2023 week 5 MNF in Vegas

[BrokenArrow]

I'm frustrated that he isn't showing more with what he has. That would be my answer to that. I feel the Packers supporting cast is better than we're giving it credit for. I don't think Watson/Doubs/Reed is a trio of starting WRs that people hated coming into this year and I think Musgrave has been at least as much if not more than what was expected in his rookie season.

I agree that has a very talented supporting cast. But they are VERY inexperienced and you cannot expect them all to be on the same page right out of the gate. It takes TIME, which means patience. Of all his receivers, Deguara is the only one who has more than 1 season under his belt and he has SIX guys in Wicks, Reed, Musgrave, Heath, Kraft and Sims who are rookies. I'm not sure what you're expecting from them all just 5 games into the season.

FWIW, I think in another season or two, the core of that group will be outstanding.

 

[Spanky]

The jury is still out on Jordan Love. But the early evidence is not looking good.

Thankfully the Packers don't have too much invested in him guarantee-wise so he can be unceremoniously dumped at the end of this season or next without it being crippling.

 

[Magooch]

I am certainly not ready to issue any sweeping judgments on Love yet.

I don’t think he’s been put into many particularly good positions thus far.

His WR corps is shockingly inexperienced (and I’m not saying they won’t come good, but they are as raw as you could imagine right now).

With Jones hurt - which is an unfortunately common occurrence - we are bang average at RB on our best day. Dillon is not a lead back and we all know it (and to be frank he probably wouldn’t even be a backup for a fair handful of teams). There’s next to zero rush threat and that puts the QB at a huge disadvantage.

He doesn’t really seem to have that “go-to” or “safety blanket” guy yet. Some of the guys that look like they COULD be that guy - Doubs, Musgrave, Watson - have all had either drops or route running issues or both (and in the case of Watson primarily - health/lack thereof)

The OL has basically been Swiss cheese.
not a ton more to say there.

And LaFleur’s play calling has… left a lot to be desired, to say the least. It feels like LaFleur has two types of plays he calls. One is where he forgets that he doesn’t have Rodgers at QB and calls up plays that ask a TON of the QB and more or less require an elite veteran QB to execute well. And the other type is where he’s acutely aware that his QB is NOT Rodgers and he’s got a very young and inexperienced QB and WRs and ends up calling the absolute most vanilla, boring, safe, predictable offense imaginable. And this doesn’t help Love either. He’s asked too much, or he’s not trusted enough, and little in-between.

And then there’s our defense too. They had a decent showing tonight. “Decent” is arguably the high point of the season thus far, so that’s not much to brag about. Not so much tonight, but they’ve often left him in crummy situations, too.

So there are a lot of factors that have put him at a disadvantage. BUT, that said, I still think it’s fair to say that he’s underwhelmed (to say the least) and generally been poor the last few weeks. He doesn’t get a free pass because of any of the aforementioned issues. The bottom line is that in spite of these things there have been multiple instances where Love has been put in a position to win the game and has failed to do so (or unfortunately has actively taken us OUT of being in a position to win). The opportunities have been there, and many times he’s made the wrong decision, made the right decision at the wrong time, or just flat out failed to execute.

And none of those are total death knells but they’re also not things that we should just ignore or hand-wave away. I still have high hopes for Love but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms as well and I’d be lying to you if I said I had just as much confidence in Love as I did a few weeks ago, as I did after the Bears game, or as I did going into the season (and to be perfectly honest if anyone claims they’re every bit as confident in Love now as they were a month ago…well, I just have a hard time believing that.)

 

[rmontro]

And LaFleur’s play calling has… left a lot to be desired, to say the least.

At this particular point in time, I'm feeling a bit disappointed in MLF. He was supposed to be an improvement over McCarthy's offense, and be able to scheme receivers open. And there's no doubt he's introduced some nice concepts. But aside from 2020, the Packers offense hasn't exactly been setting the house on fire, even with Rodgers.

Saw this stat on the game. The Packers have now gone three straight games with three points or fewer in the first half. I heard this is the first time this has happened since Favre, or before Favre, can't remember which. In any case, not a good stat. I know we have injuries, but so do a lot of teams.

 

[milani]

Yay! I missed the first half because of a H.S. football game, only to comeback to this... more super soft defense from JB.

Too much defense period. We need some offense.

 

[milani]

At this particular point in time, I'm feeling a bit disappointed in MLF. He was supposed to be an improvement over McCarthy's offense, and be able to scheme receivers open. And there's no doubt he's introduced some nice concepts. But aside from 2020, the Packers offense hasn't exactly been setting the house on fire, even with Rodgers.

