9-7 good enough?

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree.... but I'm afraid he holds a lot of the cards.... he may be too expensive to trade..... and I can't see them cutting him outright... but who knows

The Packers would save $11.1 million in cap space by releasing him though. While I agree he holds most of the cards I don´t expect any other team to offer him that kind of money if he was cut therefore Thompson might be able to force him to agree to renegotiate his deal.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I agree.... but I'm afraid he holds a lot of the cards.... he may be too expensive to trade..... and I can't see them cutting him outright... but who knows

"Fortunately", this year was the last "big" Dead Cap hit on Clay. While it sounds like a lot of money, the dead cap hit on him for next year is "only" $4.1 M and $0 in 2018. Keeping him around adds another $11.1M in 2017 and $11.4M in 2018. I don't think there is any question that if we have seen the best of Clay and its all downhill from here, not trading or out right cutting him is kind of nuts. The hard question the Packers will have to ask themselves, how much does Clay have left and is he still worth the contract?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Poppa, were you ever a politician ?? I love the way you just reeled off those answers.....lol

He just wants to make the Packers great again!

 

[Sky King]

Here's the thing with Matthews. When he's been healthy he has consistently been the best player on defense (at OLB). He also makes other players better, as evidenced by Nick Perry's play when Clay is opposite him.

The argument can legitimately be made that he's just so-so playing ILB. While that may be true he still played hard when he was in there the past two seasons, and he shored up a miserably weak ILB group when they moved him in there.

Who should be held responsible for the sorry state of the ILB position at the time? It's not Clay's fault that TT rolled the dice on the ILB position during 2014. In 2015 he added an average guy to the mix but was still short with Clay being the only viable alternative. So he took one for the team again last season and again played played out of position at ILB. This year he added another average ILB, thus releasing Clay to play at his regular position.

But this season, despite being back at the position where he belongs, he has been playing injured. First the chronic hamstring and then the shoulder separation. Despite that he has continued to play because he was needed. He even sucked it up and has played the past few games with a very painful shoulder injury that virtually renders him one-armed. A drop-off in performance has to be expected, especially with a significantly painful shoulder separation. It's not like he's healthy yet his performances continued to be sub-par.

Did Nelson get asked to take a pay cut because he tore his ACL last preseason? Of course not. Injuries are a part of the game and Matthews has been injured, unfortunately, but he still plays. In pain. Doing the best he can under the (injury) circumstances - his as well as others. Had he been out with a torn ACL all season long would people still be calling him out and suggesting he take a pay cut because the injury affected his play? I sure hope not.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Here's the thing with Matthews. When he's been healthy he has consistently been the best player on defense (at OLB). He also makes other players better, as evidenced by Nick Perry's play when Clay is opposite him.

The argument can legitimately be made that he's just so-so playing ILB. While that may be true he still played hard when he was in there the past two seasons, and he shored up a miserably weak ILB group when they moved him in there.

Who should be held responsible for the sorry state of the ILB position at the time? It's not Clay's fault that TT rolled the dice on the ILB position during 2014. In 2015 he added an average guy to the mix but was still short with Clay being the only viable alternative. So he took one for the team again last season and again played played out of position at ILB. This year he added another average ILB, thus releasing Clay to play at his regular position.

But this season, despite being back at the position where he belongs, he has been playing injured. First the chronic hamstring and then the shoulder separation. Despite that he has continued to play because he was needed. He even sucked it up and has played the past few games with a very painful shoulder injury that virtually renders him one-armed. A drop-off in performance has to be expected, especially with a significantly painful shoulder separation. It's not like he's healthy yet his performances continued to be sub-par.

Did Nelson get asked to take a pay cut because he tore his ACL last preseason? Of course not. Injuries are a part of the game and Matthews has been injured, unfortunately, but he still plays. In pain. Doing the best he can under the (injury) circumstances - his as well as others. Had he been out with a torn ACL all season long would people still be calling him out and suggesting he take a pay cut because the injury affected his play? I sure hope not.

So what you are saying is if you were TT, you would continue as is and keep paying Clay his contracted amount?

 

[adambr2]

Here's the thing with Matthews. When he's been healthy he has consistently been the best player on defense (at OLB). He also makes other players better, as evidenced by Nick Perry's play when Clay is opposite him.

The argument can legitimately be made that he's just so-so playing ILB. While that may be true he still played hard when he was in there the past two seasons, and he shored up a miserably weak ILB group when they moved him in there.

