Davante Adams

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That just goes to show you how out of touch with reality these players are. Unfortunately they need to crash to get a wake up call. While Davante is a great WR, I have his ratio of beating last years number by at least 100 yards at 20:1 (15:1 if he plays 17 games)

Coming within 100 yards (4:1 over 17 games)
6:1

Surpassing 1375 (2:1 in 17 games)
3:1

He’s a 1275 guy with a good QB like Carr over a 16-17 game season. Give or take. That’s worth about $18M. He’ll need 1,750+ yards and 17TD to flirt in an argument that validates a $28M expenditure (just from a risk/reward argument)

Carr averages 24 TD per season and Davante basically needs to capture 70% of them. Not happening.
 
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captainWIMM

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Now that that’s behind us. It was his decision to leave for less $$ Han the Packers offered. Correct me if I’m wrong here. It was beyond control of our FO to retain him within reason. You normally seem like a logical fellow, I highly doubt you pay Adams over $30M annual

Any team that loses their #1 WR ..
let me rephrase that…. Any team that loses an All-Pro level WR is going to be dramatically lessened.
I don’t think that comes as such a big surprise.


Take into account that MVS wanted $10M annual area in FA and then you have a very tough decision. Take Compensatory draft selection plus save $10.5M annual (approx, but less the replacement player). Call it Romeo Doubs etc..


Put your Captain GM hat on. You have zero control over Adams leaving. Done deal. Bye bye.

Then MVS asks you to beat his offer or he’s bye bye. What would you do??
If you retain him. Which players do you cut around $10M? Let’s balance our teams checkbook together. I’m on your team. :tup:

Please give yes or no. Then list your player cuts if it’s yes.

Adams is responsible for him leaving but there's no reason to blame him for a lack of talent on the depth chart behind him.

Ok. Ok. @Sunshinepacker Let’s do it your way and convince me please.
You get Pittman. I’ll fire Sammy.

We lost 1,983 yards of 2021 WR production. Plus 14 TD (MVS+Adams)
Pittman scored 3.5 TD average per season. Sammy scored 4.375 TD per season.

Sammy Watkins career average
(632 yards per)is -158 yards less than Pittman career (792 per average season) and 1 TD less per year.
We gain 158 season yardage and lose a TD.

1,983
- 158 (I’m giving you the Pittman + adjustment)
______
______
1825

We’re also allowing you a +158 yards bonus difference in ability adjustment to because I’m feeling fair! :) So Pittman gets 950 yards (792 career avg + 158 per season adjust over Sammy average) adjusted and thus 1033.5 yards left over ti be accounted for.

Also 14 TD lost f/2021 season
+ Sammy picked up about 1 TD more Using Pittman though we lose 1 TD


Where are the other LOST
15 TD’s and 1,033 yards coming from? ?

Heaven help me if you say TE’s :cry:


And who is our backup QB again?? We need to list him here to be fair because Jordan never happened.

It's a strange approach to use Pittman's career average after only two seasons. He had 1,082 receiving yards last season and is still improving entering his third season. In addition is there any reason you ignored Higgins being mentioned as well. He had over 1,000 receiving yards last year as well.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Ok. Ok. @Sunshinepacker Let’s do it your way and convince me please.
You get Pittman. I’ll fire Sammy.

We lost 1,983 yards of 2021 WR production. Plus 14 TD (MVS+Adams)
Pittman scored 3.5 TD average per season. Sammy scored 4.375 TD per season.

Sammy Watkins career average
(632 yards per)is -158 yards less than Pittman career (792 per average season) and 1 TD less per year.
We gain 158 season yardage and lose a TD.

1,983
- 158 (I’m giving you the Pittman + adjustment)
______
______
1825

We’re also allowing you a +158 yards bonus difference in ability adjustment to because I’m feeling fair! :) So Pittman gets 950 yards (792 career avg + 158 per season adjust over Sammy average) adjusted and thus 1033.5 yards left over ti be accounted for.

Also 14 TD lost f/2021 season
+ Sammy picked up about 1 TD more Using Pittman though we lose 1 TD


Where are the other LOST
15 TD’s and 1,033 yards coming from? ?

Heaven help me if you say TE’s :cry:


And who is our backup QB again?? We need to list him here to be fair because Jordan never happened.

Uhmmm, at what point did I claim we'd replace Adams yard for yard and TD for TD? I just said the receiver room would be in much better shape with Tee Higgins or Pittman Jr as our leading receiver than Lazard coming back as the leading receiver (in either scenario I'm not sure why Watkins couldn't be on the team as well). This is a really weird discussion. Are people really claiming that the current team wouldn't be better with Higgins or Pittman Jr on it?
 
