Best and Worst of Final Preseason Game vs Chiefs

Heyjoe4

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I'll just lay out it all:

Robert Tonyan first 8 games of the season put up just 204 yards on 18 receptions on 29 targets (62%). That was an 11.33 yards per catch - and had only three measurable games of more than 25 yards receiving (52, 63, 49. Found pay dirt 2. (FTR in the game he went down he had 49 yards.)

Josiah Deguara, from the Arizona game when Tonyan went down, he put up 237 yards on 23 receptions and 31 targets (74%). That was 10.3 yards per catch - and had three games of over 25 yards (37,44,66). Found pay dirt 2 times.

If someone feels Tonyan is productive and a key piece to our passing game...yet overlooks the fact Deguara produced to me is merely choosing to ignore production.

No this doesn't mean Deguara is a better or equivalent threat in the passing game to Tonyan, they're different TEs that can attack defenses differently...however Deguara has been churning out yards well before the NFL and when asked has been in the NFL, especially as he has gotten farther removed from his rookie injury and appears to be playing like the threat he was in college more and more.
I was surprised by how well DeGuarra played to close out last season. I always thought of him as a TE/HB hybrid, or maybe he was billed that way. He's not the same receiving threat Tonyan is, but the guy can get open, catch the ball, and rumble for decent YAC. I'm not sure about his blocking because he was used more as a receiver, but I'm guessing he's a decent blocker.

Anyway he was a pleasant surprise. He won't be a huge producer, but can be counted on for some yards and TDs during the season.

These are just my observations. Maybe the stats show something different. But I saw a guy who contributed to the offense, beyond my expectations.
 
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tynimiller

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I hope they limit that pass play to him behind the line of scrimmage. Once in awhile OK but they did it too much imho

His depth of target doesn't show throwing to Robert behind the line of scrimmage was a thing much?
 

sschind

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Sorry Lewis is the BEST blocking TE in the league and in MLF system that has value immensely. You won't find any TE out there that would make Lewis a non-factor in this offense.
I don't think Lewis is necessarily a slouch in the receiving department either. Despite last seasons fumble he just hasn't been asked to do much of it. It can be a good thing that he is looked at strictly as a blocking TE.
 
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tynimiller

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I don't think Lewis is necessarily a slouch in the receiving department either. Despite last seasons fumble he just hasn't been asked to do much of it. It can be a good thing that he is looked at strictly as a blocking TE.

Yup, if you look at his yards per catch and such, when asked he delivers usually. He just isn't a guy you consider a threat by any means.
 

Heyjoe4

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Yup, if you look at his yards per catch and such, when asked he delivers usually. He just isn't a guy you consider a threat by any means.
The opponents' CBs don't pay attention to Lewis as a receiving threat. He's occasionally Rodgers' last check down, and when he gets the ball, he usually has room to run (rumble, stagger?).
 
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Deguara has a long ways to go before I say he's shown much of anything at this point. One play, a season does not make. Unless of course that 1 play wins the super bowl, but it did not.
You might get your wish.
As with many positions in the NFL (also with college), year 3-4 is the most common area we see a production spike. That TE position is fairly complex in this system. It’s about that time frame for Josiah. Those increased snaps due to Tonyan going down helped shorten the learning curve. He was basically a 500 yard, 5-6TD area guy his last couple seasons at Cincinatti. I’m expecting a jump from 2021, Especially if they slow ramp Tonyan back into duty early in.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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You might get your wish.
As with many positions in the NFL (also with college), year 3-4 is the most common area we see a production spike. That TE position is fairly complex in this system. It’s about that time frame for Josiah. Those increased snaps due to Tonyan going down helped shorten the learning curve. He was basically a 500 yard, 5-6TD area guy his last couple seasons at Cincinatti. I’m expecting a jump from 2021, Especially if they slow ramp Tonyan back into duty early in.

Dude holds TE records at Cinci where some much better NFL TEs have went...Kelce...Celek both to name best two.
 

Heyjoe4

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Deguara has a long ways to go before I say he's shown much of anything at this point. One play, a season does not make. Unless of course that 1 play wins the super bowl, but it did not.
I assume you're talking about that 62 yard reception in the meaningless Detroit game. It reminded me of Etling's 50 yard TD run in PS. No CB or S with any brains is gonna risk a blown hamstring chasing down a guy in a game with no meaning.

