Dantzler a possible impact player?

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Deleted member 6794

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I think you better double check that query.

Ted Thompson has been GM for 10 years.

77,709 / 10 = 7,771 snaps per year.

That's the equivalent of, on average, 7 players per year taking every snap on one side of the ball or the other. Even considering special teams snaps that's way too high a number by a few factors.

I took that number from an article by Weston Hodkiewicz without even thinking about it. You're right, that number seems way too high. For example, last season UDFA combined to play 3,282 snaps on offense and defense. Hodkiewicz quoted a study by the Packers coming up with the number, maybe with their new emphasis on it they included special teams snaps.

Seriously, I would not rule out Dantzler making the 53 man roster. There are certainly some spots open at the linebacker positions, but he'll have to prove his worth on special teams.

I think we can assume the following will make the roster:

Matthews
Peppers
Perry
Neal
Barrington
Ryan

That leaves perhaps 3 or 4 open spots for:

Bradford
Elliott
Francis
Hubbard
Mulumba
Palmer
Rasco
Thomas
Vaughters

I believe only 3 of those contenders have taken an NFL snap (Mulumba, Palmer and and Elliot), none of whom have distinguished themselves.

Last year the Packers kept a total of 11 linebackers on the 53 man roster. With Matthews most likely continuing to play inside I guess the coaching staff will take a similar approach and keep six more OLBs and another four inside backers. There will be some interesting battles in camp at both positions.

If there were a position on our roster where an undrafted FA could make the team and start, its ILB.

The Packers will find a way to keep an impressive UDFA on the roster regardless of position. It seems though that ILB is the most likely for one of them to succeed.
 

JBlood

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TT has kept 19 undrafted free agents on opening day rosters in the last 10 years; so it's likely 1 or 2 will again make the roster this year. I would think Dantzler and Vaughters will be looked at very closely as ILB's and special teamers--both areas of need.
 
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TT has kept 19 undrafted free agents on opening day rosters in the last 10 years....
That number seems a little low. Could that be UDFAs whose first contract was with the Packers?

Quite a few of the current crop made at least one stop before coming to the Packers. Oddly, a handful of these guys made a stop in Jacksonville before landing in Green Bay.

There were twenty-one UDFAs who were on the Packers 53 man roster at one time or another last season:

Boykin
Tolzien
Bush
Harris
Richardson
Kuhn
Banjo
Shields
Williams
Mulumba
Lattimore
Goode
Pennel
L. Taylor
Gerhardt
Gaston
Masthay
Perillo
Bostick
Elliott
Robinson
 
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D

Deleted member 6794

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TT has kept 19 undrafted free agents on opening day rosters in the last 10 years; so it's likely 1 or 2 will again make the roster this year. I would think Dantzler and Vaughters will be looked at very closely as ILB's and special teamers--both areas of need.

As HRE already pointed out that number is for sure too low. Last year's opening day roster included a total of 16 undrafted free agents.

I think that Vaughters could surprise a lot of people and make the roster. I'm pretty high on Rotheram as well.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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I took that number from an article by Weston Hodkiewicz without even thinking about it. You're right, that number seems way too high. For example, last season UDFA combined to play 3,282 snaps on offense and defense. Hodkiewicz quoted a study by the Packers coming up with the number, maybe with their new emphasis on it they included special teams snaps.
Out of curiosity, I ran the 2014 UDFA snap counts using Football Outsiders data for 2014:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

I come up with 3,195 snaps on offense and defense...that's pretty close to Hodkiewicz's' numbers. I'd expect some variation from different sources; in this case the difference is not significant. If Hodkeiwicz's numbers came from Packer staff, I'd go with those numbers. Shields and Williams account for the lions share as one would expect.

The count jumps to 5,021 snaps when special teams are included.

I think its clear the 10 year average of 7,771 per year average over 10 years for offense + defense is way too high. I think it's probably too high even when throwing in ST snaps. 19 UDFA players took a snap of one sort or another in 2014 (Tolzien and Gaston drew a goose egg)...that's got to be at the high end of the range for the last 10 years.

