciate the advice, Sky King...

In recent seasons, they've spent the 4th most of any club. That's not the work of a cheapskate. And again, you can hate his approach to FA. That's fair enough. But it doesn't then follow that the Packers are pinching pennies.

I'll acknowledge that spending the 4th most of any team in cash does not look like pinching pennies. I could bring up a bunch of other stuff, but I prefer to talk about football X's and O's, not football finances. So-I'll temper my "Ted is a cheapskate" comment by stating that while the Packers might not be the equivalent of the Brewers when it comes to spending money, I don't agree with how Ted comes to quite a few of the business decisions that affect personnel. I also think that it is more than plausible that due to Ted favoring low-round draft picks/UDFAs being given ample opportunity to make the team he does not work as hard at bringing in veterans via FA that could push us over the top. And lastly, it is clear to me that Ted looks for deals in contracts with many of our own impact players when they are looking to get paid around second contract time and at the height of their market value. This practice is a slippery slope because it breeds the stereotype of GB being "cheap" and not a place that players can come to and get paid if they've played somewhere else. Also, in the event that a player leaves via FA, the D&D approach has been proven to not be the perfect solution. If it was-we wouldn't have constant holes/question marks about the roster over the past few seasons. We also would be reloading like New England and playing in Super Bowls year after year instead of getting bounced out of the tournament after battling tooth and nail to win the division year after year.


Dantés-relax. Take a deep breath. And realize you do not dictate my internet forum decorum. I do. I am a sensible individual. That doesn't mean I'm sensitive. I think you (and others like you) could grow up a little but I'm not going to jump over a a bridge because you don't agree with something I said online. I will admit that you've irritated me, so hopefully me throwing you a bone with the "cheapskate" statement will help you adequately feel like you've defended your beloved TT's honor, lol...

Can we get back to talking about Dom and the defense now?
 

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Appreciate the advice, Sky King...



I'll acknowledge that spending the 4th most of any team in cash does not look like pinching pennies. I could bring up a bunch of other stuff, but I prefer to talk about football X's and O's, not football finances. So-I'll temper my "Ted is a cheapskate" comment by stating that while the Packers might not be the equivalent of the Brewers when it comes to spending money, I don't agree with how Ted comes to quite a few of the business decisions that affect personnel. I also think that it is more than plausible that due to Ted favoring low-round draft picks/UDFAs being given ample opportunity to make the team he does not work as hard at bringing in veterans via FA that could push us over the top. And lastly, it is clear to me that Ted looks for deals in contracts with many of our own impact players when they are looking to get paid around second contract time and at the height of their market value. This practice is a slippery slope because it breeds the stereotype of GB being "cheap" and not a place that players can come to and get paid if they've played somewhere else. Also, in the event that a player leaves via FA, the D&D approach has been proven to not be the perfect solution. If it was-we wouldn't have constant holes/question marks about the roster over the past few seasons. We also would be reloading like New England and playing in Super Bowls year after year instead of getting bounced out of the tournament after battling tooth and nail to win the division year afte-relax. Take a deep breath. And realize you do not dictate my internet forum decorum. I do. I am a sensible individual. That doesn't mean I'm sensitive. I think you (and others like you) could grow up a little but I'm not going to jump over a a bridge because you don't agree with something I said online. I will admit that you've irritated me, so hopefully me throwing you a bone with the "cheapskate" statement will help you adequately feel like you've defended your beloved TT's honor, lol...

Can we get back to talking about Dom and the defense now?

It was pretty easy in this case, as most of what you were saying was simply incorrect. Looking forward to our next exchange! And thanks for the bone.
 

pizzle

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So-let's say we did fire Dom?


Who are we gonna replace him with right now that will take our personnel as currently constructed and win a SB?

It's not possible. There is no one available who has either the track record or upstart promise to succeed Capers with confidence IMO.

So I ask-who would you want to replace Dom with if we had a magic wand-say, after this season? Because this January-you never know-we could actually be looking to replace Dom.

