2023 week 5 MNF in Vegas

adambr2

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I also need to add that Matt LaFleur has a pretty alarming established history of coming out of bye weeks/long stretches off looking completely and totally unprepared.

He is not in danger of being fired anytime soon, I do not think. But if this current season trajectory continues, I do believe his seat is hot going into 2024.
 

milani

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Good call. And Love can't throw three picks and he's not the new guy on the team. "Kids get their NFL experience" - good way to describe the season.

But look at the R8DRS - they have vets in impact positions - QB, WR, DE, RB and the rookie Mayers looks good. The D played well. The O, not so much. 13 pts rarely wins games.
I was leaving the place where I watched the game and someone caught me in the elevator and said " Hey, I'm sorry about the Packers. They almost got it. " I told him, " Oh, it's OK. This was 2 bad teams playing and it was just a matter of which would make one less play. If the game was in GB we probably win it. "
 

PikeBadger

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I've seen more than enough. He does not have it. I'm ready to see what Clifford has.

The defense gave him more than enough opportunities to score.

This is all excuses for his play. The WRs and TEs are not that bad. I think Watson was the only WR that had a catch in the first half. The Raiders are not a good defense. His first interception he threw is one of the worst interceptions I've seen. It was right to the linebacker and into triple coverage.

Their play could be better, but Love had ample time on plays to read the defense. Again, the Raiders are not world beaters.

I don't disagree with this point. He might be asking too much out of Love. However, Love's play probably makes it difficult to call plays. At some point you have to take the kid gloves off.

I can't disagree with this more. The defense played really well tonight. They held them to a total of 279 yards, 183 through the air and 96 on the ground. More importantly, they held them to 17 points. This is on top of Love throwing one of the worst interceptions I've seen and they held them to 3 and out. The defense did more than their fair share in this game.

Totally agree with this assessment. I've seen enough to know that this guy does not have it.
The WR's and TE's really are that bad. Way, way, way too many mistakes derailing too many plays. We really miss Lazard.
 

Krabs

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The WR's and TE's really are that bad. Way, way, way too many mistakes derailing too many plays. We really miss Lazard.
And that is the shape of the team. When someone says they miss Lazard tells you everything you need to know. I should add, I don't think the WRs and TEs are bad and I don't miss Lazard.
 

milani

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I also need to add that Matt LaFleur has a pretty alarming established history of coming out of bye weeks/long stretches off looking completely and totally unprepared.

He is not in danger of being fired anytime soon, I do not think. But if this current season trajectory continues, I do believe his seat is hot going into 2024.
He just does not appear to be the guy who is made for rebuilding new young teams. There are some that live for that. I remember back 50+ years ago that George Allen who coached the Rams and Redskins hated rookies. He would do everything to load his roster with veterans.
 

milani

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The WR's and TE's really are that bad. Way, way, way too many mistakes derailing too many plays. We really miss Lazard.
Yes, his route running was far better than what we see now. DeGuara is our best TE? So far from what I have observed our receivers are having almost no separation from the secondary with the exception of the Bears game. I was at the Saints game and it was remarkable how rarely anyone got free. The main reason we mounted a comeback was because of several spectacular catches with someone draped all over or we benefited from several interference penalties.
 

adambr2

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Again, your sidestepping to the discussion of whether smart to have done what we did and rookie contracts.

The main question of the discussion originally was whether he IS the guy or ISN'T...and I'm saying it is foolish to think we have enough evidence to make a case either way.

You sidestep that and bring up that due to us not playing him for three years we now are faced with the inability to use his rookie deal to contract others around him - LITERALLY no one would say this is factually wrong. Whether there is validity in the approach is arguable...with Aaron being the organization's greatest example of it can be worth it.

Fact is if Love proves to be the guy, none of this matters. If he proves to not be, at minimum we didn't have to decide ignorantly on a 5th year option by what we did with the extension/rework of this year deal and it can be tossed easier given the situation we did find ourselves in.
All it is is one man's opinion. I understand he is going to get more time to show us, and I am not questioning that.

My guess is, barring complete disaster, Love is going to get this season and the '24 season before a long-term decision is made on him.

However, even the option next year is not cheap, so he needs to be much better before the end of the season.

