Bench Eddie Lacy?

brandon2348

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While you may like running Lacy with Rodgers under center better he has been more succesful doing it out of the shotgun.

2013: 4.67 YPA out of the shotgun compared to 3.88 yards when Rodgers is under center

2014: 4.26 YPA shotgun compared to 3.94 yards under center (the Vikings game already included)

It's really not that hard to understand.

You guys just don't get it. It wont work against fast front sevens which we will probably play in the playoffs. It might work here and there if Rodgers gets there defense on there heals.

Your using your stats like the government uses its "unemployment numbers" and "growth numbers".

How many times this year has Lacy been tackled behind the line of scrimmage or minimal gain when taking ball from shotgun? It's hard to sustain drives when you lose yards on the ground.

I'll take the consistent modest gains and let Lacy wear down a D creating friendly down and distance rather then trying to break a home run play when he isn't even a home run back.
 

TJV

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I don't know how much simpler I can post it without you saying I said this or that.
C'mon - I quoted what you posted. If you would have posted what you did in the rest of this post instead of the "bread and butter" and "miss-lead"ing stats nonsense - which it took you a while to address, it would have come down to a difference in opinions rather than you misstating things.
 

brandon2348

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C'mon - I quoted what you posted. If you would have posted what you did in the rest of this post instead of the "bread and butter" and "miss-lead"ing stats nonsense - which it took you a while to address, it would have come down to a difference in opinions rather than you misstating things.

No you guys are taking it out of context and Massaging stats to prove a point. You guys LOVE Lacy in the shotgun. Great. Your not gonna love it if MM pulls it out in the Playoffs against a good and fast front 7 unless it's just used to throw teams off after ground game has been established.
 

TJV

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No you guys are taking it out of context and Massaging stats to prove a point. You guys LOVE Lacy in the shotgun. Great. Your not gonna love it if MM pulls it out in the Playoffs against a good and fast front 7 unless it's just used to throw teams off after ground game has been established.
More BS. Tell us how those stats are being massaged. And if you believe that, why did you post this:
I acknowledged last years stats in one of my posts and that he ran the ball out of the shotgun quite often and effectively at times.
I definitely never posted I LOVE Lacy in the shotgun and I haven't seen anyone else post that. What I have posted is blocking is the most important factor in Lacy’s slow start this season. I have also posted Lacy has been more hesitant running the ball than he was last year, no doubt due in part to blocking but not entirely IMO. I, and others have just pointed to stats of Lacy’s ypc out of the shotgun vs. QB under center.

And if the Packers OL run blocks as it did against the Lions’ SIX man front against any team in the playoffs, it won’t matter if Lacy has a 25-yard head start.
 

Pack-12

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No you guys are taking it out of context and Massaging stats to prove a point. You guys LOVE Lacy in the shotgun. Great. Your not gonna love it if MM pulls it out in the Playoffs against a good and fast front 7 unless it's just used to throw teams off after ground game has been established.

Nobody is saying they LOVE Lacy running in shotgun or that that's the only type of running play we should do or even that we should do it more often. All anyone here has done is challenge the BS idea that some have been spewing that our problems with running the ball were that we were running from shotgun too often or that we weren't running it well from shotgun. That idea is FALSE. Our problems with running the ball this year have been that we were running ineffectively from behind center.

You ask "How many times this year has Lacy been tackled behind the line of scrimmage or minimal gain when taking ball from shotgun?" well the answer is not as many times as he has on runs from behind center. Not even close. The problem that needs to be fixed is we need to run it better from behind center not more often. If every run is getting stuffed so they spread the defense out and run a draw from shotgun that works that isn't a bad thing and that's what has been happening a lot this year.
 

brandon2348

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More BS. Tell us how those stats are being massaged. And if you believe that, why did you post this: I definitely never posted I LOVE Lacy in the shotgun and I haven't seen anyone else post that. What I have posted is blocking is the most important factor in Lacy’s slow start this season. I have also posted Lacy has been more hesitant running the ball than he was last year, no doubt due in part to blocking but not entirely IMO. I, and others have just pointed to stats of Lacy’s ypc out of the shotgun vs. QB under center.