UDFA Offense (663 snaps):

225 - Boykin
0 - Tolzien
51 - Harris
192 - Kuhn
26 - Gerhardt
126 - L. Taylor
11 - Perillo
32 - Bostick

UDFA Defense (2,532 snaps):


41 - Bush
119 - Richardson
0 - Banjo
820 - Shields
1012 - Williams
0 - Mulumba
281 - Lattimore
171- Pennel
0 - Gaston
53 - Elliott
65 - Robinson

Special Teams (1826 snaps):

160 - Boykin
318 - Bush
134 - Harris
321 - Richardson
101 - Kuhn
49 - Banjo
67 - Shields
4 - Williams
28 - Mulumba
135 - Lattimore
81 - Pennel
144 - Goode
119 - L. Taylor
19 - Gerhardt
146 - Masthay
16 - Perillo
207 - Bostick
210 - Elliott
4 - Robinson
 
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D

Deleted member 6794

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Out of curiosity, I ran the 2014 UDFA snap counts using Football Outsiders data for 2014:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

I come up with 3,195 snaps on offense and defense...that's pretty close to Hodkiewicz's' numbers. I'd expect some variation from different sources; in this case the difference is not significant. If Hodkeiwicz's numbers came from Packer staff, I'd go with those numbers. Shields and Williams account for the lions share as one would expect.

The count jumps to 5,021 snaps when special teams are included.

I think its clear the 10 year average of 7,771 per year average over 10 years for offense + defense is way too high. I think it's probably too high even when throwing in ST snaps. 19 UDFA players took a snap of one sort or another (Tolzien and Gaston drew a goose egg)...that's got to be at the high end of the range for the last 10 years.

UDFA Offense (663 snaps):

225 - Boykin
0 - Tolzien
51 - Harris
192 - Kuhn
26 - Gerhardt
126 - L. Taylor
11 - Perillo
32 - Bostick

UDFA Defense (2,532 snaps):


41 - Bush
119 - Richardson
0 - Banjo
820 - Shields
1012 - Williams
0 - Mulumba
281 - Lattimore
171- Pennel
0 - Gaston
53 - Elliott
65 - Robinson

Special Teams (1826 snaps):

160 - Boykin
318 - Bush
134 - Harris
321 - Richardson
101 - Kuhn
49 - Banjo
67 - Shields
4 - Williams
28 - Mulumba
135 - Lattimore
81 - Pennel
144 - Goode
119 - L. Taylor
19 - Gerhardt
146 - Masthay
16 - Perillo
207 - Bostick
210 - Elliott
4 - Robinson

I used PFF's numbers to come up with the number of snaps played by undrafted free agents last year. They don't have any information about special teams snaps though.

There are some minor differencies with FO but it seems the number Hodkiewicz came up in his article is way too high for Thompson's tenure.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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As HRE already pointed out that number is for sure too low. Last year's opening day roster included a total of 16 undrafted free agents.

I think that Vaughters could surprise a lot of people and make the roster. I'm pretty high on Rotheram as well.
There's a lot of churn at the bottom of the roster among the UDFAs, as one might expect.

Of the 21 who were on the roster at one time or another last season, 8 are already gone before even getting to training camp:

Boykin, Bush, Harris, Williams, Lattimore, Gaston, Bostick and Robinson, with only Williams being a non-injury-replacement starter during his career.

I would regard only Tolzien, Richardson, Kuhn, Shields, Goode and Masthy as relatively safe; the rest are on the bubble.

Thompson's approach is pretty clear. He fills out the bottom of the roster and special teams with cheap UDFAs rather than bring in vet minimum guys. If the player does not display at least the potential to be a steady rotational player, first line backup or core special teams player in the first year, and certainly by the time the 3 year UDFA contract is up, the guy is rotated out for a fresh face. Not unlike accumulating day 3 draft picks, it's a numbers game.

Once every few years a starter emerges. The odds of any one UDFA player achieving that status is quite low.
 