Also, if the Packers pick top 5-10 in 2024 and Maye or Ewers is within their range, I certainly don't think it's out of the question that they might take a swing.
 

tynimiller

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I don't think any of this proves that Love is a competent QB. I've seen enough to know that this guy does not have it. We will have to suffer through this season because he has a long leash. He proved to me last night that he's not an NFL caliber QB. Everyone can have there opinion and toss out a bunch of stats. His performance last night was awful. No amount of stats or saying I have a short memory will change that. The difference between all those stats is that I still trusted Rodgers and thought we had a chance to win those games. Turn things around for the season. I don't think that is the case at all with Love. He stinks.

Why does everyone read into things - I wasn't even coming close to making a case for or against. You made an observation which stated it was the worst QB play you'd seen since Favre. I was merely quickly recalling (half those I remembered the games but had to look up the years and stats) just Rodgers struggles.

Nowhere has anyone heard me christen Love IS or ISN'T the guy. There isn't enough credible evidence in my opinion to state either way...someone wants to bemoaned last nights game you could bemoan other games...someone wants to use his second half play against the Saints I'll point to the second half of last night....He is still VERY young in being a starter and as others have shared detailed stat comparison between him and Rodgers - it really isn't that crazy different.
 

tynimiller

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All it is is one man's opinion. I understand he is going to get more time to show us, and I am not questioning that.

My guess is, barring complete disaster, Love is going to get this season and the '24 season before a long-term decision is made on him.

However, even the option next year is not cheap, so he needs to be much better before the end of the season.

Also, if the Packers pick top 5-10 in 2024 and Maye or Ewers is within their range, I certainly don't think it's out of the question that they might take a swing.

Next year isn't an option any longer. Instead of seeing 20+ million 5th year option hit in 2024 - his hit is going to be only $7,757,731 but his void hit would total just $12.5M if we cut him.
 

Krabs

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All it is is one man's opinion. I understand he is going to get more time to show us, and I am not questioning that.

My guess is, barring complete disaster, Love is going to get this season and the '24 season before a long-term decision is made on him.

However, even the option next year is not cheap, so he needs to be much better before the end of the season.

Also, if the Packers pick top 5-10 in 2024 and Maye or Ewers is within their range, I certainly don't think it's out of the question that they might take a swing.
They will be in the top 5. I see two winnable games and probably a game they shouldn't win. I'm saying 3 more wins tops. If Nix, Penix Jr., Ewers, or Maye are there they had better take them. They need someone to compete with Love in 2024.
 

Krabs

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Next year isn't an option any longer. Instead of seeing 20+ million 5th year option hit in 2024 - his hit is going to be only $7,757,731 but his void hit would total just $12.5M if we cut him.
They won't cut him, but I sure hope they bring someone in to compete with him.
 

Krabs

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Why does everyone read into things - I wasn't even coming close to making a case for or against. You made an observation which stated it was the worst QB play you'd seen since Favre. I was merely quickly recalling (half those I remembered the games but had to look up the years and stats) just Rodgers struggles.
You have to read into things. It's a message board. Nothing is ever straight forward in writing.

My point is that I have not seen a QB throw into triple coverage the way Love did. It was a horrible effort. I don't remember seeing another QB throw right to a linebacker like that while staring down his receiver. He's supposed to be an NFL caliber QB that got to sit for 3 years learning. Yes, there will be struggles. Sure, compare all you or anyone wants to other QBs. That was a horrible play and a dreadful effort on his part. It was just bad. I get that he is who we have the rest of the season. He's also got a long leash. The Packers and the fans are stuck with him for the season. My only hope is they bring in someone to compete with him next year. The plane has crashed into the mountain.
 

gopkrs

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He did not see the guy who intercepted the ball. He looked at him early and thought he was going away from the middle. Not a good excuse but...
 

Krabs

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IF he sucks as some are already declaring - Clifford will be in by year's end to see what he is.
I foresee that happening. I do think Clifford will be starting by the end of the season. Broncos are a winnable game. Maybe split with MN. I don't see another win on the schedule to the Panthers and maybe the Bears. I'm going to say that we have a Clifford siting around the Bucs game.
 

gopkrs

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I agree with most that Love has not had enough time yet. He was very disappointing against the raiders but...And I have absolutely no idea how a few posters are thinking Clifford is a savior.
 