Saw this stat on the game. The Packers have now gone three straight games with three points or fewer in the first half. I heard this is the first time this has happened since Favre, or before Favre, can't remember which. In any case, not a good stat. I know we have injuries, but so do a lot of teams.

A lot of what he did is great for an experienced offense. But he is not made to teach teenagers.

 

[Heyjoe4]

That is why I picked the Raiders. We have no idea what we have. Probably means Love will have to throw and try a few Jet sweeps. They will only show a few runs. Not good. But it is what it is. If the Raiders play like the Saints we have a chance. Kids get their NFL experience.

Good call. And Love can't throw three picks and he's not the new guy on the team. "Kids get their NFL experience" - good way to describe the season.

But look at the R8DRS - they have vets in impact positions - QB, WR, DE, RB and the rookie Mayers looks good. The D played well. The O, not so much. 13 pts rarely wins games.

 

[tynimiller]

Did you see some of his throws tonight in key situations? I didn't think I needed to provide commentary on those.

This is his 4th year in the system. He's not a rookie. You have 7th round draft picks in San Francisco looking like the best QB in the league in his 2nd year.

If you hang your hat on last night's play as a reason he isn't

Then I'll hang my hat ignorantly on Bears game or the Saints game to say he is amazing.

If you don't see the fallacy in either thought I think you need to review historical growth and struggles first year starting QBs go through.

 

[tynimiller]

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Was this key drop for +8 and a sideline clock stoppage with just under a minute left Love’s fault?

Love had some bad decisions. But he also doesn’t have a great supporting cast yet. That will come with time but 5 games is not even close to making your career ending determination.

Not too mention the Musgrave drop the very next play. Love sucks clearly.... LOL

 

[Krabs]

I am certainly not ready to issue any sweeping judgments on Love yet.

I've seen more than enough. He does not have it. I'm ready to see what Clifford has.

I don’t think he’s been put into many particularly good positions thus far.

The defense gave him more than enough opportunities to score.

His WR corps is shockingly inexperienced (and I’m not saying they won’t come good, but they are as raw as you could imagine right now).

With Jones hurt - which is an unfortunately common occurrence - we are bang average at RB on our best day. Dillon is not a lead back and we all know it (and to be frank he probably wouldn’t even be a backup for a fair handful of teams). There’s next to zero rush threat and that puts the QB at a huge disadvantage.

He doesn’t really seem to have that “go-to” or “safety blanket” guy yet. Some of the guys that look like they COULD be that guy - Doubs, Musgrave, Watson - have all had either drops or route running issues or both (and in the case of Watson primarily - health/lack thereof)

This is all excuses for his play. The WRs and TEs are not that bad. I think Watson was the only WR that had a catch in the first half. The Raiders are not a good defense. His first interception he threw is one of the worst interceptions I've seen. It was right to the linebacker and into triple coverage.

The OL has basically been Swiss cheese.
not a ton more to say there.

Their play could be better, but Love had ample time on plays to read the defense. Again, the Raiders are not world beaters.

And LaFleur’s play calling has… left a lot to be desired, to say the least. It feels like LaFleur has two types of plays he calls. One is where he forgets that he doesn’t have Rodgers at QB and calls up plays that ask a TON of the QB and more or less require an elite veteran QB to execute well. And the other type is where he’s acutely aware that his QB is NOT Rodgers and he’s got a very young and inexperienced QB and WRs and ends up calling the absolute most vanilla, boring, safe, predictable offense imaginable. And this doesn’t help Love either. He’s asked too much, or he’s not trusted enough, and little in-between.

I don't disagree with this point. He might be asking too much out of Love. However, Love's play probably makes it difficult to call plays. At some point you have to take the kid gloves off.

And then there’s our defense too. They had a decent showing tonight. “Decent” is arguably the high point of the season thus far, so that’s not much to brag about. Not so much tonight, but they’ve often left him in crummy situations, too.

I can't disagree with this more. The defense played really well tonight. They held them to a total of 279 yards, 183 through the air and 96 on the ground. More importantly, they held them to 17 points. This is on top of Love throwing one of the worst interceptions I've seen and they held them to 3 and out. The defense did more than their fair share in this game.

So there are a lot of factors that have put him at a disadvantage. BUT, that said, I still think it’s fair to say that he’s underwhelmed (to say the least) and generally been poor the last few weeks. He doesn’t get a free pass because of any of the aforementioned issues. The bottom line is that in spite of these things there have been multiple instances where Love has been put in a position to win the game and has failed to do so (or unfortunately has actively taken us OUT of being in a position to win). The opportunities have been there, and many times he’s made the wrong decision, made the right decision at the wrong time, or just flat out failed to execute.

