1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

Discussion about cards and authenticiy...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ivo610, Mar 29, 2010.

  1. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Most of the stuff card companies cut up and put on cards is fake. Early on most of it was real but now they are just cutting up anything and slapping it on cards. Their ethics are terrible. Upper Deck just lost a lawsuit for breaking contract and overproducing thousands of cards from a company they had an agreement with over rights. Another big company lost its rights produce MLB cards, and they just started printing anyways. I do know that the card companies will bid on jerseys at auction, and frequently buy bad jerseys. If they know this or not I do not know.
     
  2. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22

    WOW, millions of people are going to be really pissed about this huh? Come on. The cards UD overproduced were Yu Gi Oh cards (or whatever that game is). I guess I can take every jersey card that I have and sue each individual company for fraud and for faking COA's which are printed on the back of every jersey card. This has always been debated. It has been found that majority and I mean a very HIGH majority of the jersey cards are infact real. The ones that turn out to be fake are collectors or whoever out there buy fake jerseys, get a simple 1 color patch and turn it into a 3-4 color patch and putting it on ebay.
     
  3. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    lol @ people taking COAs seriously. Next Im going to hear Lou Lampson can be trusted.

    The honest truth is there is no way for anyone to know if what they use is real because they chop them up and sell them on cards. No ability to photomatch or videomatch. And if anyone thinks something is real because a piece of paper tells you its real, then your an idiot. Of course if it comes with solid paperwork from a team or player that helps but doesnt mean its legit either. Even the packers have been guilty of that over the years.
     
  4. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    On all of the jersey cards produced, the following statement is printed on the card:

    "Certificate of Authenticity. The enclosed piece of material was cut from an Authentic item personally worn by "player name" in an Official NFL Game. The authentic Game-Worn item was obtained and its guarenteed by Donruss"

    So, all of these card companies print this false COA on the back of the card? And no one has said anything for 12-13 years? You know a law is being broken and didnt say anything? Fraud is a felony you know....

    Chris Johnson was recently (last week) at a trading convention to sell autos etc... youre telling me that walking through the tables and tables of cards he saw his fake jersey cards and didnt say anything? Give me a break! So some card company can produce fake game used jersey cards, mark up the price for that fact alone, basically making money off of these players and the players arent going to sue to company??? Someone should notify Manning, LT, AP and all of the thousands of other players who have had game used jersey cards made of them, they are owed alot of money!
     
  5. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Your going to need to explain to me why the players would be owed money for a company selling "game used" cards. I dont think you have a full understanding of the business....

    Chris Johnson was at the chicago show last week, but I doubt he spent much time looking over the tables. You really think he even cares? Favre sold fake game worn jerseys, signed them, and took a picture with them. I can promise you they dont care.

    Any idiot with any legal knowledge can explain to you that COAs dont make a company legally responsible if its fake. Otherwise Lou Lampson would be in prison.

    And a ton of people have complained about fakes from card companies, from jersey cards to autographs themselves. Did you hear about the $85,000 card that Upper Deck sold that was fake?
     
  6. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Can someone move this topic to a different part of the forum maybe? I feel this will go on for awhile and shouldnt take over this board.
     
  7. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Its from the UD wikipedia page (so take it with a grain of salt) but it basically repeats what I said.


    "Upper Deck has changed their practice of using materials that they certify as being "Worn" by the player depicted on the front of the card. The changes in wording on the backs of the cards now make it less clear as to how the materials were used, or if it had been worn by the player or anyone at all.
    EXAMPLE: Steve Nash card 2004... (Back of card) On the front of this card is an authentic piece of a jersey WORN by Steve Nash as a member of the Dallas Mavericks in an NBA game.
    EXAMPLE: Jermaine O'Neal card 2006 Exquisite...(Back of card) On the front of this is a piece of memorabilia that has been certified to us as having been USED in an NBA game.
    Upper Deck also has removed from the front of the cards the word "Jersey" in game used cards. Upper Deck no longer acknowledges exactly what kind of material it is that they have inserted in the card, nor how it was used, and has eliminated the wording that it was actually worn by the player pictured on the front of the card. Upper Deck's authenticity has been questioned in regards to players' jersey and uniform materials. The cards state that it is known to Upper Deck to have been used, worn, etc. but since most of the gear is acquired through third parties the actual use is not known. Most of their jersey materials are harvested at events like rookie photo shoots, etc.. At such events players often change their shirts, dozens and dozens of times, to generate event worn uniform material that never sees the field of play.
    Collectors still debate and question the authenticity of this 'memorabilia" which often includes manufactured specifically for the cards patches and other desirable chase content."
     
