Bench Eddie Lacy?

[HardRightEdge]

Last week he ran almost exclusively out of the shotgun position. Plus Lacy has even said he is used to being behind the QB and that running out of shotgun is new to him. Regardless, I like Lacy having a 7 yard head of steam when he gets the ball and that seemed to work well last night too.

That's right. And he prefers the single-back I-set...the FB/H-back tends to interfere with his vision and generally gets in his way.

 

[Pack-12]

Last week he ran almost exclusively out of the shotgun position. Plus Lacy has even said he is used to being behind the QB and that running out of shotgun is new to him. Regardless, I like Lacy having a 7 yard head of steam when he gets the ball and that seemed to work well last night too.

Last week he ran out of shotgun 3 times for 9,3,1 yards. Also the 7 yard run that got called back for Linsley holding. Before last night he was averaging over 4 ypc out of shotgun runs and less than 3 on everything else. Shotgun runs being the problem is just some BS that people keep passing around for whatever reason.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Last week he ran out of shotgun 3 times for 9,3,1 yards. Also the 7 yard run that got called back for Linsley holding. Before last night he was averaging over 4 ypc out of shotgun runs and less than 3 on everything else. Shotgun runs being the problem is just some BS that people keep passing around for whatever reason.

Pack-12 is correct about that, here's Demovsky's story about it:

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=green-bay-packers&id=13749&src=desktop

 

[HardRightEdge]

I'll take one dimension when he's able to average 4.5 - 5 yards per attempt.

Me too, as a spot player, but not as the main man. There a lot more to a tailback than the fantasy stats.

 

[brandon2348]

Well obviously MM listened to someone and stopped running Lacy out of shotgun as "bread and butter" run plays. Got Kuhn in there and did some zone blocking scheme off tackle. Like I've been saying get him going "downfield".

 

[TJV]

Well obviously MM listened to someone and stopped running Lacy out of shotgun as "bread and butter" run plays.

From the Demovsky article linked above. Before last night's game:

And if you think he's carrying the ball significantly more on shotgun plays than with the quarterback under center, well that isn't true either. Last year, 34.2 percent of his attempts came on shotgun plays. This year, it's 35.8 percent.All of these numbers, courtesy of ESPN Stats & Info, suggest one thing: The Packers aren't using Lacy all that differently than they did last season, when he rushed for 1,178 yards.

"Bread and butter"?

 

[brandon2348]

From the Demovsky article linked above. Before last night's game: "Bread and butter"?

I don't really care what Demovsky says. If you cant see the scheme and formation difference in the run game from last night to are previous games "this year" I can't help ya.

 

[TJV]

I don't really care what Demovsky says. If you cant see the scheme and formation difference in the run game from last night to are previous games "this year" I can't help ya.

You've missed the point. Twice. First, as I posted Demovsky wrote that before last night's game. Second, you characterized McCarthy running Lacy out of the shotgun as a bread and butter running play when both last season and this he ran out of the shotgun a little more than a third of the time. The bread & butter run plays were from under center.

 

[brandon2348]

You've missed the point. Twice. First, as I posted Demovsky wrote that before last night's game. Second, you characterized McCarthy running Lacy out of the shotgun as a bread and butter running play when both last season and this he ran out of the shotgun a little more than a third of the time. The bread & butter run plays were from under center.

Yeah well me and some other people have been posting that on here for weeks. I really don't have the time to pull them up and I don't need to be right. I am just happy Lacy and the running game got it going. I am not trying to outdo Demovsky but it seems like it was already something people on here have been chattering about.

They had some success running Lacy out of the shotgun last year I know but my point is that when your struggling to get the run game going and you have a running back like Eddy Lacy why not go back to basics and pound which they did last night throwing Kuhn in there and running more I formation type stuff and zone blocking on the edge. It's not rocket science.

I may have missed it but I did't see Lacy take one hand off from the shotgun last night. I have even heard Lacy doesn't like running the ball from shotgun.

