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Brad Jones to Get Expanded Role?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bagadeez04, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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    I think this article from JSOnline kind of sums up where the Packers could be come training camp.

    If "tag and trade" doesn't happen, which it seems it won't, and the draft falls in such a way where it makes a lot more sense to draft at another position like CB or safety in the first couple rounds, we might be looking more or less at the same cast of characters at DE and OLB.

    I'm hoping there's a better option than Jones to start opposite CM3...I was pretty surprised to see this about Jones as I had thought his days in GB were numbered.
     
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  2. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    A scenario that gives us Jones and Neal as our only options just makes me sick.:sick:
     
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  3. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    Its great to know that Ted and company can sleep well knowing they upheld the integrity of the franchise tag while other teams continue to get better and the Packers stay the same.

    I want to see the corner from Montana and Irvin from WVU. This team needs to get better on defense. It can not stay the same.
     
  4. SEWICHEESE

    SEWICHEESE Cheesehead

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    How can u criticize Ted Thompson? We won a SB and were 15-1 last year... end of debate!!!

    But seriously... If he cant find a decent replacement at ROLB in the draft (although it shouldnt be to hard) then he better do it in FA. There is gonna be a ton of cuts coming up and plenty of reasonably priced FA OLB's and DE's available.
    It would be negligent at best to go into next season without an upgrade at ROLB and at least some QUALITY depth on the D-line. I think or at least hope that this year was a wake up call to TT that the purist draft and develop, plug and play model is too limiting when u need a player NOW. But of course it is the best way to build a good team. He came through big in the 2009 draft, he can do it again. Hes gotta have something up his sleeve.
     
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  5. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I don’t care who emerges as the answer at the OLB spot opposite Matthews as long as someone does. If it’s Brad Jones that’d be great since he’s already on the roster and at a bargain price. And the article mentions he had a sack in each of the last two games – that’s a pretty good pace. But according to McCarthy that’s not the challenge Jones would face as a full time starter:
    So he’s too light to handle the position full time and that’s probably why the headline is he’ll play a bigger role and not that he’ll be starting opposite Matthews. It looks to me like Jones may become a designated pass rusher at any of the three spots Clay isn’t playing. McCarthy says he’ll train as an outside rusher. Perhaps he can substitute for a certain ILB who just got a haircut?

    The story also mentions that Lattimore will get a shot at an expanded role. Lattimore is listed at 6’2” 230 and Jones is now listed at 6’3” 242. If McCarthy and staff have concerns about Jones’ bulk they can’t be thinking of Lattimore starting at OLB. More likely is he’ll compete with Jones as a rusher from more than one LB spot. What was somewhat interesting to me is the one player who flashed playmaking ability in preseason (other than Clay of course) is listed at 6’3” 263 and isn’t mentioned as a candidate to start at OLB. The staff must see a flaw in Vic So’oto’s game that isn’t apparent to us, or at least to me. Yes, he lacks experience but he’s got the body to start at OLB and seemed to have the instincts.

    After the season the defense had it makes sense to give Jones and Lattimore a shot at improving the pass rush. It makes all kinds of sense to me to get So’oto lined up at the spot opposite Clay from the moment he arrives at the first off season meeting. But they can’t count on just the talent they have to improve so they have to add more talent at OLB and I’m confident they will. Whether the talent they add will satisfy the fan base is another question…
     
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  6. SEWICHEESE

    SEWICHEESE Cheesehead

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    The story also mentions that Lattimore will get a shot at an expanded role. Lattimore is listed at 6’2” 230 and Jones is now listed at 6’3” 242. If McCarthy and staff have concerns about Jones’ bulk they can’t be thinking of Lattimore starting at OLB. More likely is he’ll compete with Jones as a rusher from more than one LB spot. What was somewhat interesting to me is the one player who flashed playmaking ability in preseason (other than Clay of course) is listed at 6’3” 263 and isn’t mentioned as a candidate to start at OLB. The staff must see a flaw in Vic So’oto’s game that isn’t apparent to us, or at least to me. Yes, he lacks experience but he’s got the body to start at OLB and seemed to have the instincts.

