Best and Worst of Final Preseason Game vs Chiefs

tynimiller

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Well before final cuts start pouring out look back quick at the final Preseason game:

Best Offense:
  1. WR Samori Toure: 77.1
  2. C Josh Myers: 71.9
  3. OT Rasheed Walker: 71.4
  4. TE Tyler Davis: 71.2
  5. OT Caleb Jones: 71.1

One of the debates internally I'm sure is a similar one to what I'm having also in projections and that is do we keep a 10th OL since Jenkins and Bakh are not guarantees to be ready week 1. Caleb Jones is a mountain of a man showing early signs of perhaps being special...and Walker in the final preseason showed why many of us felt he has possibly potential NFL starter in him albeit a year or two away maybe. I think in the end we gamble keeping 9 and hope one of the two clear waivers at least - and are plugged on PS.

Tyler Davis's only good game still for me is too little too late, but I suspect given his ST contributions and the apparent infatuation MLF has for him and sounds like Aaron also he will most likely be on the 53.

Toure yet again shows out when the lights come on and isn't making it easy at all for the team to choose between him and Winfree for a possible 7 WR slot...what hurts Toure is he is not the ST contributor that Winfree is and I suspect we will be choosing Winfree over Toure and praying Toure is on PS after no one claims him.

Best Defense:
  1. S De’Vante Cross: 87.9
  2. LB Quay Walker: 71.1
  3. LB Krys Barnes: 69.8
  4. OLB Kobe Jones: 66.7
  5. S Tariq Carpenter: 66.6
Tariq struggled through some injuries this year but it was nice to see him have a decent night on an otherwise rougher outing. The dude can tackle for sure and his hybrid build I think long term truly could be special. Quay and Barnes continue to strengthen my thought of the ILB room being one of the strongest and yet deepest in skills we've had in years (McDuffie and Campbell)...

Kobe Jones/Ladarius/Tipa/Garvin....sadly two of those guys are probably going to have to be on the 53 maybe even three of them...Garvin has shown the most in the actual seasons, but none have even done enough to say they deserve more snaps than Enagbare...Jones showed out a touch in KC making one final push to make initial 53.

Worst Offense:

Bottom 5 offense

  1. TE Nate Becker: 43.4
  2. QB Jordan Love: 46.5
  3. WR Juwann Winfree: 48.4
  4. RB Dexter Williams: 48.7
  5. TE Alize Mack: 51.7
FTR, many are wondering on PFF's grade of Love as he truly threw the one pick and then did solid the rest of the game leading drives that moved the ball consistently...either way that aside neither of the TEs (Becker and Mack) did a ton to make initial...BUT I think Alize Mack and his ST options make him the perfect PS stash. Winfree struggled to get open on routes, but still was targeted six times and only able to haul in one.

Dexter's low grade is highly influenced by the weight of have one pass pro chance, resulting in a sack. Dexter is at best a PS stash for us.....but Goodson and Taylor are both lightyears ahead of him IMO.

Worst Defense:
  1. LB Ty Summers: 28.1
  2. LB Isaiah McDuffie: 30.5
  3. DT TJ Slaton: 34.8
  4. CB Keisean Nixon: 39.8
  5. OLB Kingsley Enagbare: 46.8
Summers saw an abysmal game again and eventually was cut as we all know day or so later. Enagbare finally didn't excel..and is probably a good thing for the young rookie - success doesn't breed growth like struggles do at times.
 

Krabs

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Best Offense:
  1. WR Samori Toure: 77.1
  2. C Josh Myers: 71.9
  3. OT Rasheed Walker: 71.4
  4. TE Tyler Davis: 71.2
  5. OT Caleb Jones: 71.1

