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FA Guard

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by NDPackerFan, Feb 4, 2006.

  1. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I would love it if the Packers made a legitimate attempt to bring in Steve Hutchinson from Seattle. What do you guys think of this? I think it would be a move that could push the O-Line back to respectability and the running game could get rolling again...

    I think the Seahawks may place the tag on him though....

    Anyway, just thought I'd bring that up. I hear the Vikes are looking at signing him in the offseason...I hope we get into the bidding for the guy.
     
  2. retiredgrampa

    retiredgrampa Cheesehead

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    The question is whether ANY team would pay his high price to cover the Guard position. Frankly, I would but no one has given me that responsibility. I've always been a believer in a strong Ol ever since St. Vince put one together here. Then again, there are teams like Texas and USC who had great OLs...they should be draftable at a much cheaper price.
     
  3. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Based on what Wahle and Rivera got last season, this guy is going to break the bank. He is better than those two and has a better upside.

    I don't think TT will pay that much for a guard if he wouldn't do it for Wahle.
     
  4. JbShell

    JbShell Cheesehead

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    I think he would have but there was no money to give.
     
  5. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    Good point!
     
  6. Toronto_Cheesehead

    Toronto_Cheesehead Cheesehead

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    I think Hutchinson will be tagged.
     
  7. ChuckSTG

    ChuckSTG Cheesehead

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    If TT didn't spend the money on Whale or Rivera sure as hell not going to go for Hutchinson. He doesn't even really beleive in FA. He'll get a guard in the draft.
     
  8. LambeauLeaper

    LambeauLeaper Cheesehead

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    I love how one poster (in this case, JBshell) goes through the trouble of pointing out that TT didn't have the money to keep Wahle (not Whale, for the 123,778th time) and Rivera, yet others completely ignore it and say he didn't want to spend the money. I'm not trying to be cranky, but I just wish people would actually read the subsequent posts and not just the headline post before replying. :-?
     
  9. arrowgargantuan

    arrowgargantuan Cheesehead

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    deep breaths LL, deep breaths...
     
  10. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    Actually, as I've pointed out several times, TT did have enough salary cap space to sign Wahle, but chose not to use it.

    GB ended the year at ~$1.9 million below the cap. Klemm cost GB ~$1 million against the cap. So without working the cap but not signing Klemm, there's ~$2.9 million. Say TT offered a $12 million signing bonus for a 6 year contract. That's $2 million per year for the signing bonus. Typical salary in the first year of a big contract is the minimum at ~$600k. So Wahle would have cost $2.6 million against the cap this year, leaving ~$300k.

    TT could have saved more money for Wahle's contract by no signing O'Dwyer either along with making other moves.

    source: http://members.cox.net/cappage/2005cap.htm

    Now anyone can argue all day that it was too much money to spend for a guard. You can also argue that it was impossible to know the impact due to players not being able to step up. But there was enough money to sign either Wahle or Rivera.
     
  11. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    I had posted a reply weeks ago about Hutch and most felt he would cost to much. Unfortunately, we would obviously have more money if BF retires and it would make sense to consider him in an effort to shore up the "0" line, bolster the running game, and protect AR.
    If Flannigan returns healthy, Taush, Clif, and, Hutch would be a heck of a line for any QB to have in front of them.
    The best of both worlds would be to go after him and Brett not retire but that's less likely than if the extra $ became available.
     
  12. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I think TT does not like to go for FA cuz 99% of the time all he sees are tapes of players, and reports from scouts...So for him it is like just hoping a guy is going to stay good..

    With Hutch he knows him, helped draft him and this might play a big part...
     
  13. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Thank god you're not my accountant.
     
  14. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    I suppose you're happy that TT wasted almost $2 million in cap space at the end of the season rather than using it to sign any of the 14 FAs.

    There were many other salary cap moves that TT could have made last offseason to free up more cap space. Heck, he paid out a bonus of $1.2 million to Hunt and then cut him while injured so GB still had to pay him his salary. Hunt cost the team $3.2 million last season and will still count $3.6 million against the cap for this season.

    There wasn't a lot of cap space, but the point is that TT had enough cap space in order to sign Wahle. He could have gone the cheaper route and signed Rivera prior to him receiving that ridiculous offer from Dallas. Instead he bet that both guards were expendible and didn't bother with either.
     
  15. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Source

    By releasing guard Mike Wahle, whose contract was structured in a way that his $11.337 million cap number would force the Packers to renegotiate or cut him, the Packers will gain $11 million of cap room.

    But even minus the $11 million from Wahle, the Packers will be only slightly under the $85.5 million cap next Tuesday, and that's assuming they don't re-sign any of their nine unrestricted free agents - including guard Marco Rivera and linebacker Hannibal Navies - before the start of free agency.

    They are in a bit of a tight spot.

    "There's a lot of moving parts there," general manager Ted Thompson said. "Things are being talked about."

    Wiping Wahle's $11 million salary - a $5 million base and $6 million roster bonus - off the books will provide the necessary room to get under the cap, but things get a lot more complicated if the Packers try to renegotiate the deal. At this point there isn't any sign they're willing to meet his desire to be paid among the top guards in the league, but talks are ongoing.

    If the Packers were $6 million or $8 million under the cap, they'd be able to compete for Wahle's services and probably also be able to make a reasonable offer to Rivera.

    But that's not the case after several years of continually handing out big contracts to their impending free agents.
     