Who should be held responsible for the sorry state of the ILB position at the time? It's not Clay's fault that TT rolled the dice on the ILB position during 2014. In 2015 he added an average guy to the mix but was still short with Clay being the only viable alternative. So he took one for the team again last season and again played played out of position at ILB. This year he added another average ILB, thus releasing Clay to play at his regular position.

But this season, despite being back at the position where he belongs, he has been playing injured. First the chronic hamstring and then the shoulder separation. Despite that he has continued to play because he was needed. He even sucked it up and has played the past few games with a very painful shoulder injury that virtually renders him one-armed. A drop-off in performance has to be expected, especially with a significantly painful shoulder separation. It's not like he's healthy yet his performances continued to be sub-par.

Did Nelson get asked to take a pay cut because he tore his ACL last preseason? Of course not. Injuries are a part of the game and Matthews has been injured, unfortunately, but he still plays. In pain. Doing the best he can under the (injury) circumstances - his as well as others. Had he been out with a torn ACL all season long would people still be calling him out and suggesting he take a pay cut because the injury affected his play? I sure hope not.

If this were a one off thing with Clay that he had one injury and was struggling because of it, I don't think we'd be having this conversation because we'd be trusting Matthews to be healthy and improved again next year, but this is not the first year Matthews has been hampered by nagging injuries and his production no longer matches his contract regardless of his position.

Also, harsh as it may sound, 'doing his best' (if true. At time his effort has seemed questionable this season, but I understand it may be the result of the injury), not a consideration for taking a near $16M hit on a guy. You've got to be productive to take up 10% of the cap.

I don't draw too many comparisons to Jordy, who has still been very productive after his injury. But yes players can and have been released or renegotiated when their production dropped because of injuries that were no fault of their own. Al Harris did. Sam Shields will likely lose his job in the offseason because of an injury that is no fault of his own.

 

[Sky King]

So what you are saying is if you were TT, you would continue as is and keep paying Clay his contracted amount?

What I'm saying is that I do not believe TT will demand a pay cut due to Matthews' injuries. I never said anything about what I would do if I were TT, so let's not attempt to build that strawman.

Matthews has had the hamstring issue since he got here and that's been well documented. That chronic condition came as no surprise after he had signed the big contract. That injury kept him out of the lineup early this season and may still have affected his play when he got back into games. Then, his shoulder was significantly injured against the Eagles. He may not have been truly healthy one game this season. Why view this any differently than when a core player loses an entire season due to injury?

We see a fair amount of "addition by subtraction" being suggested on this forum. This guy or that should take a pay cut or he should be let go. So, who will be their replacements? Draft picks? Street FAs? We know that TT will not dabble in any of the more talented nor expensive FA's come March.

Good Lord, I miss Ron Wolf.

 

[adambr2]

We see a fair amount of "addition by subtraction" being suggested on this forum. This guy or that should take a pay cut or he should be let go. So, who will be their replacements?

Sounds like a question we were all answering 'Lane Taylor?? Really??' to a couple months ago.

Perry could possibly replace Matthews, although he struggles with injuries himself. I certainly wouldn't pay him the kind of money Matthews got, obviously.

My main point is, at the end of the day, if you make a habit out of willingly taking on excessive cap hits for players whose production on the field is worth much less than they deliver on the field, you're going to get yourself in trouble with your cap.

I agree with you on the part that I'm not sure whether or not TT will do anything about it. I hope he does, but I wouldn't bet heavily on it.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Here's the thing with Matthews. When he's been healthy he has consistently been the best player on defense (at OLB). He also makes other players better, as evidenced by Nick Perry's play when Clay is opposite him.

Did Nelson get asked to take a pay cut because he tore his ACL last preseason? Of course not. Injuries are a part of the game and Matthews has been injured, unfortunately, but he still plays. In pain. Doing the best he can under the (injury) circumstances - his as well as others. Had he been out with a torn ACL all season long would people still be calling him out and suggesting he take a pay cut because the injury affected his play? I sure hope not.

Unfortunately Matthews hasn´t been the best player on defense even when healthy for quite some time. While Perry performs on a higher level with him in the lineup the reason is not opponents double teaming Clay as they hardly do that anymore.

The reason I´m advocating the Packers to renegotiate Matthews´ contract is mostly a lack of performance and not his injuries although the team has to consider them as well. There shouldn´t be any doubt his level of play doesn´t justify him counting $15.2 million towards the cap next season.

 

[Mondio]

Unfortunately Matthews hasn´t been the best player on defense even when healthy for quite some time. While Perry performs on a higher level with him in the lineup the reason is not opponents double teaming Clay as they hardly do that anymore.