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D

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Of the 21 who were on the roster at one time or another last season, 8 are already gone before even getting to training camp:

Boykin, Bush, Harris, Williams, Lattimore, Gaston, Bostick and Robinson, with only Williams being a non-injury replacement starter during his career.

I would regard only Tolzien, Richardson, Kuhn, Shields, Goode and Masthy as relatively safe; the rest are on the bubble.

I agree with nearly all of what you said above. Bruce Gaston is still on the team though and I think it's possible Masthay and maybe even Kuhn won't make the roster this time.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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I agree with nearly all of what you said above. Bruce Gaston is still on the team though and I think it's possible Masthay and maybe even Kuhn won't make the roster this time.
Yeah, I jumped the gun on Gaston. He's clearly a bubble guy.

I regard Masthay as "relatively safe" in that it's his job to lose. While there is a another punter in camp this year (Mandell), I would read that move as lighting a fire under Masthay's butt, just as the Packers brought in Tavecchio and then Ramirez in 2013 after Crosby's abysmal 2012 season.

That said, if Masthay continues along the path of the latter half of last season, his job could be on the line. Mandell's average progressed over his college career reaching 47.1 as a senior.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/cody-mandell-1.html

Caution is warranted...there's a lot of warm weather kicking in that number, and it says nothing about hang time or downs inside the 20.

In Masthay's defense, if a kicker is not confident in the line play, which would have been justified last season, he's inclined to kick quicker and higher, throwing off his timing and distance. More than who's punting, the kick blocking needs improvement.

I think Kuhn is solidly safe. Rodgers likes having him around as a guy who, according to Rodgers, knows the offense as well as anybody else on the roster. I don't see Kuhn/Ripkowski as an either/or. 5 guys in the FB/H-back/TE group is not out of line, and if Ripkowski can in-line and kick block better than the incumbent TEs, which is a low bar to hurdle, he would provide H-back versatility which is a different position.

In a 5 man group, I see Perillo as much further out on the bubble than Kuhn.
 
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Luca

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I think you better double check that query.

Ted Thompson has been GM for 10 years.

77,709 / 10 = 7,771 snaps per year.

That's the equivalent of, on average, 7 players per year taking every snap on one side of the ball or the other. Even considering special teams snaps that's way too high a number by a few factors.

This year:
Offense: 745 snaps
Defense: 2869 snaps
Special Teams: at LEAST 2189 snaps (this includes only players with more than 100 snaps)

So, that is at least 5803 snaps
I would estimate that the actual number is approximately 6300

2013:
Offense: 3678 snaps
Defense: 4028 snaps

So with the special teams snaps, the number of snaps in 2013 is probably well above the 10.000 snaps (a safe estimate would be +/- 10.400, the actual number is probably even higher)

So I think that Ted Thompson is right with his number!
 
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HardRightEdge

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This year:
Offense: 745 snaps
Defense: 2869 snaps
Special Teams: at LEAST 2189 snaps (this includes only players with more than 100 snaps)

So, that is at least 5803 snaps
I would estimate that the actual number is approximately 6300

2013:
Offense: 3678 snaps
Defense: 4028 snaps

So with the special teams snaps, the number of snaps in 2013 is probably well above the 10.000 snaps (a safe estimate would be +/- 10.400, the actual number is probably even higher)

So I think that Ted Thompson is right with his number!
What are your sources?

Your 7,800 offensive/defensive snaps in 2013 is equivalent to 7 players taking every snap. I'd have to see a breakdown on that to believe it.

As an FYI, the Packers had 485 special team team snaps in 2013 x 11 = 5,335 special team snaps allocatable to individual players. You estimated +/- 2,694 UDFA special team snaps in 2013, or 50% of the total. That looks quite high.
 
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Luca

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What are your sources?

Your 7,800 offensive/defensive snaps in 2013 is equivalent to 7 players taking every snap. I'd have to see a breakdown on that to believe it.