  8. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    Did I not say that?

    Getting back to the CJ thing. I know for a fact that he did not spend any time looking through the tables and that he doesnt care, he got paid to be there and thats all that matters. But on his way to his booth/table where people lined up to obtain autos, pictures etc, you dont think he passed by some of the dealers tables?

    The players would be owed money because these card companies are taking a piece of a jersey, placing it into a card, creating a COA with each individual player name inserted and selling it. Lets take a base card. Its valued at $2.00, insert a RPM event worn jersey from 2008 that CJ wore at the shoot and now that base card is worth $25.00 as a jersey card. They just made $23.00 on the fact alone that a piece of a jersey that CJ wore has been inserted and authenticated by the company and essentially CJ. That would be fraud and the players could sue the company.

    If these players are unaware that this is being done, you dont think they would care? The card company is making money off of their name, and good amounts of it too! Its all about the money for them. Thats why they would be owed money.

    So I can go to the store. Buy 10 authentic stitched jerseys, sell them as being worn by that player, the player finds out Im doing this and he is not going to care? And if you dont think they know about this then youre fooling yourself. A few weeks ago CM3 was posting fake autographed jersey links on his twitter, and stating that these jersey's are fake, I never signed them.

    About Favre, I did not know this. He autographed fake equipment and sold them himself? But his authentic autograph was on the stuff???

    Im not saying that fake patched dont exist, they do. And I am well aware of UD and the amount of trouble they have been in. Just search youtube, theres a good video about it. But to say all GU cards are fake is stretching it I think
     
  9. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2008
    Messages:
    8,471
    Ratings:
    +980
  10. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    You did say that but I never argued that point about event worn items, it would be irresponsible of me to edit that post. I just took the whole thing and cut and pasted it. I never said anything about rookie photo shoots, I posted that because we disagreed on COAs among other things.

    The jerseys are owned by the team then sold or given away. The players have no rights to the jerseys (unless special arrangements are made such as peyton manning for his peyback foundation or Favre for his pilot). Its fraud and its in the hands of the FBI but I dont think the player has much of a shake in the whole thing. If Topps was going to make a deal for equipment they would most likely make a deal with a team. Sometimes they buy from an auction house. They say they think everything they sell is legit but that is not the case as any collector will tell you.

    I assume your talking about the HBO real sports video?

    As far as Favre goes there is no proof that he willingly signed items that were fake but the stories are out there that say he just cared about the $ and would swear at people who questioned him when he signed items that clearly were not game worn. Here is a great article about a situation that sadely became common place with favres equipment in the past 10 years.

    http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co.../PDF/favre.pdf

    I never said all game worn jersey cards were fake, I said most. I think if you picked 100 random game worn jersey cards on ebay, over 50 would be fake. Maybe I just feel that way because this business is one of fraud and forgery. With little or no way of proving a swatch is real, the opportunity is huge to commit fraud.
     
  11. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    Yes, HBO Real Sports made the video I was talking about. I find it hard to believe that if this is the case, that 50 of 100 game used cards are fake, that this hasnt caught on, and card companies are still making a fortune off of these fake cards. I also think that another piece of evidence to my argument is what you said "the $ is more important". With card companies charging anywhere between $120-$500 for a box of cards, I think it is entirely possible for lets say Panini, formely Donruss to go to the Packers for example and say we will give you $5,000 per jersey or $25,000 for 5 jerseys of major stars, cut them up and insert them into game used jersey cards.