And if the Packers OL run blocks as it did against the Lions’ SIX man front against any team in the playoffs, it won’t matter if Lacy has a 25-yard head start.


Your missing my point completely. Maybe I am not explaining it correctly. Those shotgun plays don't work 90 percent of the time unless the blocking is textbook upfront and Lacy gets to the second level because he has no momentum and he isn't gonna shake and juke a lot of guys in the backfield. I don't know what you have seen but I have seen him trying to break tackles just to get back to LOS against fast pursuing defenses in the first 4 games. My big thing is why MM kept running those types of plays in first four games over and over. I was at the Minnesota game and really liked MM's game plan and play calling other then the sweep on 3rd and short to Starks.

IMO against faster front sevens with more physical D-lines that shotgun crap isn't gonna get it done when trying to establish the ground game. If teams are going to play a "cover 2 shell" against us like they did in the first four games then in the future when those challenges arise MM should bring guys in a give Lacy a lead blocker(like he did against Minnesota) and let him pound going forward. Even if the blocking is less then perfect it gives Lacy a better chance of getting some positive yards while wearing the defense down opposed to losing yards and helping kill drives.

As far as 2013 I really don't care about those stats as that was a whole different situation. That is not take away from Eddy Lacy and his great year and performance but this is 2014 and a whole different situation.
 

brandon2348

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I am talking about using Lacy and our personnel to force a good front seven out of there "cover 2 shell". You guys are talking about 2013-2014 stats of YPC out of the shotgun.

I think we just have a miscommunication.
 

longtimefan

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Your missing my point completely. Maybe I am not explaining it correctly. Those shotgun plays don't work 90 percent of the time unless the blocking is textbook upfront and Lacy gets to the second level because he has no momentum and he isn't gonna shake and juke a lot of guys in the backfield. I don't know what you have seen but I have seen him trying to break tackles just to get back to LOS against fast pursuing defenses in the first 4 games. My big thing is why MM kept running those types of plays in first four games over and over. I was at the Minnesota game and really liked MM's game plan and play calling other then the sweep on 3rd and short to Starks.

IMO against faster front sevens with more physical D-lines that shotgun crap isn't gonna get it done when trying to establish the ground game. If teams are going to play a "cover 2 shell" against us like they did in the first four games then in the future when those challenges arise MM should bring guys in a give Lacy a lead blocker(like he did against Minnesota) and let him pound going forward. Even if the blocking is less then perfect it gives Lacy a better chance of getting some positive yards while wearing the defense down opposed to losing yards and helping kill drives.

As far as 2013 I really don't care about those stats as that was a whole different situation. That is not take away from Eddy Lacy and his great year and performance but this is 2014 and a whole different situation.

Per Capt post
2013: 4.67 YPA out of the shotgun compared to 3.88 yards when Rodgers is under center

2014: 4.26 YPA shotgun compared to 3.94 yards under center (the Vikings game already included)

Since 2013 was vs 16 games, wouldnt that prove it can work??

To throw out 2013 is baffling to me
 

brandon2348

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Per Capt post


Since 2013 was vs 16 games, wouldnt that prove it can work??

To throw out 2013 is baffling to me


I am basing it on what I have seen first four games against good "front sevens". We have different personnel this year and players with more experience. We also have Aaron Rodgers playing again. Also, I have said I don't like "slow developing run plays" that don't include the shotgun where Lacy is in a single back against really good front sevens . Like the sweep.
 
D

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I am basing it on what I have seen first four games against good "front sevens".