One of the debates internally I'm sure is a similar one to what I'm having also in projections and that is do we keep a 10th OL since Jenkins and Bakh are not guarantees to be ready week 1. Caleb Jones is a mountain of a man showing early signs of perhaps being special...and Walker in the final preseason showed why many of us felt he has possibly potential NFL starter in him albeit a year or two away maybe. I think in the end we gamble keeping 9 and hope one of the two clear waivers at least - and are plugged on PS.
I was worried about the o-line and still am on the right side a bit. This competition in training camp was a good one and makes me feel a bit better about our options. I really like Jones, but do think he ends up on the practice squad. I think Walker makes it.
Toure yet again shows out when the lights come on and isn't making it easy at all for the team to choose between him and Winfree for a possible 7 WR slot...what hurts Toure is he is not the ST contributor that Winfree is and I suspect we will be choosing Winfree over Toure and praying Toure is on PS after no one claims him.
I'm confused why people are worried about Toure and Winfree. I don't think anyone in the league is jealous of the Packers WRs. I just don't see another team stealing either one of these guys. I've said this before, but teams have their own guys they brought in and want to sign to their practice squads. There's also going to be some surprise cuts that teams will want to sign well before Winfree or Toure. I'd be really surprised if their claimed off waivers by any team.
Bottom 5 offense
QB Jordan Love: 46.5

FTR, many are wondering on PFF's grade of Love as he truly threw the one pick and then did solid the rest of the game leading drives that moved the ball consistently...either way that aside neither of the TEs (Becker and Mack) did a ton to make initial...BUT I think Alize Mack and his ST options make him the perfect PS stash. Winfree struggled to get open on routes, but still was targeted six times and only able to haul in one.
I actually thought that Love looked serviceable in this game. I felt a bit more optimistic that if Rodgers went down for 3-4 games that Love could win a couple of them. The position I'm most worried about is TE. Tonyan is really the only threat and he is coming off of injury. I'd like to see them bring another guy in, but they probably won't.
 
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tynimiller

tynimiller

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I was worried about the o-line and still am on the right side a bit. This competition in training camp was a good one and makes me feel a bit better about our options. I really like Jones, but do think he ends up on the practice squad. I think Walker makes it.

I'm confused why people are worried about Toure and Winfree. I don't think anyone in the league is jealous of the Packers WRs. I just don't see another team stealing either one of these guys. I've said this before, but teams have their own guys they brought in and want to sign to their practice squads. There's also going to be some surprise cuts that teams will want to sign well before Winfree or Toure. I'd be really surprised if their claimed off waivers by any team.

I actually thought that Love looked serviceable in this game. I felt a bit more optimistic that if Rodgers went down for 3-4 games that Love could win a couple of them. The position I'm most worried about is TE. Tonyan is really the only threat and he is coming off of injury. I'd like to see them bring another guy in, but they probably won't.

Deguara honestly could have more yards by seasons' end than Tonyan. I think they'll combine for 1,000 yards together with Bobby taking more RZ catches for TD.

I don't quite know why folks ignore how well Deguara did down the closeout of the season last year from a target, catch % and production stand point he did solidly.
 
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tynimiller

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I'm confused why people are worried about Toure and Winfree. I don't think anyone in the league is jealous of the Packers WRs. I just don't see another team stealing either one of these guys. I've said this before, but teams have their own guys they brought in and want to sign to their practice squads. There's also going to be some surprise cuts that teams will want to sign well before Winfree or Toure. I'd be really surprised if their claimed off waivers by any team.

Saying they'll hope they pass waivers isn't interchangeable with being worried. Long term if we lose both he and Winfree the franchise as a whole doesn't feel it even in all honesty most likely.
 
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I don't quite know why folks ignore how well Deguara did down the closeout of the season last year from a target, catch % and production stand point he did solidly.

The reason might be that Deguara's numbers after Tonyan went down weren't all that impressive to begin with. He didn't have a single game with more than three receptions and his yards before catch per reception at 1.65 yards over that period is rather pedestrian as well.
 
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tynimiller

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The reason might be that Deguara's numbers after Tonyan went down weren't all that impressive to begin with. He didn't have a single game with more than three receptions and his yards before catch per reception at 1.65 yards over that period is rather pedestrian as well.

Correct he didn’t come out the gate firing when Tonyan went down…but did not end the season as that. Folks sometimes see only what they want to see and I think Deguara is precisely that.

Is he a 1,000 TE heck no, but if at end of season he is sitting at or near 500 yards I wouldn’t be in the shocked group.
 
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Correct he didn’t come out the gate firing when Tonyan went down…but did not end the season as that. Folks sometimes see only what they want to see and I think Deguara is precisely that.

Is he a 1,000 TE heck no, but if at end of season he is sitting at or near 500 yards I wouldn’t be in the shocked group.