    There are also other good videos on youtube of I think Panini, signing a contract with Kobe, a rep from Panini going to a Lakers game then to the locker room after the game, obtaining the sneakers Kobe played in the night and having him sign them. Why would Kobe do this? Because he probably just made $8,000.

    Do you collect?
     
  12. OldSchoolFan

    OldSchoolFan Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2010
    Messages:
    793
    Ratings:
    +307
    My Mickey Mantel, Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth cards must be worth nothing...guess I'll use them to start the bonfires now...:suicide:
     
  13. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Do I collect cards? No, I have not in many years but I do collect game worn items. I have posted some of my stuff on different parts of this forum.

    Kobe's shoes and game worn jersey cards are different things. There are alot more ways to check if the shoes are legit.

    Do you only collect cards or do you collect a little bit of everything?
     
  14. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    They are all game worn jersey cards?
     
  15. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    I only collect cards. I cannot afford to buy authentic memorabilia like signed helmets, jerseys etc, and I dont trust the random autographed mini helmet on EBAY with a computer printout COA. I have a Packers card collection with a total value of about $1500-$2000 which include autos of players like Hornung, Lofton, Jennings, Matthews, Hawk etc. Card collection is my way of showing my Packers pride and obtaining authentic Packers autographs and game worn jersey cards that I would otherwise not be able to have because living in NY, there arent many Packers fans or related activities. One of these days I will have to take pics of my collection and upload the pics.
    Dont get me wrong, I have framed pictures, jerseys and magazines to hang on my walls, but my pride and joy at the moment is my Packers card collection.
     
  16. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    If you want me to pick up something signed for you when the packers have a signing let me know.
     
  17. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    LOL well based on your argument, how can I trust you and your authenticity? LOL. Im just kidding. That would be amazing if you could do that. What does stuff cost? They break it up but like 8x10 pic is one price while a football is another price. Is that how it works? I seriously may have to take you up on your offer.
     
  18. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    I think you would be able to trust me if I wasnt making any money on it. :icon_biggrin:

    Depends on the event, for example last year the WRs signed for donations to the salvation army, and I think they wanted everyone to give like $10 per signature or something close to that. Other stuff just depends. Some stuff is free, like the tour around wisconsin they are doing next month. Not sure about training camp though. Just pay me for whatever item you want me to buy to have signed.

    I hope I didnt open pandoras box and have people from all over the world doing this lol
     
  19. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    Alright that would be great. Keep me up to date about signings. Is there a website where I can find them around you? How do you find out about them?
     
  20. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    • Like Like x 2
  21. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    Wow! Id be very interested in getting Clifton and Collins to sign! Well as the time approaches, I will message you and we can work this out. 1 rep for you. Thanks!
     
  22. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    Do you live in the city or near buffalo? I might ask you to return the favor some day.

    you should really check out my post in show your packer pride, and my post in the atrium section under non packer memorabilia. I think you would like some of that stuff.
     
  23. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    No I live about 10 mins from Albany. The only team up here for TC are the Giants :sigh:. Not sure if they will be back this season or not. They have been here for the last 10 or so years and they built the training facility last season in NJ so we will see. Interested in the Giants if they do come back?
     
  24. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2010
    Messages:
    16,590
    Ratings:
    +4,273
    I am trying to collect every helmet of every team, but I dont have a giants helmet yet. If I do by training camp I would be interested. I have a superbowl ticket I would like signed by Eli but I imagine that would be extremely hard. But lets wait and see. If LT is ever in your area I would pay for him to sign my HOF helmet.
     
  25. A12ROD903

    A12ROD903 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2009
    Messages:
    570
    Ratings:
    +22
    I will keep my eye out for LT and the Jets. The Giants arent too hard obtain, the Giant I had the most trouble with was Shockey when he was a rookie, he never signed. Im not sure how I would get a helmet though. Are you talking GU or used helmet?

    On a Giants note ,I have a anniversary book I believe that I got signed one training camp by Strahan, Sehorn, Collins I believe and a ton others. I think thats coloest thing I was able to get auto'd.
     

Share This Page