Krabs

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I agree with most that Love has not had enough time yet. He was very disappointing against the raiders but...And I have absolutely no idea how a few posters are thinking Clifford is a savior.
I'm not saying he is any type of savior. I would just like to see what he has got. I get a lot don't agree, but I just don't think Love is the guy. If they lose to the Broncos, which is a strong possibility, why not give him a shot? Maybe a change will be a shot in the arm for the offense. Reality is, Love is our guy regardless of the plane crashing into the mountains. We are going down with him at the helm. I'd wager we win 1-2 more games in the next 9 games. We will have a Clifford siting with 4-5 games left in the season. They won't do it right now.
 

tynimiller

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You have to read into things. It's a message board. Nothing is ever straight forward in writing.

My point is that I have not seen a QB throw into triple coverage the way Love did. It was a horrible effort. I don't remember seeing another QB throw right to a linebacker like that while staring down his receiver. He's supposed to be an NFL caliber QB that got to sit for 3 years learning. Yes, there will be struggles. Sure, compare all you or anyone wants to other QBs. That was a horrible play and a dreadful effort on his part. It was just bad. I get that he is who we have the rest of the season. He's also got a long leash. The Packers and the fans are stuck with him for the season. My only hope is they bring in someone to compete with him next year. The plane has crashed into the mountain.

They explained the linebacker one last night, there are times almost every week where a QB just doesn't see the LB and they're some of the easiest there is. The issue isn't whether it happens, the issue is if it becomes something we see a time or two a year or is it like a handful or more.

Which was the triple coverage?

The other two as I remember he tossed a deep ball to Watson in endzone 1v1 and then the one where Peters tipped it his man was covered well but was played amazingly well and the tip caused the INT as much as the decision to throw it almost.

Just one from last year that you could argue were terrible decisions by one of the greatest ever:

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Or this one, guy was sinking back and was just standing there and jumped at toss in 2015

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Two years ago Rodgers threw a cut route toss similar to Love trying to hit last night where Peters tipped it...and this one was tipped too for the INT

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Or there is this insanely poor throw last year:

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I say all this to just illustrate one of the best ever at times looks TERRIBLE. Even after being a seasoned veteran. **** happens, now to see how he responds to one of the worst games perhaps for his whole career.
 

Krabs

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They explained the linebacker one last night, there are times almost every week where a QB just doesn't see the LB and they're some of the easiest there is. The issue isn't whether it happens, the issue is if it becomes something we see a time or two a year or is it like a handful or more.

Which was the triple coverage?

The other two as I remember he tossed a deep ball to Watson in endzone 1v1 and then the one where Peters tipped it his man was covered well but was played amazingly well and the tip caused the INT as much as the decision to throw it almost.

Just one from last year that you could argue were terrible decisions by one of the greatest ever:

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Or this one, guy was sinking back and was just standing there and jumped at toss in 2015

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Two years ago Rodgers threw a cut route toss similar to Love trying to hit last night where Peters tipped it...and this one was tipped too for the INT

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Or there is this insanely poor throw last year:

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I say all this to just illustrate one of the best ever at times looks TERRIBLE. Even after being a seasoned veteran. **** happens, now to see how he responds to one of the worst games perhaps for his whole career.
The videos you sent were not watchable for me. That's okay, point taken and that wasn't my argument in the first place. I never compared Love to Rodgers. Somehow that was a natural jump for everyone on here. I said it was one of the worst I've seen in a long time. Anyway, here is a screen shot of the first interception Love threw. Fine, he didn't see the linebacker underneath. Not the first time it has happened. What about the other linebacker and the safety over the top.

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It's just an awful throw and decision. Regardless, he's our QB for the season. We will be seeing a lot more of this I'm afraid.
 

tynimiller

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The videos you sent were not watchable for me. That's okay, point taken and that wasn't my argument in the first place. I never compared Love to Rodgers. Somehow that was a natural jump for everyone on here. I said it was one of the worst I've seen in a long time. Anyway, here is a screen shot of the first interception Love threw. Fine, he didn't see the linebacker underneath. Not the first time it has happened. What about the other linebacker and the safety over the top.