 

[brandon2348]

I mean does anybody really think Eddy Lacy should be running sweeps?

 

[HardRightEdge]

I mean does anybody really think Eddy Lacy should be running sweeps?

I don't think many of those pitches are necessarily designed to go outside. The idea, I believe, is to influence the defense to flow to the outside to open cutback lanes. This would be part of the zone blocking theory...you make the hole by pushing the defense in the direction of the influence.

In most cases, if Lacy goes outside on those pitches it's because there's no cutback lane. The guy's instincts are those of a north/south runner and a good fit for the zone scheme...patience, plant, get vertical through the hole and then plow through the second level. I don't think he's running to turn the corner very often by intent...mostly he's getting strung out because the line is getting beat inside.

 

[brandon2348]

I don't think many of those pitches are necessarily designed to go outside. The idea, I believe, is to influence the defense to flow to the outside to open cutback lanes. This would be part of the zone blocking theory...you make the hole by pushing the defense in the direction of the influence.

In most cases, if Lacy goes outside on those pitches it's because there's no cutback lane. The guy's instincts are those of a north/south runner and a good fit for the zone scheme...patience, plant, get vertical through the hole and then plow through the second level. I don't think he's running to turn the corner very often by intent...mostly he's getting strung out because the line is getting beat inside.

Right, that may work work against some teams but against faster defensive front 7's like the Seahawks, Jets, Lions, they pursue to fast. Either way, I like Lacy in there in I form or variations of it with lead blocker.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yeah well me and some other people have been posting that on here for weeks. I really don't have the time to pull them up and I don't need to be right. I am just happy Lacy and the running game got it going. I am not trying to outdo Demovsky but it seems like it was already something people on here have been chattering about.

They had some success running Lacy out of the shotgun last year I know but my point is that when your struggling to get the run game going and you have a running back like Eddy Lacy why not go back to basics and pound which they did last night throwing Kuhn in there and running more I formation type stuff and zone blocking on the edge. It's not rocket science.

Maybe you should read Demovsky's article after all. While some here have criticized McCarthy for running Lacy out of the shotgun he averaged nearly two yards more doing it compared to when Rodgers was under center (stats from before the Vikings game).

 

[brandon2348]

Maybe you should read Demovsky's article after all. While some here have criticized McCarthy for running Lacy out of the shotgun he averaged nearly two yards more doing it compared to when Rodgers was under center (stats from before the Vikings game).

If people want to get all stat happy and ignore the real issue then fine. You can easily miss-lead yourself and others with stats and skew them to make a point. Once again I watch film and while Lacy was successful running out of the shotgun last year (which I admitted), it was against pathetic run defenses . Against faster pursing front sevens he will never have success running the ball with plays and formations MM tried to use him earlier this season. I expect us to play good teams with a fast front seven in the playoffs. Sure, when you got the passing game putting the defense on there heels throw in a shotgun draw trap play or sweep. It should be used a as situational run play not "bread and butter".

The bottom line here is Lacy is most effective running behind Rodgers with a lead blocker using zone blocking on the edge. All this "power trap" in the 1 gap and sweep plays don't play to Lacy's strength. The reason for this is obvious and like I shared if people don't get it I can't help them. You want to get Lacy space and running "downfield" picking up steam. Also, to keep bringing up 2013 is an error because Lacy was a rookie and was the first year we really could run the football in a long time. Teams game plan Lacy and are run game more now.