I never expected much from DeGuarra, so I've been surprised. I thought he was drafted as a TE/HB hybrid which tells me he's expected to primarily block. He's a little more limber than I thought (and I'm thinking of catch-and-fall Richard Rodgers). I still don't like the pick, but the guy can get open. The Packers need to run TE by committee this year, or at least until Tonyan gets back to 2020 form - well IF he does......
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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If you think Tonyan is a say 75/100 type rated TE...you cannot possibly say Deguara is any lower than 60/100. Deguara's stats are not even that much worse than Tonyan...and relative to each's first couple seasons Tonyan was vastly more worthless than Deguara.

They are two different type TEs too...don't hold the same yardage or TD expectations out of Josiah you do for Tonyan as the play calls for their respective routes and such are different.
 

Heyjoe4

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If you think Tonyan is a say 75/100 type rated TE...you cannot possibly say Deguara is any lower than 60/100. Deguara's stats are not even that much worse than Tonyan...and relative to each's first couple seasons Tonyan was vastly more worthless than Deguara.

They are two different type TEs too...don't hold the same yardage or TD expectations out of Josiah you do for Tonyan as the play calls for their respective routes and such are different.
Are you referring to me? I thought I said DeGuarra surprised me, in a good way. He's not as limber or as fast as prime Tonyan. DeGuarra has a place on the team. I could have been clear about that. I only said I was surprised by the pick. If I recall, it was also a miserable draft for TEs. Geez.
 
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I'll just lay out it all:

Robert Tonyan first 8 games of the season put up just 204 yards on 18 receptions on 29 targets (62%). That was an 11.33 yards per catch - and had only three measurable games of more than 25 yards receiving (52, 63, 49. Found pay dirt 2. (FTR in the game he went down he had 49 yards.)

Josiah Deguara, from the Arizona game when Tonyan went down, he put up 237 yards on 23 receptions and 31 targets (74%). That was 10.3 yards per catch - and had three games of over 25 yards (37,44,66). Found pay dirt 2 times.

If someone feels Tonyan is productive and a key piece to our passing game...yet overlooks the fact Deguara produced to me is merely choosing to ignore production.

No this doesn't mean Deguara is a better or equivalent threat in the passing game to Tonyan, they're different TEs that can attack defenses differently...however Deguara has been churning out yards well before the NFL and when asked has been in the NFL, especially as he has gotten farther removed from his rookie injury and appears to be playing like the threat he was in college more and more.

As Krabs correctly pointed out Tonyan put up disappointing numbers as a receiver before getting injured in Arizona. Therefore Deguara matching those isn't anything to get excited about.

In addition I agree with him that the starting group at tight end is mostly likely the weakest one on the roster despite the group excelling at blocking. They don't present a huge threat as receivers though, which is an issue especially considering the wide receiving corps is a question mark entering the season as well.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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As Krabs correctly pointed out Tonyan put up disappointing numbers as a receiver before getting injured in Arizona. Therefore Deguara matching those isn't anything to get excited about.

In addition I agree with him that the starting group at tight end is mostly likely the weakest one on the roster despite the group excelling at blocking. They don't present a huge threat as receivers though, which is an issue especially considering the wide receiving corps is a question mark entering the season as well.

I never bragged the TE room was great, however I just find it ironic at times when folks want to pretend Tonyan is awesome when Deguara production is similar - especially when you look at opps or targets and what he does with them. Sad fact is the role Deguara plays in this offense will never see IMO over 40-50 targets in a single season, the fact I bet he will almost always hover around 65% or better catching if not 75% and about a 10 ypc type guy, folks gotta stop pretending he's some bum so far.
 

Heyjoe4

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I never bragged the TE room was great, however I just find it ironic at times when folks want to pretend Tonyan is awesome when Deguara production is similar - especially when you look at opps or targets and what he does with them. Sad fact is the role Deguara plays in this offense will never see IMO over 40-50 targets in a single season, the fact I bet he will almost always hover around 65% or better catching if not 75% and about a 10 ypc type guy, folks gotta stop pretending he's some bum so far.
Comparisons with Tonyan aside, DeGuarra has surprised me with his play. He's more in the mold of a guy like Richard Rodgers, but he can run pretty well with the ball, especially given his size and his TE/HB hybrid classification. I've been happy with his production.

The Packers are gonna have to get creative to use the TE group for more than blocking. Hopefully Tonyan returns to 2020 form. Otherwise, they're gonna have to wait for the draft or a trade to upgrade that group.
 
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tynimiller

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Disagree with the comp to Rodgers, completely different styles and types of TEs.
 

Heyjoe4

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Disagree with the comp to Rodgers, completely different styles and types of TEs.
It wasn't a direct comp. DeGuarra can run after the catch. Rodgers just fell down. DeGuarra is a much better TE than Rodgers. I should have made that distinction.