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Adams is responsible for him leaving but there's no reason to blame him for a lack of talent on the depth chart behind him.
Yes he’s absolutely partly to blame. They offered him near $30m. He bailed out for less money and knowing good and well that it would put us in a predicament. If there’s a thing called “blame pie” He’s a big piece of it. If you can’t count in your #1 player at any position, that you drafted btw, to play for more $$? in-turn any team would be caught in a major predicament. Let’s pull Hopkins or Kupp or whomever and then have another top option want to be overpaid (MVS) some. It is what it is and you play the hand your dealt. I'm actually excited to see how these changes pan out this season and next though, it's odd I shouldn't be excited but I am
He had 1,082 receiving yards last season and is still improving entering his third season.
You don’t know that for fact. That’s called projecting. If we do that we can also project with other players.
I didn’t use your “projection” scenario there but rather I used factual information and proven results. I'll leave the projecting (guessing) to you
In addition is there any reason you ignored Higgins being mentioned as well. He had over 1,000 receiving yards last year as well.
Yes. There’s a fantastic reason. We couldn’t draft both WR at the same time in 2020. Not sure if you thought that part through very well. ;)

You answered part of the question but never answered who our #2 QB would’ve been today? For if we drafted a WR, who’s our backup successor in case #12 pulls a Davante and vanishes? You were adamant about a WR contingency.. what about QB? kinda important position no?
 
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Uhmmm, at what point did I claim we'd replace Adams yard for yard and TD for TD? I just said the receiver room would be in much better shape with Tee Higgins or Pittman Jr as our leading receiver than Lazard coming back as the leading receiver (in either scenario I'm not sure why Watkins couldn't be on the team as well). This is a really weird discussion. Are people really claiming that the current team wouldn't be better with Higgins or Pittman Jr on it?
The point of the exercise is this.
Let me say, First of all that scenario you brought up is a complete hypothetical. Its as hypothetical as me saying we should’ve drafted TJ Watt after the fact (actually I wanted him pre-draft but it’s immaterial)
It’s also directly against the MO of how we have drafted hits that season and historically. You’re assuming the Packers would’ve drafted your choice of those 2 WR, I’d say there’s a significant probability that you are wrong. My guess is they grab a CB

Yet I gave you allowance to be kind, not to make fun of you or diminish your opinion or anything of that sort. I used a comparison to show you there’s 2 ways to skin a cat. That all. You don’t like it because it doesn’t fit your position. I’m sorry about that but it’s the cards we’re dealt, not the cards we wish we were dealt that we play. We can play what ifs all we want. I gave a comparison of your “what if” against the cards we were dealt “Sammy Watkins” which is totally unfair to me really. I entertained your choice of a reasonable hypothetical to show that we’re really not as far away as you think. To comfort you if you will…So lose the defensive attitude!

Ok. If it did roll out again I’d take Higgins, I think he was on my radar.

btw. Nobody has answered yet. What was our backup plan at QB??
Who is Rodgers successor in your hypothetical draft redo if we went WR?

PS. @DoURant @tynimiller @Pkrjones would get more credibility in this argument. They actually picked Tee Higgins. The vast majority in here formally chose neither WR, as a sidenote. @DoURant especially, as he picked BOTH Wideouts you mentioned in our AmishDraft! You didn’t pick any if I recall??
He nearly Won a choice of Tropical vacation with Erin Andrews (goes good with Sunshine) or a 2 week trip to Wuhan China! You got 4 years of Jordan Love!!
 
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Sunshinepacker

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The point of the exercise is this.
Let me say, First of all that scenario you brought up is a complete hypothetical. Its as hypothetical as me saying we should’ve drafted TJ Watt after the fact (actually I wanted him pre-draft but it’s immaterial)
It’s also directly against the MO of how we have drafted hits that season and historically. You’re assuming the Packers would’ve drafted your choice of those 2 WR, I’d say there’s a significant probability that you are wrong. My guess is they grab a CB

Yet I gave you allowance to be kind, not to make fun of you or diminish your opinion or anything of that sort. I used a comparison to show you there’s 2 ways to skin a cat. That all. You don’t like it because it doesn’t fit your position. I’m sorry about that but it’s the cards we’re dealt, not the cards we wish we were dealt that we play. We can play what ifs all we want. I gave a comparison of your “what if” against the cards we were dealt “Sammy Watkins” which is totally unfair to me really. I entertained your choice of a reasonable hypothetical to show that we’re really not as far away as you think. To comfort you if you will…So lose the defensive attitude!