Then you should go back and watch the games another time. Here´s how Lacy did out of the shotgun during the first four games:

vs. Seattle: 6 runs for 23 yards (3.83 average): 15, 1, 2, 0, 2, 3
vs. NY Jets: 3 runs for 8 yards (2.67 average): 3, 1, 4
vs. Detroit: 8 runs for 39 yards (4.88 average): 3, 0 (fumble), 6, 7, 7, 17, 3, -4
vs. Chicago: 3 runs for 13 yards (4.33 average): 9, 3, 1

Lacy had 13 runs for no gain and 6 for minus yardage during the first four games, with only three and one respectively coming out of the shotgun.
 
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BTW you would have a valid point criticizing the passing offense out of the shotgun and how often the Packers pass out of it (81.6%) compared to when Rodgers lines up under center. While the completion percentage ist exactly the same (66.7%), yards per attempt are way higher with #12 under center (12.6 compared to 6.8).
 

brandon2348

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Then you should go back and watch the games another time. Here´s how Lacy did out of the shotgun during the first four games:

vs. Seattle: 6 runs for 23 yards (3.83 average): 15, 1, 2, 0, 2, 3
vs. NY Jets: 3 runs for 8 yards (2.67 average): 3, 1, 4
vs. Detroit: 8 runs for 39 yards (4.88 average): 3, 0 (fumble), 6, 7, 7, 17, 3, -4
vs. Chicago: 3 runs for 13 yards (4.33 average): 9, 3, 1

Lacy had 13 runs for no gain and 6 for minus yardage during the first four games, with only three and one respectively coming out of the shotgun.

I am not playing the stat game with ya on this. I will never be convinced that against good front sevens running the ball out of the shotgun or slow developing run plays with Lacy behind center by himself or the sweep is a good way to get those teams out there "cover 2 shell" that Rodgers hates.

The fastest way to do it is to bring guys in and put Kuhn in as lead blocker zone block on edge and then play action out of it. Once you get the defense on there heels you can shotgun draw trap as much as MM's heart desires. You gotta soften em up first with body blows.

That's my stat for you. It's called "getting results".
 
H

HardRightEdge

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I am not playing the stat game with ya on this. I will never be convinced that against good front sevens running the ball out of the shotgun or slow developing run plays with Lacy behind center by himself or the sweep is a good way to get those teams out there "cover 2 shell" that Rodgers hates.

The fastest way to do it is to bring guys in and put Kuhn in as lead blocker zone block on edge and then play action out of it. Once you get the defense on there heels you can shotgun draw trap as much as MM's heart desires. You gotta soften em up first with body blows.

That's my stat for you. It's called "getting results".
I believe there are distortions in these stats as you suggest.

When the Packers run for short yardage, and the defense it keyed to it, most often that's with Rodgers under center. We see short yardage plays with a 7 man line, sometimes together with an H-back/FB and only one WR, sometimes with the full house backfield (or "inverted bone" or whatever you want to call it), where Lacy has two blockers with him in the backfield (a formation I loathe, by the way). These are under center plays.

The point being, the runs designed for getting short yards are concentrated in the under-center snaps.

Conversely, when running out shotgun it's typically from a passing formation with the defense spread. It's not uncommon to see an audible from pass to run out of shotgun when it's evident Rodgers does not like what he sees in the coverage alignment. We've played a couple of teams that were confident in their 4 man rush and dropped 7...that's an audible-to-run situation if it's not 3rd. and long.

Given these factors, if Lacy were equally effective out of shotgun or under center, I'd expect the spread in the stats, as presented by CaptainWIMM above, to be wider than they are in 2014.

To my eye, this offense has the best run/pass balance and a look that keeps the defense guessing with the single back I, inline TE, and 3 wide.

That's the set out of which Lacy hit on the two big runs against the Vikes, setting the tone for the game.

The Vikes played neutral against this neutral offensive set with 6 men in the box against the 6 man line...I like Lacy's odds there if the guys execute. It also makes for more convincing play action. And Lacy just looks better, more in character, with a head start out of under center; he does not look as good starting flatfooted out of shotgun.