    After the season the defense had it makes sense to give Jones and Lattimore a shot at improving the pass rush. It makes all kinds of sense to me to get So’oto lined up at the spot opposite Clay from the moment he arrives at the first off season meeting. But they can’t count on just the talent they have to improve so they have to add more talent at OLB and I’m confident they will. Whether the talent they add will satisfy the fan base is another question… [/quote]

    I really dont think anyone currently on the roster is the answer at ROLB. Jones and Lattimore are too small and not dynamic enough to make up for that shortcoming. Zombo and Walden are just "guys". However, perhaps So'oto can become that player we need. He has the size and the pass rush skills. But probably isnt a good a enough athelete and fast enough to cover backs and TE's. But as of now, he isnt anywhere near a finished product and needs time to develop. But do we have time to wait for him?

    I would suggest at least getting a shorter term replacment via FA or, get a good FA DE like, Adam Carriker, who could free up the ROLB so, said ROLB doesnt have to be a dynamic talent and yet still provide good pressure to the QB. We definitely need an upgrade at one or the other postions because they are mutualistically related. I would like an upgrade at both, personally.

    Summing up, I would upgrade one immediately through FA and the other via the draft. I dont think that is too much to ask of TT. Like I have said before, he must have something up his sleeve because how this season ended was a real eye opener on how important a good pass rush is to winning in the playoffs.
     
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  7. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    It will take more than a couple of games of him playing better for me to remotely believe Jones is either the part or full time answer at the OLB position.
     
  8. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Enough mindlessly gulping the TT Kool aid. He's made some great picks but he's also made some really stupid ones. Plus some decisions with players being released that shouldn't have been. I have no interest in seeing the exact same cast on defense. Especially in our front 7.

    There is usually a reason why players go in the later rounds or go undrafted. There are exceptions to the rule. But with our dilapidated pass rush I have no interest in trying our luck with undrafted free agents, late round picks, and guys that can't stay healthy as starters on our defense.

    Really, we need a true 3-4 Defensive End 6'4-6'5' 300+, more than we need a pass rushing LB. I hope we don't put our confidence in these guys that can't stay healthy. Like Neal, Zombo and Jones. We need to draft a DE and or an OLB high in this draft
     
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  9. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Well said.
    I love this team, and TT is the main man to thank for it.

    But think about this for a second: If David Akers foot didn't have a bad game in the 2010 Wildcard game, this team would have now been 0-3 in the playoffs, 3 straight 1 & dones.
    Thank God Akers had that bad game.

    But it goes to show that there's a VERY FINE line between success and failure. Before we went on that magical week 16 - playoff run, Ted and Mike were on a warm seat for sure.

    Thompson ignored the pass rush needs in 2010 (when I wanted Jerry Hughes), when everyone mocked us taking an OLB high, and then he did it even bigger last year. He often times likes to find diamonds in the rough instead of go after the obvious studs.

    Nobody in the world had James Jones or Mike Neal rated within 50 picks of when he took them.
    Justin Harrell too.

    But also Greg Jennings and Nick Collins. So sometimes he's hit it big.
    I'm just tired of the OLB spot being crappy opposite Clay. That can be fixed if he's smart about it.
     
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  10. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Agreed. I think Ted's real specialty is finding hidden gems in the laters rounds and because of his success I think he tries to get cute in the earlier rounds instead of going to with the obvious choices.

    Also because of that level of arrogance he undervalues players by cutting them and replacing him with players that he think will be able to fill the role. Jenkins and Barnett are two that come to mind. Now contemplating letting Wells go even as well as he's been playing and replacing him with a Journeyman Back-up Center from Houston or so I read.

    Ted is fallible as much as he is a genius.
     
  11. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    But he won a Super Bowl.
    That being said, 90% of us would have kept Jenkins last year, and that would have made some, maybe a lot, of difference.
     
  12. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    LOL. People will always comeback with this when anyone questions Teddy. But I think people are too caught up in the fact that we won it all to realize that up until we beat Philadelphia in the WC game, we were walking on egg shells. A lot of things had to go our way and some of it wasn't even within our control.

    Now granted what we did this season was remarkable, but it was hardly just a result of Ted's management of the team. We made a lot of foolish cuts that could have made a difference in the playoffs
     
  13. Poppa San

    Poppa San SB I trophy First of four Staff Member Moderator

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    There is no such thing as a successful obvious choice in the draft. NFL history is littered with can't miss busts. Do you pick AJ Hawk or Vernon Davis? Alex Smith or A-Rod? Easy choices now. Do I blindly believe in every TT decision? NO. Do I think he'll make consistently better decisions than everyone on this board? Yes, his overall choices beat the board consensus. So I am not going to say this player is a must need over that one and then lambast him when he goes a different route that turns out wrong.
     