 

[OldSchool101]

IMO a key component in the running success this week was involving Starks more. Many of us called for it in here earlier in the week and MM heard us (not literally) Starks kept his 5+ average intact once again while keeping Lacy fresh and low and behold it worked. Also that short dump pass to Eddie over the C worked and was what a few in here had in mind to open things up. It wasn't any one thing that brought success but rather a combination of adjustments. I'd like to offer a compliment to Linsley, he pushed his defender back 5 yards on some running plays and it opened lanes for Lacy too. It was so much better than how he tackled people last week! Lol

 

[longtimefan]

IMO a key component in the running success this week was involving Starks more. Many of us called for it in here earlier in the week and MM heard us (not literally) Starks kept his 5+ average intact once again while keeping Lacy fresh and low and behold it worked.
l

Starks wasnt in the 1st 2 series when Lacy got 61 yards

So for me, it would seem his style and the blocking is more important at the beginning of the game..

As game goes on, then yes Starks gives Ed a break

 

[Pack-12]

If people want to get all stat happy and ignore the real issue then fine. You can easily miss-lead yourself and others with stats and skew them to make a point. Once again I watch film and while Lacy was successful running out of the shotgun last year (which I admitted), it was against pathetic run defenses . Against faster pursing front sevens he will never have success running the ball with plays and formations MM tried to use him earlier this season. I expect us to play good teams with a fast front seven in the playoffs. Sure, when you got the passing game putting the defense on there heels throw in a shotgun draw trap play or sweep. It should be used a as situational run play not "bread and butter".

The bottom line here is Lacy is most effective running behind Rodgers with a lead blocker using zone blocking on the edge. All this "power trap" in the 1 gap and sweep plays don't play to Lacy's strength. The reason for this is obvious and like I shared if people don't get it I can't help them. You want to get Lacy space and running "downfield" picking up steam. Also, to keep bringing up 2013 is an error because Lacy was a rookie and was the first year we really could run the football in a long time. Teams game plan Lacy and are run game more now.

but as has been pointed out already the "real issue" wasn't running out of shotgun too often or running out of shotgun ineffectively. The real issue was we were running from behind center ineffectively. So the entire idea of shotgun runs being the problem was just completely wrong. The bottom line is Lacy can run the ball well from anywhere if the blocking is decent and it hasn't been until Thursday.

 

[OldSchool101]

IMO a key component in the running success this week was involving Starks more. Many of us called for it in here earlier in the week and MM heard us (not literally) Starks kept his 5+ average intact once again while keeping Lacy fresh and low and behold it worked. Also that short dump pass to Eddie over the C worked and was what a few in here had in mind to open things up. It wasn't any one thing that brought success but rather a combination of adjustments. I'd like to offer a compliment to Linsley, he pushed his defender back 5 yards on some running plays and it opened lanes for Lacy too. It was so much better than how he tackled people last week! Lol[

Starks wasnt in the 1st 2 series when Lacy got 61 yards

So for me, it would seem his style and the blocking is more important at the beginning of the game..

As game goes on, then yes Starks gives Ed a break

Good point LongT. I should've qualified that I came in moments before we scored TD #2 so you're right he already had 1/2 his run stats by then. Again, I commend The O line for the push. I think playing all the other good run Ds early is paying dividends now. Eddie was running downhill Sunday. And no concussions. Even better

 

[brandon2348]

but as has been pointed out already the "real issue" wasn't running out of shotgun too often or running out of shotgun ineffectively. The real issue was we were running from behind center ineffectively. So the entire idea of shotgun runs being the problem was just completely wrong. The bottom line is Lacy can run the ball well from anywhere if the blocking is decent and it hasn't been until Thursday.

You said "The bottom line is Lacy can run the ball well from anywhere if the blocking is decent"

That's such a blanket statement and it's ridiculous. Any RB in the NFL can run the ball effectively with decent blocking up front and the right scheme. The point here is being missed ant twisted and for whatever reason because maybe some people like to see Lacy running "draw power trap" and "sweep right" out of shotgun. I suppose you also like "power trey" with pulling guards that they run him at times as well. All these plays are slow. Blocks need to be sustained for quite some time and Lacy isn't the fastest through the hole. You can't go out there against fast "front sevens" and run slow developing run plays that don't give the OL a chance to make your ridiculous blanket statement true.