Aside of that 62-yard touchdown reception (I have mentioned before that I would have been able to score on that play based on the hole being opened by the line) against the Lions in the final regular season game Deguara had a total of 22 catches for 175 yards and a touchdown in 10 games as the #1 receiving tight end. I don't consider that something to get overly excited about.
 

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Deguara has a long ways to go before I say he's shown much of anything at this point. One play, a season does not make. Unless of course that 1 play wins the super bowl, but it did not.
 
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tynimiller

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Aside of that 62-yard touchdown reception (I have mentioned before that I would have been able to score on that play based on the hole being opened by the line) against the Lions in the final regular season game Deguara had a total of 22 catches for 175 yards and a touchdown in 10 games as the #1 receiving tight end. I don't consider that something to get overly excited about.


I'll just lay out it all:

Robert Tonyan first 8 games of the season put up just 204 yards on 18 receptions on 29 targets (62%). That was an 11.33 yards per catch - and had only three measurable games of more than 25 yards receiving (52, 63, 49. Found pay dirt 2. (FTR in the game he went down he had 49 yards.)

Josiah Deguara, from the Arizona game when Tonyan went down, he put up 237 yards on 23 receptions and 31 targets (74%). That was 10.3 yards per catch - and had three games of over 25 yards (37,44,66). Found pay dirt 2 times.

If someone feels Tonyan is productive and a key piece to our passing game...yet overlooks the fact Deguara produced to me is merely choosing to ignore production.

No this doesn't mean Deguara is a better or equivalent threat in the passing game to Tonyan, they're different TEs that can attack defenses differently...however Deguara has been churning out yards well before the NFL and when asked has been in the NFL, especially as he has gotten farther removed from his rookie injury and appears to be playing like the threat he was in college more and more.
 

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I’ll also lay it out, Tonyan’s start to last year was fairly disappointing in my eyes. I have seen him play better. I have not seen Deguara yet.
 
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tynimiller

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I’ll also lay it out, Tonyan’s start to last year was fairly disappointing in my eyes. I have seen him play better. I have not seen Deguara yet.

Correct Tonyan was not having a great year...he was on pace to end however with decent figures at about 500 yards and 5 TDs...which when you have Davante Adams I think is okay not preferred...but we will need a TE1 IMO to produce around 600 and 6TDs this year or the TE group as a whole to deliver 1,000 yards and say 8+TDs or so to help refill the production coffer.

Honestly even the year everyone thinks Tonyan "broke out" still wasn't even a 600 yard guy, however he excelled in catching his targets tremendously (88.1%) and seemingly caught every RZ toss his way. To use a similar stat figure as above, that season Tonyan finished games with 25 or more yards of production 11 times on the season...and always had minimum of one catch a game.
 

Krabs

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Correct Tonyan was not having a great year...he was on pace to end however with decent figures at about 500 yards and 5 TDs...which when you have Davante Adams I think is okay not preferred...but we will need a TE1 IMO to produce around 600 and 6TDs this year or the TE group as a whole to deliver 1,000 yards and say 8+TDs or so to help refill the production coffer.

Honestly even the year everyone thinks Tonyan "broke out" still wasn't even a 600 yard guy, however he excelled in catching his targets tremendously (88.1%) and seemingly caught every RZ toss his way. To use a similar stat figure as above, that season Tonyan finished games with 25 or more yards of production 11 times on the season...and always had minimum of one catch a game.
Our TE group is the weakest position on the team. No one gets me excited. It's something I've already stated on other threads. This position makes me nervous and even more so with the changes to the WR group.
 
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tynimiller

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Our TE group is the weakest position on the team. No one gets me excited. It's something I've already stated on other threads. This position makes me nervous and even more so with the changes to the WR group.

OLB is our weakest IMO, not from a top shelf perspective but there is zero beneath it. Zero. Those two spots I'm not going to be shocked if we bring a vet in.
 

Krabs

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OLB is our weakest IMO, not from a top shelf perspective but there is zero beneath it. Zero. Those two spots I'm not going to be shocked if we bring a vet in.
I just can't agree with that. When you say weakest they have two very solid starters. They arguably don't have a quality player at the TE position at all. Gary and Smith both can make plays. I agree there isn't much depth at the OLB position. I can't agree that it is weaker in talent than the TEs.
 
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tynimiller

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I just can't agree with that. When you say weakest they have two very solid starters. They arguably don't have a quality player at the TE position at all. Gary and Smith both can make plays. I agree there isn't much depth at the OLB position. I can't agree that it is weaker in talent than the TEs.