Totally agree with this assessment. I've seen enough to know that this guy does not have it.

And none of those are total death knells but they’re also not things that we should just ignore or hand-wave away. I still have high hopes for Love but there are plenty of legitimate criticisms as well and I’d be lying to you if I said I had just as much confidence in Love as I did a few weeks ago, as I did after the Bears game, or as I did going into the season (and to be perfectly honest if anyone claims they’re every bit as confident in Love now as they were a month ago…well, I just have a hard time believing that.)

 

[PackerDNA]

The most disappointing thing for me so far is that through 5 weeks we seem to be regressing instead of improving.

 

[adambr2]

Clifton, Spitz, Wells, Colledge, Tauscher, Sitton, Bulaga. Those were his starters over his first three years. And they were good enough to win a Super Bowl.

Rodgers was the most-- #1 -- most sacked QB in the NFL in 2009, his second season starting, as one point of reference.

There is a lot of revisionist history here. Rodgers had some really good lines and some poor ones. But you can't just name drop guys without context and use that to say he had a great line in his early years.

 

[Krabs]

Not too mention the Musgrave drop the very next play. Love sucks clearly.... LOL

Love does suck. That was the worst performance I can remember a Green Bay QB having in a long time. Maybe Favre vs the Rams in the playoffs.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Rodgers was the most-- #1 -- most sacked QB in the NFL in 2009, his second season starting, as one point of reference.

There is a lot of revisionist history here. Rodgers had some really good lines and some poor ones. But you can't just name drop guys without context and use that to say he had a great line in his early years.

Did they or did they not win the SB with the guys I mentioned? And you don't suppose Rodgers was ever a guy who had a tendency to take bad sacks instead of throwing the ball away, do you?

 

[adambr2]

If you hang your hat on last night's play as a reason he isn't

Then I'll hang my hat ignorantly on Bears game or the Saints game to say he is amazing.

If you don't see the fallacy in either thought I think you need to review historical growth and struggles first year starting QBs go through.

Then don't have your guy holding a clipboard for 3 years before he sees significant game action so you're not only not in a position to benefit from a cheap rookie contract but you also need to make big decisions on 5th year options and extensions before you've even really seen enough to make those decisions.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Love does suck. That was the worst performance I can remember a Green Bay QB having in a long time. Maybe Favre vs the Rams in the playoffs.

Rodgers last year, both Lions games. He was awful. Also his last 3 playoff performances, particularly in the 4th quarter.

 

[Krabs]

Rodgers last year, both Lions games. He was awful. Also his last 3 playoff performances, particularly in the 4th quarter.

What does Love's performance against the bottom feeding Raiders have to do with Rodgers performance against the Lions last season?

 

[BrokenArrow]

What does Love's performance against the bottom feeding Raiders have to do with Rodgers performance against the Lions last season?

Because it directly debunks your prior claim about there not being a QB performance as bad as last night. I disagreed and gave you two examples. The Lions defense was one of the worst last year.

 

[rmontro]

The most disappointing thing for me so far is that through 5 weeks we seem to be regressing instead of improving.

There is that. As for Love, much as we might hate to admit it, we're probably going to have to let him have this season to get used to the game and figure things out, let him learn. Then in a year or two we should have a better idea of what he's going to be.

 

[tynimiller]

Then don't have your guy holding a clipboard for 3 years before he sees significant game action so you're not only not in a position to benefit from a cheap rookie contract but you also need to make big decisions on 5th year options and extensions before you've even really seen enough to make those decisions.

You are aware that is an ENTIRELY different discussion than the claims you're making? That's rookie contract use and where and when to use a 5th year option for a guy. The reworked extension actually gave us a cheaper option than the 5th year option for a QB drafted at his spot AND an affordable out if he proves throughout the year to the staff he ain't the future.

But again that is ENTIRELY different discussion.

 

[adambr2]

You are aware that is an ENTIRELY different discussion than the claims you're making? That's rookie contract use and where and when to use a 5th year option for a guy. The reworked extension actually gave us a cheaper option than the 5th year option for a QB drafted at his spot AND an affordable out if he proves throughout the year to the staff he ain't the future.

But again that is ENTIRELY different discussion.

It's entirely related to the discussion. You claim Love needs time, fine. The bottom line is that most teams know by the end of a QBs rookie contract whether he is the guy or not. They usually get thrown in from Day 1 in today's NFL, and they live with the growing pains, but the rest of the team benefits from the cheap rookie QB contract.