A key is for Quarless to block the way he did against the Vikes to make it work. Something happened there...it could have been the weaker competition, it could have been Quarless getting religion and seeing an opportunity to get his starting job back after Rodgers got pushed all over the field (and in Lacy's face). Whatever it was, we want more.

As for your preference for a blocking back, I don't think I necessarily agree unless the object is short yardage. I tried to find the piece where Lacy was quoted as preferring single back because the blocking back tends to get in his way or clog the hole, but I'm not finding it at the moment. I find that to be not surprising at all.
 
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brandon2348

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I believe there are distortions in these stats as you suggest.

When the Packers run for short yardage, and the defense it keyed to it, most often that's with Rodgers under center. We see short yardage plays with a 7 man line, sometimes together with an H-back/FB and only one WR, sometimes with the full house backfield (or "inverted bone" or whatever you want to call it), where Lacy has two blockers with him in the backfield (a formation I loathe, by the way). These are under center plays.

The point being, the runs designed for getting short yards are concentrated in the under-center snaps.

Conversely, when running out shotgun it's typically from a passing formation with the defense spread. It's not uncommon to see an audible from pass to run out of shotgun when it's evident Rodgers does not like what he sees in the coverage alignment. We've played a couple of teams that were confident in their 4 man rush and dropped 7...that's an audible-to-run situation if it's not 3rd. and long.

Given these factors, if Lacy were equally effective out of shotgun or under center, I'd expect the spread in the stats, as presented by CaptainWIMM above, to be wider than they are in 2014.

To my eye, this offense has the best run/pass balance and a look that keeps the defense guessing with the single back I, inline TE, and 3 wide.

That's the set out of which Lacy hit on the two big runs against the Vikes, setting the tone for the game.


The Vikes played neutral against this neutral offensive set with 6 men in the box against the 6 man line...I like Lacy's odds there if the guys execute. It also makes for more convincing play action. And Lacy just looks better, more in character, with a head start out of under center; he does not look as good starting flatfooted out of shotgun.

A key is for Quarless to block the way he did against the Vikes to make it work. Something happened there...it could have been the weaker competition, it could have been Quarless getting religion and seeing an opportunity to get his starting job back after Rodgers got pushed all over the field (and in Lacy's face). Whatever it was, we want more.

As for your preference for a blocking back, I don't think I necessarily agree unless the object is short yardage. I tried to find the piece where Lacy was quoted as preferring single back because the blocking back tends to get in his way or clog the hole, but I'm not finding it at the moment. I find that to be not surprising at all.


Yes, TE blocking is a key. Our TE's got abused against Detroit.

I am okay with single back with Lacy but sometimes I don't like the "slow development" of the run plays being called. Especially against faster front sevens that can pursue.
 

brandon2348

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I just think there are so many variables in the equation as far "Lacy running the ball in the Shotgun" that's it's really hard to explain it in a single post how it works and when to use it etc etc. I don't think you can point to a particular stat and say that works or this doesn't work.

There is a place for Lacy to be handed the ball off in the shotgun but once again IMO when were trying to get a stubborn front seven and force there defense out of the "cover 2 shell" that we have a better chance of doing that by bringing guys in and pounding quicker hitting plays.

Also, nothing drives me more crazy when MM calls a sweep play or draw trap on 3rd and short especially when we haven't been able to run the ball. It's like with all the other options at his disposal that's the play. I mean catching defenses off guard works sometimes but are you serious.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Yes, TE blocking is a key. Our TE's got abused against Detroit.

I am okay with single back with Lacy but sometimes I don't like the "slow development" of the run plays being called. Especially against faster front sevens that can pursue.
I think that's right. Lacy looks more natural to me when they get him the ball with a head of steam and let him use his vision and lateral quickness to the hole.
 

brandon2348

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When Lacy's "dreads" are flopping around all over the place behind the LOS that isn't a good sign. Get him going forward.

Let him takes some guys helmet off. He likes it.
 
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