Ok. If it did roll out again I’d take Higgins, I think he was on my radar.

btw. Nobody has answered yet. What was our backup plan at QB??
Who is Rodgers successor in your hypothetical draft redo if we went WR?

PS. @DoURant @tynimiller @Pkrjones would get more credibility in this argument. They actually picked Tee Higgins. The vast majority in here formally chose neither WR, as a sidenote. @DoURant especially, as he picked BOTH Wideouts you mentioned in our AmishDraft! You didn’t pick any if I recall??
He nearly Won a choice of Tropical vacation with Erin Andrews (goes good with Sunshine) or a 2 week trip to Wuhan China! You got 4 years of Jordan Love!!

Nobody is answering your backup QB question because the answer is simple; having a good #1 receiver is more important than the backup QB when the starting QB is a top-3 QB. If Rodgers gets hurt the Packers aren’t contending for a Super Bowl so I’d rather maximize the primary starters before worrying about guys that won’t see the field unless the packers are blowing someone out.
 

gopkrs

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Nobody is answering your backup QB question because the answer is simple; having a good #1 receiver is more important than the backup QB when the starting QB is a top-3 QB. If Rodgers gets hurt the Packers aren’t contending for a Super Bowl so I’d rather maximize the primary starters before worrying about guys that won’t see the field unless the packers are blowing someone out.
I just disagree that there is no way in hell a team can win w/o their star QB. It's happened in the past and it will happen again. Zeke Bratkowski kept The Packers in the race for one of their championships. But of course, if you don't want to pay and are content with a real bad backup; obviously you won't win.
 

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I just disagree that there is no way in hell a team can win w/o their star QB. It's happened in the past and it will happen again. Zeke Bratkowski kept The Packers in the race for one of their championships. But of course, if you don't want to pay and are content with a real bad backup; obviously you won't win.
Backup QB's are only backups until they're needed...just ask Nick Foles or any of these other guys. Team's CAN win without their star, who may only be a placeholder for the next star. ;) . https://www.sportscasting.com/the-t...ter-an-injury-to-their-teams-regular-starter/
 

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Similar. That does not indicate as good, just that they have similar talent. I took that to mean that they handle the ball the same, and read the field the same. It does not necessarily say that Carr is just as good a QB as Rodgers. It's a diplomatic way of saying that he likes the way Carr plays the game.

So, after seeing all the disagreement on what the comment meant, I went back to the first part of this thread, and read about how back in Adams early days, a lot of people wanted to see him gone. He was, in their terms, lazy, didn't run routes, and essentially should have been cut.

I guess I'm not going to help heat the tar so Adams can be tarred and feathered. I'm going to take his statement for what it was. A diplomatic way of not being caught in the middle of a storm. Yet, here we are, the storm being created anyway.
 

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It'll be interesting to see what Adams does with Oakland (oops, Las Vegas). I'm betting not all that well. Rodgers - the GOAT - was responsible for a LARGE amount of Adams' success, and whatever smoke he may blow about Carr being fairly similar, he ain't.

I said when we drafted Christian Watson that I expect a helluva lot more TDs, yardage, success all ways from Watson in Green Bay than Adams has in LV.
 

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I think Adams will do just fine with the Raiders. He's good. He has good hands, he knows the NFL and defenses, great body control, and the best first 3 steps in the league. He doesn't break a ton of tackles and he doesn't burn away from people, but he's going to get his catches and make plays. Not sure he'll have 100+ receptions, but I think he'll still do well overall considering more passing options in LV including a good TE and only 1 ball to go around.
 

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I have been impressed with Carr when I watched him. I did not expect him to throw as well as he does. I'm sure Adams will get catches. Especially because of those first 3 steps.
 

ARPackFan

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Yes he’s absolutely partly to blame. They offered him near $30m. He bailed out for less money and knowing good and well that it would put us in a predicament. If there’s a thing called “blame pie” He’s a big piece of it. If you can’t count in your #1 player at any position, that you drafted btw, to play for more $$? in-turn any team would be caught in a major predicament.
The Packers front office is 100% to blame.

The Packers have failed to properly draft, develop, and retain sufficient talent at the WR position. The Packers drafted 3 WRs in 2018 knowing full well if they worked out they could all be free agents in 2022. They then failed to take a WR in either 2019, 2020. In 2021 they spent a 3rd round pick on a WR that so far has failed to impress. In 2022 they once again spent 3 picks on WRs and in 2026 they could all be free agents and repeat the mistake all over again. How is Davante accountable in any respect for the failures of the front office to keep the WR position well stocked with a healthy mix of WRs at various points in there contracts? Instead, the Packers chose to overdraft WRs in 2018 and made up for it by under-drafting in the next two years. How is Davante to blame if the Packers failed to renegotiate a contract with him prior to the 2021 season when it should have been done? If Davante chose to take less money with the Raiders then that is his choice and before any of us say he Packers offer was more money I would like to see the terms of that offer. I have heard rumors that the guarantees in the Raiders' offer was better. Players leave teams every year due to injury, retirement or just leaving to go to another team - blaming the player for management's incompetence just isn't fair.
 