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  14. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Arrogant? Pure nonsense IMO. Thompson makes mistakes but he has a plan and the discipline to stick to it and he led the team to a title using that system. He favors young players over older players and he believes it’s better to let a player go a year early rather than a year late. Obviously there are exceptions but they only ‘prove the rule’. I’m a little surprised to see the charge of arrogance being reprised. That was pre-title BS that Thompson’s distaste for the limelight and the class he showed after winning the title should have buried.

    If I have a choice between a play-making DE and play-making OLB, I’ll take the OLB every time – it’s a more important position in Capers’ scheme.

    Here’s just a humble suggestion: Let’s not whine about all the positions Thompson hasn’t addressed until he’s at least had a chance to not address them. And one more thing: Another tenant of Thompson’s system is draft and develop. I emphasize develop because that’s the reason the flood of injuries didn’t derail the Packers’ title hopes in 2010. Any Packers fan who minimizes the importance of the growth and development of talent on the roster doesn’t understand a basic element of Thompson’s plan.

    Good post, Pappa San.

    And just as I’d be more impressed if FrankRizzo would post his bets before the games rather than reporting results afterword, I will look forward to him posting all of the obvious studs Thompson bypasses in the draft.
     
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  15. fettpett

    fettpett Cheesehead

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    While I agree with you ThxJack, Packer fans have been really bipolar on TT too. Until last season he could do no right, now all of a sudden he can do no wrong. There are legit concerns with the team that he failed to address last offseason and prior to that. He's done a fantastic job of building a great team, but it has flaws (every team does, but some are fairly glaring for a 15-1 team that won the SB last season).

    I hope he fixes them, but with his track record I'm not going blindly trust that he's going to do it.
     
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  16. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Listen I'm not going to sit here and try to diminish our accomplishments in winning a championship, but Ted leading us to a title is hardly the conclusion I'd come to. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of things, some beyond our control had to go right just for us to get a seed in the playoffs.

    It's not like we completely tore it up.



    Linebacker is a more important position in the 3-4 scheme. But your OLB's can't get to the QB when nobody on the line can get any push, unless they are a truly special player, like Matthews. Raji is the only guy that can do that. Opposing teams know that so he's been rendered useless for the most part this season. If the line can get push/pressure you don't really need a huge playmaker off the edge. You can get away with having a average/solid player at OLB.

    When you look at the Niners, and considering our situation. Would you take a guy like Ahmad Brooks or would you take Justin Smith? Think about it for a second.

    Their dominance in their front 3 allows their linebacker to fly around and do whatever the hell they want.

    Nobody would consider Jones, Zombo or Walden playmakers at OLB. They aren't even great players but they did well getting pressures and sacks on the QB last seasons because of Jenkins and our lines' ability to get push.

    I'd like to think a better time to develop players and add depth is when you actually have a guy that can play to begin with. We don't. Save Raji and maybe Pickett we have a carousel of journeymen and guys that, quite frankly suck on the defensive line.

    Jenkins was the guy during our SB run. We don't have that guy anymore that is force up front, at that position that teams respect.

    Our best player up there is BJ Raji and as I said teams know that. One guy can't do everything
     
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  17. SEWICHEESE

    SEWICHEESE Cheesehead

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    WOW! Great post!
    My sentiments to a T on everything you said.
    Everything is built upon the D-line, thats where you need your best players. Look at the Giants, theyre proof.
     