Because ours sat on the bench for so long and is just finally getting repetitive real game reps, we've had to make expensive decisions with very limited information.

 

[tynimiller]

Love does suck. That was the worst performance I can remember a Green Bay QB having in a long time. Maybe Favre vs the Rams in the playoffs.

LOL....oh ye of very short memory. Not saying these were worse or better but just Rodgers first:

Let us harken back to Rodgers' arguably worst - Buccs 2008 Three picks / 14 of 27 on the day / 165 yards....

Or rodgers against New Orleans that same year tossed 3 picks again as we got DESTROYED

2009 against Tampa...another three pick game we lost

or one jumped out in my mind was the 2010 game against the Jets...literally shut out and he only threw for 170 yards on like 35 attempts completing less than half

or how about Buffalo 2014 he threw just 17 for 42 / 2 INTs no TDs / 185 yards and we lost 21 - 13 (rating wise this was the most similar to Love's last night)

2020 vs Tampa (he sucked truly against them in his career) when he threw 2 INTS no TDS / 160 yards and we got destroyed

Or the opener in 2021 vs New Orleans he threw 2 INTs / no TDs / 133 yards (less than love last night) and we got MASSACRED

2022 his three pick game against Detroit sucked pretty bad.


That's just Rodgers...I can check on Flynn, Hundley and others even before Favre if you want?

 

[tynimiller]

It's entirely related to the discussion. You claim Love needs time, fine. The bottom line is that most teams know by the end of a QBs rookie contract whether he is the guy or not. They usually get thrown in from Day 1 in today's NFL, and they live with the growing pains, but the rest of the team benefits from the cheap rookie QB contract.

Because ours sat on the bench for so long and is just finally getting repetitive real game reps, we've had to make expensive decisions with very limited information.

Again, your sidestepping to the discussion of whether smart to have done what we did and rookie contracts.

The main question of the discussion originally was whether he IS the guy or ISN'T...and I'm saying it is foolish to think we have enough evidence to make a case either way.

You sidestep that and bring up that due to us not playing him for three years we now are faced with the inability to use his rookie deal to contract others around him - LITERALLY no one would say this is factually wrong. Whether there is validity in the approach is arguable...with Aaron being the organization's greatest example of it can be worth it.

Fact is if Love proves to be the guy, none of this matters. If he proves to not be, at minimum we didn't have to decide ignorantly on a 5th year option by what we did with the extension/rework of this year deal and it can be tossed easier given the situation we did find ourselves in.

 

[Krabs]

Because it directly debunks your prior claim about there not being a QB performance as bad as last night. I disagreed and gave you two examples. The Lions defense was one of the worst last year.

No way was Rodgers performance worse against the Lions. First, the Lions are a good team and were on a hot streak. The Raiders are terrible and Love choked. You're simply deflecting on how horrible his performance was. They had a mini bye week to prepare for this bottom feeder and Love led the way to a loss. No excuse for his performance than he was bad.

 

[Krabs]

LOL....oh ye of very short memory. Not saying these were worse or better but just Rodgers first:

Let us harken back to Rodgers' arguably worst - Buccs 2008 Three picks / 14 of 27 on the day / 165 yards....

Or rodgers against New Orleans that same year tossed 3 picks again as we got DESTROYED

2009 against Tampa...another three pick game we lost

or one jumped out in my mind was the 2010 game against the Jets...literally shut out and he only threw for 170 yards on like 35 attempts completing less than half

or how about Buffalo 2014 he threw just 17 for 42 / 2 INTs no TDs / 185 yards and we lost 21 - 13 (rating wise this was the most similar to Love's last night)

2020 vs Tampa (he sucked truly against them in his career) when he threw 2 INTS no TDS / 160 yards and we got destroyed

Or the opener in 2021 vs New Orleans he threw 2 INTs / no TDs / 133 yards (less than love last night) and we got MASSACRED

2022 his three pick game against Detroit sucked pretty bad.


That's just Rodgers...I can check on Flynn, Hundley and others even before Favre if you want?

I don't think any of this proves that Love is a competent QB. I've seen enough to know that this guy does not have it. We will have to suffer through this season because he has a long leash. He proved to me last night that he's not an NFL caliber QB. Everyone can have there opinion and toss out a bunch of stats. His performance last night was awful. No amount of stats or saying I have a short memory will change that. The difference between all those stats is that I still trusted Rodgers and thought we had a chance to win those games. Turn things around for the season. I don't think that is the case at all with Love. He stinks.