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In 2022 they once again spent 3 picks on WRs and in 2026 they could all be free agents and repeat the mistake all over again.
My take is that this year they drafted WRs higher and with a far better chance of contributing a lot more over the first 3 years. And when the contracts are up; The Packers have the best opportunity of re-signing who they want. Also, if a lot of posters are right and Amari all of a sudden looks like a real player; then drafting him one year before the other receivers might look like the right thing to have done.
 

Sunshinepacker

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I just disagree that there is no way in hell a team can win w/o their star QB. It's happened in the past and it will happen again. Zeke Bratkowski kept The Packers in the race for one of their championships. But of course, if you don't want to pay and are content with a real bad backup; obviously you won't win.

Sure, you go with that. I'm sure two or three teams have done it in the modern NFL. I'll go with the strategy that's worked for 20+ teams. I generally don't like to count on the outlier.
 
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Nobody is answering your backup QB question because the answer is simple; having a good #1 receiver is more important than the backup QB when the starting QB is a top-3 QB. If Rodgers gets hurt the Packers aren’t contending for a Super Bowl so I’d rather maximize the primary starters before worrying about guys that won’t see the field unless the packers are blowing someone out.
That’s a terrible example. So if you’re a GM/HC you don’t have any strategy. It’s a cop out. Every team has a strategy and prepares at QB when their QB hits late 30’s. It’s part of team building.

Btw. Who’s our successor if Rodgers retires again??? Oh!! Just give up!
You’d sabotage your entire team over 1 player with that approach.

You’d been better off saying Huntley. Which is what I’d thought you guys would say.
 
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The Packers front office is 100% to blame.

The Packers have failed to properly draft, develop, and retain sufficient talent at the WR position. The Packers drafted 3 WRs in 2018 knowing full well if they worked out they could all be free agents in 2022. They then failed to take a WR in either 2019, 2020. In 2021 they spent a 3rd round pick on a WR that so far has failed to impress. In 2022 they once again spent 3 picks on WRs and in 2026 they could all be free agents and repeat the mistake all over again. How is Davante accountable in any respect for the failures of the front office to keep the WR position well stocked with a healthy mix of WRs at various points in there contracts? Instead, the Packers chose to overdraft WRs in 2018 and made up for it by under-drafting in the next two years. How is Davante to blame if the Packers failed to renegotiate a contract with him prior to the 2021 season when it should have been done? If Davante chose to take less money with the Raiders then that is his choice and before any of us say he Packers offer was more money I would like to see the terms of that offer. I have heard rumors that the guarantees in the Raiders' offer was better. Players leave teams every year due to injury, retirement or just leaving to go to another team - blaming the player for management's incompetence just isn't fair.
I didn’t solely blame Adams. I said he was partly to blame in that pie. There was some blame on current and past FO and I’ve actually had full arguments in agreement with that in the past. In your zeal to protect yourself and opinion, you act like I don’t know that there were other factors.

@ARPackFan. Here’s what it all comes back to. Even if Jordan Love ends up not working out. It’s 1 strategic move that we made an error on (just agreeing with you for a sec). Even if I agreed with you it would disregard the bigger picture. The hundreds of other moves our FO has done to put us in a position to be successful. Including retaining Rodgers and too many to list.

As fans, we’ve got to somehow see the big picture. Not every single move a GM makes works out. It’s the culmination of ALL the moves that create a Winning team.

Btw. I appreciate you trying to defend Adams legacy. He is a tremendous athlete and seems like a good family man. A little cocky, but many of these players haven’t been humbled just yet. Heck I wasn’t humbled until I was 43 years old.. so he’s got time ;)

Anyway. Adams is GONE. Adams DID NOT want to be in Green Bay and he said so himself. He is doing nothing to help our team anymore. You could even say he is our enemy and he’s in our way. That was his choice, NOT by choice of our FO. They wanted to overpay him to keep Rodgers happy.

It’s time to quit petting Adams. He’s our foe and 100% by his choice. He bailed out. He put us to pasture at the worst possible time. He’s the date that left you at the Reststop with no ride. Ok. Our FO should’ve had a cell phone to call for help but make no mistake they got out in a weird position that I don’t think they expected. I didn’t expect him to leave did you??
 