There's two guys I would want if we ever decided to move on from Dom. 1st choice-Romeo Crennel. I think if you know anything about football that's a no-brainer. Since he's the assistant head coach in Houston currently and they're stocked with stud defenders I highly doubt he's leaving the monster he built down there any time soon. But if we could lure him away by promising him more $$$ + equal responsibility in GB, I think he'd force Ted to shake up the defensive personnel in the front seven enough to make a quick and forceful impact. 2nd choice-Dave Aranda. I think he's a nice young coach that is more than likely successful because he is good at making certain elements of the 3-4 seem simplified to younger players. If that is the case, that's a great ability to have on a team like ours where Ted tries to keep the roster as young and low in salary as possible, especially on defense. His Wisconsin units were impressive, and LSU's defense churned out a bunch of NFL draft picks this past season, so if we were looking for someone to pair with TT to make chicken salad out of chicken sh**, he'd be the guy.
 

Dantés

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I find Jerome Henderson interesting. He's worked under a wide variety of defensive coaching styles, has had success everywhere, and most recently has seen his position group play really well with a bunch of young guys. That's my dart. Winston Moss is the obvious in house candidate.
 

pizzle

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I find Jerome Henderson interesting. He's worked under a wide variety of defensive coaching styles, has had success everywhere, and most recently has seen his position group play really well with a bunch of young guys. That's my dart. Winston Moss is the obvious in house candidate.


I think Henderson would be a nice guy to look at, but my question would be what would that mean for Joe Whitt, Jr.?

I think Winston Moss as an in-house replacement, along with Joe, would be good alternatives for passing on a former DC with more experience
 
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The thing is that I'm ok with giving a chance to rebound and not make those knee jerk reactions. But the trend for this defense has been heading the wrong way since 2011. At one point you have to look at the trend and make q decision to let the guy who has been there since go

The problem being that there's no way to know if the defense has struggled over the past six seasons because of a lack of talent or the defensive scheme. Therefore it's tough to figure out who is mostly to blame for the unit's shortcomings.

Furthermore, JP signed for 3.5 million for 1 year in Carolina. Jones was got by Minny for an incentive-laden 1 year deal that could reach 5 million. Nick is slated to make around 21 million this coming year when you take his signing bonus into account. Even on a deal that gives GB flexibility if they deem his play not worth the full 5 years and 60 million, that is at least nearly twice what Green Bay probably could have gotten both of their elephants back for. Why is Ted willing to shell out that kinda cash, when Nick gets nicked up alot and if I think Ted is frugal? Because PAYING NICK VALIDATES HIM BEING SELECTED IN THE FIRST PLACE BY TED. Nick and Clay are two of those 6 1st round draft picks you mentioned earlier that Ted has made. Since a majority of them haven't worked out Ted is making sure he didn't lose one that is still around. I would have preferred he kept two guys and went after a couple more (Barwin, Ingram, Dumervil) for the price of one that is HIS guy. Get it?

The Packers re-signed Perry because he's currently their best pass rusher and on addition by far the best run defender among the team's outside linebackers.

What is so damn funny, is I was skimming the post by Pizzle and thought it was yours. This is the same crap you post!

yes! You spout the same stuff in a large percentage of your posts

Another typical post by you not containing anything about the team but attacking me because I have dared to criticize Thompson in the past, sonething you can't cope with because of your man crush on him.

So-let's say we did fire Dom?

Who are we gonna replace him with right now that will take our personnel as currently constructed and win a SB?

I would like the Packers to hire Rocky Seto, who is only 41 years old and has been the Seahawks defensive passing game coordinator since 2012 as well as their assistant head coach on defense over the past two seasons.
 

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I see Moss's name tossed around every few years or so, but I have to wonder if he'd really be the guy? I know he has an assistant head coach title, but I don't know that they guy has ever been in charge in anything more than linebackers going back a long ways.

I know he's well liked, but you'd think he'd have a change in responsibilities by now, grow that resume. Are these promotions in title only so he gets paid more and can't be just plucked away, or is really involved in more than just the linebackers?
 

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Not sure what you have against Pizzle. But you do agree with his main point that Ted is not supplying Capers with the right players IIRC, even if you might disagree on the details.
Perhaps it was the way Pizzle worded it. Quite a few assumptions and snarky, condescending jabs towards Thompson in that post. I definitely came away with it appearing that Thompson is very unprofessional in his role as GM.
 
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