The source is ProFootballFocus:

Guys with more than 100 snaps:
OL Evan Dietrich-Smith 1137
OL Don Barclay 1043
WR Jarrett Boykin 701
FB John Kuhn 337
QB Scott Tolzien 160
TE Brandon Bostick 144
WR Myles White 125

DB Tramon Williams 1124
DB Sam Shields 902
DB M.D. Jennings 855
LB Andy Mulumba 361
LB Jamari Lattimore 272
DB Chris Banjo 192
DB Sean Richardson 174
DB Jarrett Bush 129

Note: These numbers include playoffs snaps. Thats the difference between PFF and Football Outsiders.
 
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H

HardRightEdge

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The source is ProFootballFocus:

Guys with more than 100 snaps:
OL Evan Dietrich-Smith 1137
OL Don Barclay 1043
WR Jarrett Boykin 701
FB John Kuhn 337
QB Scott Tolzien 160
TE Brandon Bostick 144
WR Myles White 125

DB Tramon Williams 1124
DB Sam Shields 902
DB M.D. Jennings 855
LB Andy Mulumba 361
LB Jamari Lattimore 272
DB Chris Banjo 192
DB Sean Richardson 174
DB Jarrett Bush 129

Note: These numbers include playoffs snaps. Thats the difference between PFF and Football Outsiders.
Playoff numbers? That's cheating!

In fairness, those guys would have topped 7,000 in the regular season, and perhaps the alleged 7,700 ten year average when adding in the guys with fewer than 100 snaps, since the Packers were one-and-done in the playoffs.

I would suspect this was the high water mark under Thompson's tenure with 6 guys who were full-time or nearly full-time players.

While the numbers are stronger than I expected in my original take on the matter, the 7,700 per year average is not credible. I would expect last year's number to be closer to the norm.

Two years later, I would expect 5 of those players to be strong candidates for the 53 man roster, with only Shields a starter. The rest are gone or on the bubble.
 
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JBlood

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There were twenty-one UDFAs who were on the Packers 53 man roster at one time or another last season:
My number of 19 comes from the Packers' web site (http://www.packers.com/team/staff/ted-thompson/7d1caee3-e8f2-4e20-b304-98064f608dbb) , which only refers to FAs on the opening day rosters for the 10 years of TT teams:

"In addition to building through the draft, Thompson has developed his roster through the signing of undrafted free agents. Since 2005, 19 rookie free agents have made the opening-day roster under Thompson. More impressively, 13 non-drafted rookies have made the opening-day roster in the past four seasons (2010-13), tying the Packers for third most in the NFL over that span."
 
H

HardRightEdge

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My number of 19 comes from the Packers' web site (http://www.packers.com/team/staff/ted-thompson/7d1caee3-e8f2-4e20-b304-98064f608dbb) , which only refers to FAs on the opening day rosters for the 10 years of TT teams:

"In addition to building through the draft, Thompson has developed his roster through the signing of undrafted free agents. Since 2005, 19 rookie free agents have made the opening-day roster under Thompson. More impressively, 13 non-drafted rookies have made the opening-day roster in the past four seasons (2010-13), tying the Packers for third most in the NFL over that span."
I wouldn't question that if I'm understanding it correctly.

The operative terms, in bold, might be "19 rookie free agents have made the opening-day roster". In other words, if a UDFA does not make the opening day roster in his rookie year, but does make the opening day roster in year 2 or 3 or 4, I would presume he's not included in that number.
 

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No matter how the stats are calculated, we can all agree the Packers are known for giving UDFAs as good a shot – or better - of making their team as any in the league, can’t we? It has been mentioned by UDFAs as one of the reasons they sign with the Packers. Of course the chances of UDFAs making the team and significantly contributing are slim but why not do it? Particularly for a draft and develop team.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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No matter how the stats are calculated, we can all agree the Packers are known for giving UDFAs as good a shot – or better - of making their team as any in the league, can’t we? It has been mentioned by UDFAs as one of the reasons they sign with the Packers. Of course the chances of UDFAs making the team and significantly contributing are slim but why not do it? Particularly for a draft and develop team.
For the 90 man roster, certainly, why not? How else should a team accumulate that number of bodies? Maybe second year PS players or low draft choices from other teams who couldn't stick with their teams, or guys who were not on a roster last year or in the Arena league? The Packers did bring some of those guys too.