The reason I´m advocating the Packers to renegotiate Matthews´ contract is mostly a lack of performance and not his injuries although the team has to consider them as well. There shouldn´t be any doubt his level of play doesn´t justify him counting $15.2 million towards the cap next season.

This is a tough situation. He WAS worth the money, but he's being paid money now to be the guy that can take over a game when we need it and change momentum and he's been just a guy. I know he's hurt, but he's completely ineffective, or at least has been for a while. and besides him, we have only 1 other OLB under contract for next year. so where is our leveraging power? renegotiate or we'll cut you? I don't think the Packers and Matthews have that type of relationship, but the Packers have little negotiating leverage with him really.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The only leverage the Packers have with Mathews is the open market and Matthews himself. If Matthews and his agent realistically look at the open market, they should able to see that his value is less then his contract. So if the Packers do release him, he will make a lot less money. Problem with that, there is always "that team" that will over value Matthews and overpay him.

The second part is Matthews himself. If he is a team guy and loves playing for the Packers, he may say to himself "look, I have had it good here in GB, I am going to take a paycut for the good of the team, get paid what I am worth and try to finish out my career here". Not sure of the odds of that happening. It is something I can see Jordy and AR doing, but not sure of any other players.

 

[Sky King]

Unfortunately Matthews hasn´t been the best player on defense even when healthy for quite some time. While Perry performs on a higher level with him in the lineup the reason is not opponents double teaming Clay as they hardly do that anymore.

The reason I´m advocating the Packers to renegotiate Matthews´ contract is mostly a lack of performance and not his injuries although the team has to consider them as well. There shouldn´t be any doubt his level of play doesn´t justify him counting $15.2 million towards the cap next season.

You excluded the part about Matthews playing out of position for almost a season and a half, a position that he had not played before. No wonder. He still registered 6.5 sacks on the 2015 season, second only to Julius Peppers' team leading 10.5. So far this season he has 4 sacks to Peppers' 7.5 and Perry's team leading 8, the three team leaders on a team that couldn't register a sack last week other than from Peppers.

Well, there you have it. Matthews and two other players that aren't good enough, healthy enough, nor young enough to continue playing for this team at their current or projected salaries (according to some of the folks around here).

Matthews would be out of work like Sitton was out of work, and possibly for more money than the Packers are currently paying him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You excluded the part about Matthews playing out of position for almost a season and a half, a position that he had not played before. No wonder. He still registered 6.5 sacks on the 2015 season, second only to Julius Peppers' team leading 10.5. So far this season he has 4 sacks to Peppers' 7.5 and Perry's team leading 8, the three team leaders on a team that couldn't register a sack last week other than from Peppers.

Well, there you have it. Matthews and two other players that aren't good enough, healthy enough, nor young enough to continue playing for this team at their current or projected salaries (according to some of the folks around here).

Matthews would be out of work like Sitton was out of work, and possibly for more money than the Packers are currently paying him.

Matthews is getting paid way too much money to be fine with him having only four sacks on the season or his overall performance in 2016 (PFF has him ranked 102nd out of 106 qualifying edge defenders).

There´s absolutely no way another team would offer him more money than the Packers are slated to pay him next season.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Well, there you have it. Matthews and two other players that aren't good enough, healthy enough, nor young enough to continue playing for this team at their current or projected salaries (according to some of the folks around here).

Matthews would be out of work like Sitton was out of work, and possibly for more money than the Packers are currently paying him.

If you were an NFL GM, what would you be willing to trade for Matthews, since it sounds like you would be fine with his current contract?

That will be the tough part of trading Matthews IMO, will any other team be willing to take on his contract?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That will be the tough part of trading Matthews IMO, will any other team be willing to take on his contract?

Well, Matthews would "only" count $11.1 million towards the cap next season for a team trading for him.

 

[Sky King]

If you were an NFL GM, what would you be willing to trade for Matthews, since it sounds like you would be fine with his current contract?

That will be the tough part of trading Matthews IMO, will any other team be willing to take on his contract?

If Matthews and his agent were to be asked to take a pay cut they may in turn ask the Packers for his release. Like Sitton, if Matthews were released he would likely field multiple offers from other teams. Lucrative offers because that's what it would take. Any NFL GM looking to bolster their pass rush (and who isn't?) would explore signing Matthews.

 

[Sky King]

Matthews is getting paid way too much money to be fine with him having only four sacks on the season or his overall performance in 2016 (PFF has him ranked 102nd out of 106 qualifying edge defenders).

There´s absolutely no way another team would offer him more money than the Packers are slated to pay him next season.

