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Would a 4-3 really require that much retooling?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by GreenBlood, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    NOTE: This post isn't about firing Dom Capers or any specific prospect for a replacement. It is purely a discussion of whether our defensive roster might really be equally or better suited to a 4-3 defense or not.

    I've been thinking about some of the options out there for 4-3 coordinators and conventional wisdom says we would need to rebuild a big portion of our personnel. But is that necessarily true? We've actually drafted a lot of 4-3 linemen in the last 2-3 years and have been trying to adapt them to the 3-4 as pros. Just this past year, we drafted Perry, Worthy and Daniels, ALL of whom played in a 4-3 defense in college. Perhaps that's exactly why our defense has been poor against the run. Let's look at the potential we have already on the roster for a 4-3 defense.

    I think we have the makings of a killer 4-3 DL:

    LE: Perry
    DT: Raji/Worthy/Pickett
    RE: Daniels/Neal

    LB might be a little trickier, but with so many on the team, we shouldn't have much trouble fitting them in.

    ROLB: Matthews/Walden
    MLB: Bishop/Hawk
    LOLB: Smith/Moses/Zombo

    Mainly, I think it comes down to two small issues. First, we would need to reinforce our depth on the DL in the draft, but I think we'd have a good core. Second, where is Matthews best used? You would assume ROLB, but could you imagine his sideline-to-sideline range as a MLB?

    I'm beginning to think the traditional 2-3 year re-tooling period to switch over might not be applicable here. Instead, we might simply be looking at a 1 year adjustment period to a new defensive scheme. I could live with that.
     
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  2. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Closer to:
    WDE Perry Moses
    NT Raji Pickett Worthy
    DT Neal Daniels Wilson
    SDE Walden Zombo
    WLB Hawk Francois
    MLB Bishop Smith
    SLB Matthews Lattimore Manning

    I really don't like how it shakes up
     
  3. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    Clay is really the only one you have to worry about i think. Perry will thrive at DE. The tackles will be fine.

    Urlacher. 6'4 258 Clay 6'3 255

    Maybe Lovie could run his defense here.
     
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  4. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    That just feels wrong... Clay could go MLB, but Miller mold has my thoughts though. He does line up 4-3 DE style in our nickle though, but remember when Greene tried to play DE, it didn work out and he pulled to OLB. Chris Clemons also makes that deter me
     
  5. CHIpackFAN

    CHIpackFAN Cheesehead

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    WOW! This would be awesome

    This would be sweet! there would be so many options scheme wise if we went back to a 4-3 with this lineup. I think this D would be nasty.
     
  6. melvin dangerr

    melvin dangerr Cheesehead

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    If we do it this way do we keep Capers? this does not fit his MO at all...
     
  7. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    No chance. The change would be towards the new DC's style. Capers will do the exact same thing he does every year if he stays and lately thats been to give up record setting yardage to the opposition.
     
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  8. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    I'd rather have someone take what we currently have scheme wise and just make it better. We're going to require changes in players and philosophy regardless if we get a new DC. I just don't know why one earth you'd want to take our best player and make him stop doing what makes him good.
     
  9. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I'll wait for the minute when we know Capers will be back..Forum will implode
     
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  10. NorthWestCheeseHead

    NorthWestCheeseHead Cheesehead

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    6 posts in a topic strictly about retooling the D before Capers' name is mentioned outside of the OP. That has to be a new record.

    I have no opinion on this topic though, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to tooling a roster to fit schemes.
     
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  11. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Well, since there's no "we" about it, it's a pretty moot question you have there, but to boil it down... no, I don't believe Capers would ever switch to a 4-3. It merely opens the door to the idea that perhaps a 4-3 DC might not be as out of the question as it would seem at first thought.
     
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  12. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Hey, at least it's fun to contemplate until that sad announcement is made, right?
     
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  13. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Right now Matthews is more or less a one-trick pony (as much as I hate to say that), although it's a heck of a trick. A guy like Lovie Smith could only make him better. If there's one thing he knows, it's how to utilize linebackers.
     
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  14. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I agree with that. He is a pass rush specialist that is really good at what he does. He isn't bad against the run or in coverage but they never let him doe either as he is just bringing the heat every play. Maybe there is more that he can do.
     