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It's just an awful throw and decision. Regardless, he's our QB for the season. We will be seeing a lot more of this I'm afraid.

Oh I got you, I read your initial as the lineback pick was different than the "triple coverage" gotcha.

I only went to Rodgers as you said it had been since Favre in an initial statement since we saw that type of abysmal play at QB...just wasn't the case in my mind is all.
 

longtimefan

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LOL....oh ye of very short memory. Not saying these were worse or better but just Rodgers first:

Let us harken back to Rodgers' arguably worst - Buccs 2008 Three picks / 14 of 27 on the day / 165 yards....

Or rodgers against New Orleans that same year tossed 3 picks again as we got DESTROYED

2009 against Tampa...another three pick game we lost

or one jumped out in my mind was the 2010 game against the Jets...literally shut out and he only threw for 170 yards on like 35 attempts completing less than half

or how about Buffalo 2014 he threw just 17 for 42 / 2 INTs no TDs / 185 yards and we lost 21 - 13 (rating wise this was the most similar to Love's last night)

2020 vs Tampa (he sucked truly against them in his career) when he threw 2 INTS no TDS / 160 yards and we got destroyed

Or the opener in 2021 vs New Orleans he threw 2 INTs / no TDs / 133 yards (less than love last night) and we got MASSACRED

2022 his three pick game against Detroit sucked pretty bad.


That's just Rodgers...I can check on Flynn, Hundley and others even before Favre if you want?
Ooooooooooo
 

longtimefan

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The videos you sent were not watchable for me. That's okay, point taken and that wasn't my argument in the first place. I never compared Love to Rodgers. Somehow that was a natural jump for everyone on here. I said it was one of the worst I've seen in a long time. Anyway, here is a screen shot of the first interception Love threw. Fine, he didn't see the linebacker underneath. Not the first time it has happened. What about the other linebacker and the safety over the top.

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It's just an awful throw and decision. Regardless, he's our QB for the season. We will be seeing a lot more of this I'm afraid.
So a qb has never tossed an int and not seen a lb or a safety?

come on now

you hate love and it’s okay. But don’t use that int as base argument

iirc if that lb isn’t there it’s a 1st down
 

adambr2

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I think some of us, myself included, probably had unrealistic expectations and hopes for both the 2023 Packers and Jordan Love's trajectory after Week 1.

With that said, the main thing you look for in a young team is steady, if not linear improvement. So it's a bit concerning to see us basically regress week to week from every week since Week 1. That feels like coaching.
 

Magooch

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I think some of us, myself included, probably had unrealistic expectations and hopes for both the 2023 Packers and Jordan Love's trajectory after Week 1.

With that said, the main thing you look for in a young team is steady, if not linear improvement. So it's a bit concerning to see us basically regress week to week from every week since Week 1. That feels like coaching.
Exactly this.

Can anyone point to ONE single facet of our offense where we can confidently say “yeah, that’s definitely trending in the right direction!”

Pass blocking?
Run blocking?
Short passing game?
Intermediate passing game?
Long passing game?
Screen passes?
Inside runs?
Outside runs?
Route running, separation, etc?
Scheme/playcalling?
Decision making/execution?

Perhaps it’s an unfair comparison and he’s just a total outlier but I keep going back to Purdy and SF. and it’s not even so much about Purdy himself per se. But they played against a MUCH better defense than LV and still it felt like Purdy had multiple wide open receivers on just about every play that he could take his pick to throw to. On the other hand it feels like Love rarely ever has guys getting open in that way; makes me think either our young WRs simply aren’t all they’re cracked up to be (or we’re just not that talented overall) or our offense isn’t schemed and/or executing in a way that maximizes the talent it has…
 

rmontro

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I don't think any of this proves that Love is a competent QB. I've seen enough to know that this guy does not have it. We will have to suffer through this season because he has a long leash.
I agree that losing to the Raiders is not particularly encouraging. But if Love could have completed that TD pass to Watson in the end zone we win the game and everybody feels better. In any case, you're right he has a long leash, so might as well settle in and enjoy the ride.
 
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