Since he's under contract to the Packers, if he were traded another team (they) wouldn't need to. Way to go out on a limb. But should Matthews depart somehow sans a trade we'll just have to see if the absoluteness of your statement will hold up.

 

[Sky King]

Matthews is getting paid way too much money to be fine with him having only four sacks on the season or his overall performance in 2016 (PFF has him ranked 102nd out of 106 qualifying edge defenders).

There´s absolutely no way another team would offer him more money than the Packers are slated to pay him next season.

Would you suggest that Daniels take a pay cut, as well? He's only got 3 sacks and only 2 more tackles than Matthews has on the entire season, and Matthews has missed multiple games due to injury.

 

[Mondio]

any 2 sets of eyes can see Daniels is earning his pay check this year,week after week. Those same 2 eyes can see that Matthews is not. OLB's are supposed to get sacks, Daniels is paid to do the dirty work. Even missing games, a guy getting paid super star money, should have easily double the sacks of daniels, even in limited action

 

[Sky King]

any 2 sets of eyes can see Daniels is earning his pay check this year,week after week. Those same 2 eyes can see that Matthews is not. OLB's are supposed to get sacks, Daniels is paid to do the dirty work. Even missing games, a guy getting paid super star money, should have easily double the sacks of daniels, even in limited action

I don't disagree that Daniels is earning his keep. But Daniels hasn't been injured, either. Matthews has. Plus, for the better part of two seasons and for at least one game this season, the team asked him to play outside of his normal position.

Of course an injured player is going to less effective that he would normally be. If cutting the pay of every player who under-performs due to injury there would be a lot of unhappy players. Injuries are part of the game.

 

[Mondio]

I don't think he's getting cut, but even before the injuries this year, when they have put him on the outside he seems to just get swallowed up by tackles. no push, no pressure towards the QB. It seems he just gets stoned at the point of attack or just gets ran straight down the field with no collapse of the pocket or turning the corner to make the QB at least step up. The majority of the time it seems he just leaves a gaping hole from wherever he is rushing from. I like him lining up almost anywhere than the end of the line these days when healthy.

 

[Sky King]

Agreed that he's not been himself. Between the hammy and the shoulder that might help to explain it. We know for certain that the shoulder is still bothering him and that it may require surgery after the season is over. Yet, he still plays through the pain. Anyone who has ever suffered a significant shoulder injury can attest to the severity of the pain and the lack of strength that goes along with it. Whether the hamstring is still bothering him is anyone's guess. He's a tough guy, however. He deserves his due for that.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Bottom line for me, Matthews no longer is worth what he is due to make, healthy or not. I'm not even convinced he should be on the field with that shoulder injury, gutsy and noble of him, but not so sure it is what is best for the defense.

Ultimately, keeping him or not, will be a business decision and a tough one and as hard as it would be to see Clay go, I would much rather see the cap savings spent on keeping 2-3 more productive players on the roster and/or signing a FA. If he really wants to stay in GB and for the better of the team, maybe he would agree to restructure a deal that better reflects his level of play.

 

[Pkrjones]

CM3 took one for the team and moved to ILB in 2014 & 2015 and everyone knew he was out of position and sacrificing his stats by doing so. He was also paid almost $24Mill over that time to be an ILB which, just guessing, was probably a top 3 pay for ILB's (if not top!).

He was/is paid like a premium, top tier OLB who should be dominating and leading the team. Due to injuries and decline he's barely "just a guy" yet still getting $13.75Mil in '16. I admire him for moving positions and playing hurt, but his production is nowhere near $13-$15Mil/yr. which is what his contract calls for.

I highly doubt any team will trade a high round pick to assume his 2yr/$22.5Mil remaining base salary, which leaves drastic pay cut or his outright release as viable options. TT could completely go against his normal mode and sign 2 proven FA OLB's for 1/2 of CM3's $11.1Mil and potentially get better production and depth.

 

[swhitset]

The only leverage the Packers have with Mathews is the open market and Matthews himself. If Matthews and his agent realistically look at the open market, they should able to see that his value is less then his contract. So if the Packers do release him, he will make a lot less money. Problem with that, there is always "that team" that will over value Matthews and overpay him.

The second part is Matthews himself. If he is a team guy and loves playing for the Packers, he may say to himself "look, I have had it good here in GB, I am going to take a paycut for the good of the team, get paid what I am worth and try to finish out my career here". Not sure of the odds of that happening. It is something I can see Jordy and AR doing, but not sure of any other players.

I'm wondering if ego would let him do that..... Right now his star power is greater than his ability.. taking a pay cut would be an admission of that.