  18. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    Some facts fans need to remember but seem to keep forgetting:
    • You cannot have a pro-bowl player at every position, so some positions are naturally going to be weaker than others. The best you can do is hope the players you have get better and look to try and improve each position while staying within the salary cap.
    • Taking a guy high in the draft != instant stud, or even a good player. League history is littered with guys taken high in the draft who were busts. Here's just one list: http://football.about.com/od/nfldrafthistory/tp/topdraftbusts.htm. And hindsight is always 20/20.
    • Just because Ted Thompson doesn't reach, trade for or select a guy you think he should doesn't mean he's not addressing a position of need, and some positions are a greater need than others. Offensive line, for example, is a much greater need than OLB.
    • You are not going to win the Super Bowl every year. The only thing you can do is try and make the playoffs on a consistent enough basis to win one or two, perhaps more if you're lucky. Ted's done just that with this organization- Built a team that can make the playoffs and take a shot at a Super Bowl run more often than not. We've made the playoffs the last three years in a row and 4 out of the last 5 years. And one of those runs did include a Super Bowl title. You can't have much more success than that.
    • Having the opportunity to work with them day in and day out, our coaching staff knows far more about what the players can and cannot do than we do, and Brad Jones had 7 sacks in the last half of the first year running this scheme. Unfortunately injuries have marred his development and production in recent years, but he's showed promise at the position. Whether he's able to become the answer at the position or not, I don't know, but neither does anyone else for that matter. Only our coaching staff knows what he's capable of.
    I think it would quite interesting to create a "Fantasy General Manager" type game where fans who think they know more about building a roster than general managers do can track the player transactions they would have made over the long haul. I imagine it would be eye opening for fans who think running an NFL franchise is akin to fantasy football or playing Madden.
     
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  19. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    You know he missed 5 games that season, 5 games that we still won without him, right? And that we went 15-1 last season without him, right?

    You also realize that defense wasn't the reason we lost to the New Jersey Giants, right?
     
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  20. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    No doubt some Packers fans have been bipolar regarding Thompson, but not all of us. I, for example, have been a Thompson fan since his arrival as GM but I’ve never thought he, or any other human being on the face of the Earth, is above reproach. Of course Thompson makes mistakes but look at the team he has assembled and its record over the past two years. There is certainly more right with this team than is wrong. There’s a reason those who back up their opinions with dollars have the Packers among the favorites to win it all this coming season.

    IMO those who accuse Thompson of ignoring or not addressing needs or concerns on defense are wrong. A GM can address problems and still make mistakes. A GM can assess that the talent at certain positions is sufficient and still be incorrect. For example, a GM can view the position of CB as so crucial in his division that he uses the first three picks in a draft selecting CBs and he can then watch the first and second rounders he reached for flame out. Ron Wolf didn’t ignore the position of CB to combat the Vikings’ Moss, he was laser-light-focused on it. And he still didn’t fix it.

    Ted Thompson did not ignore the position of OLB going into last season. Go back and look at the production at that position late in the 2010 regular season through the playoffs. It was reasonable to expect that Zombo or Walden would emerge after their year of experience in the system. And Jones was available to compete at that position too. No one stepped up at OLB but not IMO because Thompson ignored it. He was wrong to assume what he did. But I believe it was a reasonable assumption (since I assumed it too). Thompson made another mistake in not re-signing Jenkins but again, not just because he ignored that position. He depended upon Neal to be healthy and fulfill his potential at that spot.

    Thompson and his staff along with McCarthy and his staff do a complete analysis of every position and every player on the roster at every season’s end. They also analyze the schemes they use along with the members of the coaching staff. I assume each and every team in the league does and if that isn’t the case then I’ll bet the vast majority do. So while Thompson is ultimately responsible as Executive VP, GM and Director of (all) Football Operations, he doesn’t operate in a vacuum. What reports did he receive last offseason from Kevin Greene and Dom Capers on Walden, Zombo and Jones? Was there a player who Thompson would have taken at that position if he were available at one of the Packers picks because they graded him as a value at that pick? What reports did Thompson receive from Mike Trgovac and Dom Capers and more importantly from the medical staff on Mike Neal? Was there a player who Thompson would have taken at that position if he were available at one of the Packers picks because they graded him as a value at that pick? It’s a good thing Thompson doesn’t reach in the draft as many GMs do because even in reaching many times needs aren’t met. But by not reaching it may appear he’s ignoring positions.