Wow...no quality player at TE? Really? We have the exact same TE group we've had for 39 wins in three seasons. I'd love to have it upgraded or Tonyan and Deguara to both see a full healthy season together but no quality TE? We have a TE that arguably is the best at one pivotal facet of the TE position in blocking ever to play in the last 30 years in Lewis. Tonyan and Deguara have both proven very capable in the passing game and Tonyan a RZ beast when clicking. Shoot even our 4th TE (Davis) has starts that were useful at worst to his team last year.

We have Gary and Preston and then literally zero behind them from a proven facet.

I 100% get the argument exists to say TE is a weaker overall position room than OLB...but to the degree your espousing is just something I vehemently believe is wrong.

Either way I think perhaps you're underselling and I'm overselling and we flip in the other room. Both us would embrace a veteran brought in for either room.
 

Krabs

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Wow...no quality player at TE? Really? We have the exact same TE group we've had for 39 wins in three seasons. I'd love to have it upgraded or Tonyan and Deguara to both see a full healthy season together but no quality TE? We have a TE that arguably is the best at one pivotal facet of the TE position in blocking ever to play in the last 30 years in Lewis. Tonyan and Deguara have both proven very capable in the passing game and Tonyan a RZ beast when clicking. Shoot even our 4th TE (Davis) has starts that were useful at worst to his team last year.

We have Gary and Preston and then literally zero behind them from a proven facet.

I 100% get the argument exists to say TE is a weaker overall position room than OLB...but to the degree your espousing is just something I vehemently believe is wrong.

Either way I think perhaps you're underselling and I'm overselling and we flip in the other room. Both us would embrace a veteran brought in for either room.
That I agree with. However, when you say upgrade, you're talking about upgrading backups. I'm talking about upgrading the starting unit. Personally, I think Lewis doesn't bring much to the team. Yes, he's a good blocker. That is so one dimensional though. Tonyan is coming off injury and didn't do much before that. Deguara is pretty unproven and hasn't shown much that he is going to be the guy or progress. Maybe quality is the wrong word to use, but I don't have a good feeling about any of our TEs. I have a great feeling out our starting OLBs and our defense as a whole. If Tonyan can get back to a couple years ago I'd be happy, but still would favor an upgrade. Regardless, GPG!
 
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tynimiller

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Sorry Lewis is the BEST blocking TE in the league and in MLF system that has value immensely. You won't find any TE out there that would make Lewis a non-factor in this offense.
 

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TE's don't need 1000 yards and 15TD's to be considered good. Tonyan did break out that year. he caught basically everything thrown at him and lots of 1st downs and TD's. Besides blocking that's what you need out of your TE. When they only get 2-3 targets a game on a good week, they have to make 2-3 catches for 1st's and TD's.
There isn't a much more "make the most of every opportunity because they're going to be very limited" position on the field. Unless you're a WR playing TE. But that's different.
 

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Sorry Lewis is the BEST blocking TE in the league and in MLF system that has value immensely. You won't find any TE out there that would make Lewis a non-factor in this offense.
I didn't say non-factor. I said one dimensional. Either way, we are on the same page with upgrading both positions.
 

Krabs

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TE's don't need 1000 yards and 15TD's to be considered good. Tonyan did break out that year. he caught basically everything thrown at him and lots of 1st downs and TD's. Besides blocking that's what you need out of your TE. When they only get 2-3 targets a game on a good week, they have to make 2-3 catches for 1st's and TD's.
That was two years ago for Tonyan. He started slow last year and now is coming off injury. I'm still in favor of upgrading if possible. I also wouldn't be in favor of cutting Tonyan. I would just like to see someone better in front of him. We will see how it all works out.
 

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TE's don't need 1000 yards and 15TD's to be considered good. Tonyan did break out that year. he caught basically everything thrown at him and lots of 1st downs and TD's. Besides blocking that's what you need out of your TE. When they only get 2-3 targets a game on a good week, they have to make 2-3 catches for 1st's and TD's.
There isn't a much more "make the most of every opportunity because they're going to be very limited" position on the field. Unless you're a WR playing TE. But that's different.
I hope they limit that pass play to him behind the line of scrimmage. Once in awhile OK but they did it too much imho
 

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