Like I have posted. There are times to throw in a "draw trap" or maybe even a sweep "here and there" but if that is the "bread and butter" of our running game and running playbook were in trouble because are personnel isn't best suited for that. The goal should be to play to Lacy's strengths and allow him to be most successful. The goal should not be to live in La La land and believe we can just line up in any formation against anyone and just line Lacy up anywhere and roll yards. If you believe this to be the case then I assume you haven't watched the first four games.

 

[NOMOFO]

I love eddie. Love the guy. ...but ... the issues are NOT all O-line. Eddie has not run well at times.

Beyond that, it's clear... Eddie lacks the break away speed that the "great ones" have. There already this year have been several times he had more than enough space that he should have taken it to the house and he wasn't able to. Twice against the Vikes alone. ...but I do think he's a very good player ...love his effort and attitude...and I think he's a great addition to the Pack.

 

[TJV]

There are times to throw in a "draw trap" or maybe even a sweep "here and there" but if that is the "bread and butter" of our running game and running playbook were in trouble ...

Just curious, how do you define "bread and butter" as it applies to this conversation?

Also, do you think the number of times Eddie ran out various formations, last season and this, and the average ypc relating to those formations are misleading stats?

 

[brandon2348]

Just curious, how do you define "bread and butter" as it applies to this conversation?

Also, do you think the number of times Eddie ran out various formations, last season and this, and the average ypc relating to those formations are misleading stats?

"bread and butter", I am using this phrase as an analogy to the offense using certain plays and formations as the staple of our running play book. Meaning in the first four games this season we mostly used "shotgun run plays" "sweep plays" and "power trap blocking" up front as our "bread and butter", meaning we used it a lot. When we needed a big run MM went to these plays.

I acknowledged last years stats in one of my posts and that he ran the ball out of the shotgun quite often and effectively at times. I pointed to the fact that most of the teams we ran it effectively against had poor defenses. I also pointed to fact that it was Lacy's rookie season and now teams know who he is and what his strengths and weakness's are. I will also add this: He would of had more yards and possibly more TD's last year if he was used more effectively with blocking schemes and formations that I have described in posts.

I'm dead set on this and I don't know how anyone else couldn't be after watching the first 5 games. The Minnesota game was a thing of beauty watching Lacy running the ball and giving him to opportunity to do what he does best. Am I saying he would of had a 100 yards a game against Hawks, Jets, Lions, Bears? I don't know but he would of had more then he did running the crap MM was calling IMO.

The Detroit game and Seattle game for example. Those defense's ran the same defense almost the whole game and they both played a "two deep shell" base type D. Why MM didn't switch it up and run the type of running plays and formations with blocking schemes he did against Minnesota is beyond me. Hopefully they have it all figured out now.

 

[TJV]

"bread and butter", I am using this phrase as an analogy to the offense using certain plays and formations as the staple of our running play book. Meaning in the first four games this season we mostly used "shotgun run plays" "sweep plays" and "power trap blocking" up front as our "bread and butter", meaning we used it a lot.

That’s not what you initially posted:

Well obviously MM listened to someone and stopped running Lacy out of shotgun as "bread and butter" run plays.

IMO that was the source of some of the contention since the Demovsky article says before the Vikings game, “And if you think he's carrying the ball significantly more on shotgun plays than with the quarterback under center, well that isn't true either. Last year, 34.2 percent of his attempts came on shotgun plays. This year, it's 35.8 percent. … The Packers aren't using Lacy all that differently than they did last season, when he rushed for 1,178 yards.”

Then when confronted with the stats from the Demovsky article, you posted, “If people want to get all stat happy and ignore the real issue then fine. You can easily miss-lead yourself and others with stats and skew them to make a point.” That’s why I asked the questions. If “bread and butter” means the formation “mostly used”, the post of yours I quoted above is wrong because the formation mostly used last season and for the first four games this season on Lacy’s runs was QB under center.