DeGuarra is not the kind of TE who will split the seam for 40 yard gains. Tonyan can (could) do that. Even so, DeGuarra helps the offense by doing more than just blocking, and being able to run after the catch. Most times, he's catching while running.
 
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I never bragged the TE room was great, however I just find it ironic at times when folks want to pretend Tonyan is awesome when Deguara production is similar - especially when you look at opps or targets and what he does with them.

Packers fans talking about Tonyan being an impact player are considering his play in 2020. Deguara hasn't put up numbers anywhere close to the ones Bobby did two seasons ago. On the other side, you use last year's numbers to make a point about Deguara when in reality Tonyan's production was disappointing before he was lost for the season.
 

Heyjoe4

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Packers fans talking about Tonyan being an impact player are considering his play in 2020. Deguara hasn't put up numbers anywhere close to the ones Bobby did two seasons ago. On the other side, you use last year's numbers to make a point about Deguara when in reality Tonyan's production was disappointing before he was lost for the season.
Correct. So far Tonyan has been a one-trick pony - the 2020 season. Now because it occurred over the course of a long season, I'm encouraged he can repeat it, or come close. It didn't look that way before he was hurt last year, but I'm optimistic he'll rebound.

DeGuarra has surprised me because I thought he was a TE/HB hybrid, and so more of a blocker than receiver. It's a small sample, but it looks like he can run after the catch. He's not as fast as Tonyan. He's not gonna make 40-yard seam-splitting receptions, but he's better than I thought. For what that's worth.......

Doesn't change the fact that the Packers' TE woes continue. Aside from Jared Cook's one good season, Jermichael Finley is the last TE I recall who could change a game. Well, it's not gonna change this year. Just not optimal given the unknown state of the WR group.
 
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Comparisons with Tonyan aside, DeGuarra has surprised me with his play. He's more in the mold of a guy like Richard Rodgers, but he can run pretty well with the ball, especially given his size and his TE/HB hybrid classification. I've been happy with his production.

The Packers are gonna have to get creative to use the TE group for more than blocking. Hopefully Tonyan returns to 2020 form. Otherwise, they're gonna have to wait for the draft or a trade to upgrade that group.
I always thought that’s what we were missing. We would by more dynamic with at least 1 stud TE.

Having a young Mark Andrews type or similar running around out there would very formidable right now.

Really wanted one this draft, but the supply wasn’t there.
 

Heyjoe4

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I always thought that’s what we were missing. We would by more dynamic with at least 1 stud TE.

Having a young Mark Andrews type or similar running around out there would very formidable right now.

Really wanted one this draft, but the supply wasn’t there.
Totally agree. But getting a stud TE in the draft is way harder than getting a WR. Either get lucky with a late round pick, spend in FA, or make a trade. None of those will happen this year, so we keep on hoping.

I sure hope Tonyan returns to 2020 form…..
 
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Totally agree. But getting a stud TE in the draft is way harder than getting a WR. Either get lucky with a late round pick, spend in FA, or make a trade. None of those will happen this year, so we keep on hoping.

I sure hope Tonyan returns to 2020 form…..
Yes. Tonyan eluded to himself being used more as a blocker to start the 2021 season (thus reducing his impact in receiving) I suppose much depends on how comfortable we are at OL.
 

Heyjoe4

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Yes. Tonyan eluded to himself being used more as a blocker to start the 2021 season (thus reducing his impact in receiving) I suppose much depends on how comfortable we are at OL.
Yeah good point. If the OL starts the season without Bakh AND Jenkins, then the TEs will likely have to be kept in-line to block and help set an edge. Not ideal. Then again, maybe the coaches have come up with something and the OL will be ok. The thing is, Rodgers almost always make whoever is manning the OL look good. A lack of downfield pass attempts usually is telling. Even Rodgers can't complete a 40 yarder if the OL doesn't buy him time.
 

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I said it a few times last year, our young Oline appeared better than it was at the expense at the rest of our offense. We were helping with TE's and RB's quite a bit.
 

Heyjoe4

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I said it a few times last year, our young Oline appeared better than it was at the expense at the rest of our offense. We were helping with TE's and RB's quite a bit.
Yeah I forgot that a weak OL means leaving a RB in to block, and a TE. That sure does hurt the offense. We'll just have to see how well that group plays until Bakh and Jenkins return.
 
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Tonyan eluded to himself being used more as a blocker to start the 2021 season (thus reducing his impact in receiving) I suppose much depends on how comfortable we are at OL.

Tonyan would be wrong about it though. He was used as a blocker on 38.1% of his snaps in 2020 compared to 33.0% last season.
 

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