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Sunshinepacker

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That’s a terrible example. So if you’re a GM/HC you don’t have any strategy. It’s a cop out. Every team has a strategy and prepares at QB when their QB hits late 30’s. It’s part of team building.

Btw. Who’s our successor if Rodgers retires again??? Oh!! Just give up!
You’d sabotage your entire team over 1 player with that approach.

You’d been better off saying Huntley. Which is what I’d thought you guys would say.

I should care about 2-3 years from now more than i should care about now? The NFL is a sport that sees change come about real quick. Having a replacement qb isn’t as important as having a starting caliber receiver; this is the weirdest discussion. It’s like you’re arguing that the 4th string CB is just as important as your starting OLB. One guy might not see the field while the other is on the field all the dang time.
 
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I should care about 2-3 years from now more than i should care about now? The NFL is a sport that sees change come about real quick. Having a replacement qb isn’t as important as having a starting caliber receiver; this is the weirdest discussion. It’s like you’re arguing that the 4th string CB is just as important as your starting OLB. One guy might not see the field while the other is on the field all the dang time.
Teams don’t draft QBs with your assumption of them being starters year 1 or never starting. It’s no different than financial investments.

You come across with some attitude like you know it all. So I’ll tell you what I 100% know. Your roster building philosophy would have lost us not 1.. but 2 HOF QB’s. Neither started year 1 and neither were highly successful for many years. Rodgers didn’t post a winning season until his second contract and he’s as good as it gets. Maybe the best ever.
So forgive me if I think that thinking is crazy. You stick to being a fan. Let out GM roster build. Please! :laugh:
 
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captainWIMM

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Yes he’s absolutely partly to blame. They offered him near $30m. He bailed out for less money and knowing good and well that it would put us in a predicament.

It's not Adams' responsibility to care about the situation him leaving Green Bay puts the Packers in. That's solely the job of the team's front office and they failed to assemble enough talent at wide receiver.

I didn’t use your “projection” scenario there but rather I used factual information and proven results. I'll leave the projecting (guessing) to you

If you would only stick to that when talking about Love as well.

Yes. There’s a fantastic reason. We couldn’t draft both WR at the same time in 2020. Not sure if you thought that part through very well. ;)

The Packers could have drafted either of Higgins or Pittman and I would have been way smarter to waste the pick on Love.

It’s also directly against the MO of how we have drafted hits that season and historically. You’re assuming the Packers would’ve drafted your choice of those 2 WR, I’d say there’s a significant probability that you are wrong. My guess is they grab a CB

As mentioned repeatedly, anyone selected until the end of the second round aside of Isaiah Wilson would have had a bigger impact than Love has had.

I just disagree that there is no way in hell a team can win w/o their star QB. It's happened in the past and it will happen again. Zeke Bratkowski kept The Packers in the race for one of their championships. But of course, if you don't want to pay and are content with a real bad backup; obviously you won't win.

I don't consider Bratkowski, who was 4-4-1 as a starter in Green Bay, is a valid example for a winning backup quarterback.

That’s a terrible example. So if you’re a GM/HC you don’t have any strategy. It’s a cop out. Every team has a strategy and prepares at QB when their QB hits late 30’s. It’s part of team building.

Stop acting as if the Packers wouldn't have signed or drafted a backup quarterback if they hadn't selected Love.

Even if Jordan Love ends up not working out. It’s 1 strategic move that we made an error on (just agreeing with you for a sec). Even if I agreed with you it would disregard the bigger picture. The hundreds of other moves our FO has done to put us in a position to be successful. Including retaining Rodgers and too many to list.

As fans, we’ve got to somehow see the big picture. Not every single move a GM makes works out. It’s the culmination of ALL the moves that create a Winning team.

Overall, Gutekunst has an excellent job as the Packers general manager. It's possible he will mostly be remember how trading up for Love worked out, especially if the team doesn't win another Super Bowl with Rodgers as their starter.

Your roster building philosophy would have lost us not 1.. but 2 HOF QB’s. Neither started year 1 and neither were highly successful for many years. Rodgers didn’t post a winning season until his second contract and he’s as good as it gets. Maybe the best ever.

Once again, you completely ignore the situation to develop quarterbacks was entirely different before the CBA in 2011 was signed.
 

gopkrs

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I don't consider Bratkowski, who was 4-4-1 as a starter in Green Bay, is a valid example for a winning backup quarterback.
A good reason to have a decent backup QB is to keep your team in the playoff hunt while your QB heals. You can't afford to pay two starting QBs.
 

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