Although you don’t explicitly say it, I assume in addition to acknowledging the facts/stats from last season, you also acknowledge them through the first four games of this season. Since you initially characterized those stats as misleading, and since you initially were incorrect in your use of the term “bread and butter” (by your definition), perhaps you can see why your posts were challenged as they were.

Going forward IMO Lacy’s success running the ball will mostly depend upon how the OL run blocks and will also depend upon Lacy not being hesitant as he was at times through the first four games. Before today’s games (and of course very early in the season), Miami was 7th in yards surrendered per game, but they were 19th in ppg surrendered. And they were 13th in rushing yards surrendered, so it should be a pretty good test. BTW, the Jets, Seahawks, and Lions were numbers 1, 5, and 6, respectively in rushing yards surrendered per game.

 

[brandon2348]

That’s not what you initially posted: IMO that was the source of some of the contention since the Demovsky article says before the Vikings game, “And if you think he's carrying the ball significantly more on shotgun plays than with the quarterback under center, well that isn't true either. Last year, 34.2 percent of his attempts came on shotgun plays. This year, it's 35.8 percent. … The Packers aren't using Lacy all that differently than they did last season, when he rushed for 1,178 yards.”

Then when confronted with the stats from the Demovsky article, you posted, “If people want to get all stat happy and ignore the real issue then fine. You can easily miss-lead yourself and others with stats and skew them to make a point.” That’s why I asked the questions. If “bread and butter” means the formation “mostly used”, the post of yours I quoted above is wrong because the formation mostly used last season and for the first four games this season on Lacy’s runs was QB under center.

Although you don’t explicitly say it, I assume in addition to acknowledging the facts/stats from last season, you also acknowledge them through the first four games of this season. Since you initially characterized those stats as misleading, and since you initially were incorrect in your use of the term “bread and butter” (by your definition), perhaps you can see why your posts were challenged as they were.

Going forward IMO Lacy’s success running the ball will mostly depend upon how the OL run blocks and will also depend upon Lacy not being hesitant as he was at times through the first four games. Before today’s games (and of course very early in the season), Miami was 7th in yards surrendered per game, but they were 19th in ppg surrendered. And they were 13th in rushing yards surrendered, so it should be a pretty good test. BTW, the Jets, Seahawks, and Lions were numbers 1, 5, and 6, respectively in rushing yards surrendered per game.

All I am saying is I like Lacy in I formation and variations of the I formation with a lead blocker. IMO he is more effective that way with zone blocking scheme on the edge and quicker hitting plays between the tackles.

I don't like Lacy on "slow developing run plays" "including sweeps", "slow power trap plays from shotgun" and the "hot potato pitch play" they run.

Obviously good blocking is a key but formation and blocking scheme IMO goes a long way in having a successful running game to compliment a RB's talents. I don't think MM did a good job of that in the first four games based on the make up of the defenses we played. If you think he did then your entitled to your opinion.

I don't know how much simpler I can post it without you saying I said this or that.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

All I am saying is I like Lacy in I formation and variations of the I formation with a lead blocker. IMO he is more effective that way with zone blocking scheme on the edge and quicker hitting plays between the tackles.

I don't like Lacy on "slow developing run plays" "including sweeps", "slow power trap plays from shotgun" and the "hot potato pitch play" they run.

Obviously good blocking is a key but formation and blocking scheme IMO goes a long way in having a successful running game to compliment a RB's talents. I don't think MM did a good job of that in the first four games based on the make up of the defenses we played. If you think he did then your entitled to your opinion.

I don't know how much simpler I can post it without you saying I said this or that.

While you may like running Lacy with Rodgers under center better he has been more succesful doing it out of the shotgun.

2013: 4.67 YPA out of the shotgun compared to 3.88 yards when Rodgers is under center

2014: 4.26 YPA shotgun compared to 3.94 yards under center (the Vikings game already included)

It's really not that hard to understand.