  16. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    The cap situation was worse in 2001 when both Sharper and Longwell were set to become FAs:
    http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/feb ... 022201.asp

    "The Packers have until March 2 to cut roughly $13.6 million from their salary cap to make it under the new limit or face major sanctions from the National Football League."

    That year GB was able to get under the cap and still sign both Longwell and Sharper to big contracts.

    In the situation from last offseason, TT did well to create more cap space. But he didn't use that cap space to help the team, unless you consider signing Klemm and O'Dwyer being capable replacements to Wahle and Rivera.

    Instead of cutting Wahle, TT could have chosen to work out a contract extension with a major signing bonus.

    There are always ways to work the salary cap, but there are of course consequences to doing so. Still the fact is that TT could have worked the salary cap to sign one of our OGs last offseason.
     
  17. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I posted something about that exact situation..My post on this last week

    In your article, it mentioned Brett was going to re-do his contract to help the situation..If you look more into it, look at what other players did to help the cap room for that year...

    Why isn't Wahle or Sharper catching as much flak for not wanting to take a pay cut???



    Sorce for this article

    -- The Packers are still about $4 million over the 2001 salary cap, which is expected to be about $68.7 million. They need to get at or under the cap by March 2. Unless they take pay cuts, look for RB Dorsey Levens, T Earl Dotson and C Frank Winters to be gone. The savings under the cap if they're cut: Levens, $4.6 million; Dotson, $1.95 million; Winters, $1.7 million.
    -- SS LeRoy Butler took a pay cut, freeing up $980,000 under the cap. He'll get about $4 million over the next 2 years -- about $1.75 million this year and about $2.25 million in 2002. Other possible candidates for restructured deals: DTs Santana Dotson and Russell Maryland, LB Brian Williams and Bernardo Harris, and CB Tyrone Williams.

    -- Doesn't seem as if Earl Dotson will be back. The Packers haven't talked to him about a pay cut from the $2.5 million he's to make next season. The offensive line may change greatly before next season. Dotson, Winters and LG Ross Verba all may be gone. Only LT Chad Clifton is a lock. RG Marco Rivera could move to LG if Mark Tauscher is moved to G. Mike Flanagan could take over for Winters.
    _________________

    Dorsey, Winters, and Dotson all played a few more years for the Pack...They must have taken a pay cut to stay..So it was more the players willing to stay then Mike being able to re work a contract to keep them...



    Salary Cap for 2001
     
  18. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    Actually if I recall correctly, both Wahle and Sharper took flack on this board last season.

    Sharper ended up signing a similar deal to what TT offered. Basically too much pride to stay in GB.

    Wahle had numerous quotes about his unwillingness to stay in GB for less money.

    I think we can all agree that the loss of Sharper didn't appear that bad. TT did a good job of replacing him with Freeman, Little and Collins. It turned out that Collins was the best of the 3, but TT found capable replacements.

    In the case of Wahle and Rivera, there was a significant lack of capable replacements found. Klemm and O'Dwyer were disappointing before signing with GB. Both had injury problems and neither showed much promise. It was a mistake to not find better FAs. Sherman then compounded the mistake by not starting Barry at RT and moving Tauscher inside, along with keeping Klemm and Witt in the line-up with Wells and Reugy on the bench.

    There are many factors that contribute to the salary cap. Overpaying for players does hurt the future of the cap. In order to sign Wahle, TT would have needed to sacrifice future cap savings and swallow the fact that an OG is being paid like a LT. He choice not to do that, and not signing capable replacements handicapped the offense.
     
  19. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I would agree with most of that...But I would have HOPED that our old line coach Larry ( whom I think everyone agrees is an awesome coach and judge of talent) had a lot of input on the guys that were capable of starting..

    He had more then enough opportunity to see all in action and he probably was the one Sherman trusted in saying who starts and who doesn't, who gets moved and who doesn't..
     
  20. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    BobbyRoberts,
    You continue to put in post after post about how TT "could have" signed Wahle or Rivera after many in here have stated how that just couldn't happen.
    LET IT GO! I SURRENDER! CUDDA, WUDDA, SHUDDA!!! GEEZ!

    This post isn't even about that! It's about where we are going.

    I would love to have Hutchinson. I doubt we will go there as he will cost a bunch. I think TT will try to make improvements to as many positions as he can before unloading a lot of $ on one player.

    I DO think that if we are going to get Brett back we will go to FA for a guard. I don't think he wants to line up with the guys he had in front of him again this year.
     
  21. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    Hutchinson would be a great addition, I've said that in many other posts over the past few months.

    I think we need one solid veteran FA guard to come in and then let Wells, Reugy, Witt, Coston, White, etc battle it out to fill the other OG and at center. Hutchinson would go a long way to creating another great OL.

    The OL must be TT's top priority this offseason. Our struggles last year were due to problems on offense, not defense or special teams. With a strong OL, all of the other offensive struggles will handle themselves.

    With or without Favre, GB's keys to sucess will be continuing to improve the defense and a good OL for a strong running game.
     
  22. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    AMEN!
    My guess is we will draft 3 of the first 4 on the defensive side of the ball and look at FA to help the "O" line. I know the old staff felt like this Coston had the most talent of any of them but needed some time coming from a smaller school. I am not sure that his strenghs do or do not fit this zone scheme but the guys working with him last year felt he was really going to be a good guard.

    Maybe he'll step up this year. I also read somewhere that Wells is supposed to have the athleticism that they look for in this scheme. So I agree with the thinking we need to bring in ONE GOOD FA guard and hope these others come thru for us.
     

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