When it comes to the regular season roster, we end up at the same old argument. The Packers will be presumably entering the season with starting ILBs and their backups with a grand total of 1/2 season of NFL experience, and cover corners with something less at the position. While the starters at those positions will likely be draftees, not UDFAs, the alternative (signing a couple of free agents, the Packer's own or outsiders, as starters or rotational players) would increase the odds that a couple of UDFA's would roll off the bottom of the roster.

The "why nots" when we consider the 53 man roster are a few:

Filling out the bottom of the roster with a couple of UDFAs is cost effective and a calculated risk. Every week 8 players sit inactive. Paying a guy a million or two to not play has it's issues.

Boykin is a good case in point. He was a cheap UDFA player who proved serviceable as the #4 injury replacement. He'd topped out and was not going any further. So when it came time to pay him a $2+ mil restricted FA contract, the cost/benefit looked less favorable. Drafting a WR in the 3rd. round which pays close to the rookie minimum is a calculated risk that he (or one of the minimum pay incumbents) will yield serviceable performance, if required, at a lower cost.

Another team in a similar situation might have 1) paid the $2 million to a player similar to Boykin, maybe a free agent, as the #4 WR, 2) used the 3rd. rounder on an ILB, and 3) re-signed House to play cover corner, thereby leaning toward experience and pushing the the cap closer to the limit. At the same time, those particular moves might squeeze one or two UDFAs (rookie or otherwise) off the roster.

A second "why not" is the fact that the players choose you, you didn't choose them in the draft, while the pay difference between competing offers might be a matter of a couple thousand dollars in signing bonus. They want to play for you. That can go a long way in getting on the development track, and enough to differentiate them from a 6th. or 7th. round pick.

Personally, given the Packers current situation, I don't have much of a problem with this approach. Signs point to 2016 as the year providing the OLB position doesn't turn into another FS or ILB Achilles heel as in past seasons. Nearly the entire offense is signed through 2016; the key rookies at key positions this season (we know there will likely be a few) will have a year under their belts. Then, after 2016, there will be quite a few starters turning free agents, which argues for cap conservation in the year-to-year rollover process.

If all goes swimmingly, perhaps 2015 will be the year, if the rookies prove up. By the time the playoffs roll around, the rookies will be half way to veteran status. I expect early season bumps.
 

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Playoff numbers? That's cheating!

In fairness, those guys would have topped 7,000 in the regular season, and perhaps the alleged 7,700 ten year average when adding in the guys with fewer than 100 snaps, since the Packers were one-and-done in the playoffs.

I would suspect this was the high water mark under Thompson's tenure with 6 guys who were full-time or nearly full-time players.

While the numbers are stronger than I expected in my original take on the matter, the 7,700 per year average is not credible. I would expect last year's number to be closer to the norm.

Two years later, I would expect 5 of those players to be strong candidates for the 53 man roster, with only Shields a starter. The rest are gone or on the bubble.
There is no point in not including playoff snaps. It's what we do every year.
 
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Here's the comparison between Matthews and Dantzler from the jsonline article linked above: Clay was/is heavier though.

Dantzler's coach says him becoming a father motivated him and: He likes to hit and has good size but in addition to the huge step up in talent he'll be facing he will have to switch from SSLB in a 4-3 to ILB. Of course I wish him the best of luck - I don't who emerges at ILB, just so someone does.

BTW, read the jsonline article to see who called him after he signed with the Packers.
I like this kids demeanor. He has the air of a softy out of uniform, but something clicks in his brain come game time. You can see by his body language when he finishes a tackle( which he does very well) he brings a ferocity to the table that we need more of. Dantzler also has an uncanny ability to shed blocks while seeing through them with incredible upper body quickness and strength. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him in a Packer jersey someday . Maybe via practice squad initially etc.. As you said the question is can he adapt moving up a notch and a half? As we know, Often easier said than done
 

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