    Thompson will be continuously criticized by some Packers fans for not aggressively going after UFAs from other teams and/or for not trading for veteran players on other rosters. So much so there’s at least one poster here who still can’t get over Thompson’s refusal to attempt to acquire Marshawn Lynch in 2010, even though Thompson’s decision was objectively justified by winning a title. That’s just a small example, but it seams even when Thompson is correct by any objective measure, he’s wrong in the eyes of some Packers fans. Thankfully, Thompson ignores us. His method is not to reach to fill a particular need because his analysis shows doing so not only doesn’t often work but because it’s damaging to the long-term future of the team. The reason to split the GM and HC jobs IMO is so the GM can operate for the long-term good of the franchise and that’s what Thompson does, even though he continuously makes mistakes and will for as long as he’s GM. His goal is to put the Packers in position to win it all, year after year after year. I argue he’s done that each season since 2007, with the exemption of the 2008 season. If he does that for the next several seasons the Packers will be among a handful of the best run NFL franchises and the chances of another title are pretty good. And IMO that’s as good as a GM can do.
     
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  21. SEWICHEESE

    SEWICHEESE Cheesehead

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    Agree with you on the Giants game. The offense put us in a near impossible position to win that game... turnovers and drops. In the two games we lost last year the offense was ineffective and we lost.

    But I dont see how TT addressed the lack of a good RDE and ROLB. Especially the RDE though(because he frees up the OLB to rush the passer). I agree you cant have pro bowl players at every position because how could you ever afford to pay them. But TT assuming that Neal could replace Jenkins was not smart... given the fact that Neal has as long an injury history as Jenkins did and isnt a proven good player(Jenkins was) to boot. Many of us saw this being a problem going into the season, it wasnt 20/20 hindsight for me. I think TT can be legitimately criticized for this decision. I havent ever criticized him for who he has drafted because as long as you stick to BPA/BVA you cant really lose.
     
  22. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Jesus Christ give it a rest with these analogies of we won without him we don't need him.

    It's old. The only reason we went 15-1 was because Rodgers could score almost whenever he wanted, but he's not going to be able to do that forever. If we went 15-1 without a bunch of players then why the fuking uproar about needing address the defense right now? Hey we went 15-1, right? We can do it again no problem :rolleyes:

    Just stop

    Is that so? Giving up 30 some points was all on our offense right?
     
  23. SEWICHEESE

    SEWICHEESE Cheesehead

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    Ted Thompson did not ignore the position of OLB going into last season. Go back and look at the production at that position late in the 2010 regular season through the playoffs. It was reasonable to expect that Zombo or Walden would emerge after their year of experience in the system. And Jones was available to compete at that position too. No one stepped up at OLB but not IMO because Thompson ignored it. He was wrong to assume what he did. But I believe it was a reasonable assumption (since I assumed it too). Thompson made another mistake in not re-signing Jenkins but again, not just because he ignored that position. He depended upon Neal to be healthy and fulfill his potential at that spot.


    Well, I would state it this way. IMO- Zombo and Walden were effective in the SB year because they had a good DE next to them. Last year they didnt and werent, its not their fault. For TT to assume Neal would fill that role was a mistake given his injury history and the likelyhood that he'd get injured again, which he unfortunatly did. This isnt 20/20 hindsight if you could picture this being a problem going into last season. I dont think its nit picking on this issue. Is TT a great GM? Yes, but I try to be fair when I criticize him and when he makes good decisions I try to give him credit for them. I have to believe he will fix this glaring hole, hes a smart guy.
     
  24. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    I'm sure he did address it, that's not what anyone is saying.

    We, or at least I am saying that again, it appears he is about to make the same mistake again this coming season by keeping around guys like Jones, Zombo and Walden, Neal, Wynn, Green who not only can't play, but can't stay healthy.

    He thought Neal would step up to the plate. Fine with me. But he didn't.

    He though Zombo, Walden, and Jones still be good. Looking at the numbers, Fine by me. But they didn't.

    But giving it another whirl makes zero sense.

    Perhaps it's time we stop wasting our time with these guys who can't play and are made of glass and find some new blood. That's all I'm saying. It's like putting money into a piece of **** car that is just going to keep nickel and diming you.
     
  25. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    Well, the injuries to Neal were not the same each year, so I'd argue it is in hindsight. Will he suffer another long term injury to a different body part next season? I don't know, and neither do you and neither does Ted. But to think it was unrealistic for Ted to expect Neal to be healthy enough to replace Jenkins to me is flawed logic. Like ThxJackVainisi said above, based on what Neal has shown he could do when healthy, there was no reason not to think he could replace Jenkins. I don't think Neal was every fully healthy last season, so hopefully that knee strength is back and he can be the playmaker he's shown he could be capable of.
     

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