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  15. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I've always wanted to find out. And that doesn't mean he couldn't still be our primary blitzer from either position on passing downs. Right now teams know he's coming 70% of the time, so he's always accounted for. If he's only coming 20-25% of the time, then you never know when he's coming and he could find himself unblocked fairly frequently. Could be one of those "less is more" things.
     
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  16. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    If we do get Lovie we'll have the same complaints bears fans had last season. "the defense is predictable"
     
  17. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Walden is not a DE. Neither is Moses. You'd want Perry and probably Neal or Daniels at DE. Raji, Pickett and Worthy are individually too good to pile into one position. You'd want 2 of those 3 guys for your DTs. Probably Raji and Pickett at first and eventually Raji and Worthy. When you have two big 325+ pounders at DT in a 4-3, it becomes awfully difficult to run up the middle. Remember the Williams boys in Minnesota? You didn't run at those guys.
     
  18. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    They had no offense. That defense won games on its own by defending and by scoring. Lovie also hates all the crap that comes with being a HC. He hates the media, he probably hates thinking about the offense. If he were allowed to relax a bit and get in his defensive comfort zone he would probably get more creative as well.
     
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  19. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Keep in mind, Bear fans find any excuse to complain. They were 5th in yards allowed and first in defensive points. Their problem hasn't been defense, it's been their offense... specifically, the QB position.
     
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  20. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    Who would be the 3 technique? That is the cornerstone of a lovie defense. Tommie Harris was it when they were elite, i think sapp did it in Tampa. Raji could do it if a fire were to be lit under his ***.
     
  21. NorthWestCheeseHead

    NorthWestCheeseHead Cheesehead

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    Draft for that position in case he doesn't pan out in the 3-Technique, maybe.
     
  22. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Thought he played DE at Dal, my bad. Switch him and Matthews, and Add Jones To the OLBs. Moses DID play DE at Tulane, so yeah he kind of is.
    Neal was projected to DT coming out, and Daniels was a DT in college. They don't exactly fit the 4-3 DE.
    RUN STOP? I thought the whole point of going 4-3 was to get pass rush!!! Really it depends on your scheme, I went Vanilla, you seem to have gone more Heavy.
     
  23. PackFanNChiTown

    PackFanNChiTown Bear Fan's Bane

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    They set those records against weak teams, how did Lovie's D do against the elite teams they played? Did their D do any better against the Niners? Did they stop the Pack? Seattle's last scoring drive?

    I do not believe Smith is the answer, even if we do go 4-3.

    They started to fall apart at the end. Our entire offseason is based on one question: "What do we need to do to beat the 49ers?" Is a 4-3 better suited to stop Kaepernick? Wilson? etc?

    The single biggest challenge of a 4-3 is finding TWO DE's who can pass rush. We had one with Kampman but never found his counterpart. Do we have one on the roster now? Not a "maybe," but someone you truly feel could generate the heat against the O-lines we will be facing? Is there another in the draft that we could reasonably expect to acquire? If not, is there a 3-4 LB who could generate the heat from the outside to compliment Matthews? (Based of course on whether or not the DC would actually rush more than three).

    Can we defend against the Niners/Seahawks/Redskins with a 3-4 if it were run by someone else with other players?

    I'm not a very good scheme guy but those are the MMQB questions that come to mind...
     
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  24. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Matthews would not be able to rush the passer. I like how you guys could assume he would be great as a MLB . It would be the same risk as making kampmam stand up. Otherwise clay would be our other DE which is not fine.
     
  25. Pokerbrat2000

    Pokerbrat2000 Opinions are like A-holes, we all have one.

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    I have never liked having both Raji and Pickett on the field at the same time in a 3-4. Never has made sense, never will (IMO). They are both huge slow bodies, providing very little pass rush or ability to get outside when the RB or QB goes that direction. If you want both on the field at the same time, bring back the 4-3 and let them play inside. If this means goodbye to Capers so be it. Capers may have a great mind, but he seems to be a deer in the headlights when adjustments and corrections are needed during the game. 2010's highly ranked defense seems like more of an asterisk for Capers (aided by a large number of turnovers). The defense doesn't need a player overhaul, it needs a scheme/coaching overhaul.
     
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