Would a 4-3 really require that much retooling?

[NorthWestCheeseHead]

post was moved from other thread, and is no longer relevant to the current thread. I would like to keep the + rating though.

 

[757Niner]

Hey, at least it's fun to contemplate until that sad announcement is made, right?

Now I know I'm not around here much but I don't understand all disdain for Capers. Two years ago he could do no wrong. Now I know in light of last weekend's results, some feel he didn't gameplan or make adjustments but that's not really on him. Greg Roman and JH made conscious effort to conceal our pistol stuff for the playoffs....so teams wouldn't have a lot of film on it and wouldn't be prepared for it. People think we've been running CK like that all year but we haven't. Only inside the red-zone or him just scrambling away from pressure. And even then, there was very few pistol, more basic rurudimentary read option stuff. So I'm not sure how much blame I would give to Capers in that respect.

As a outsider, this my take. You've never found a accpetable replacement for Jenkins. You added a lot of bodies there, but none had the impact Jenkins had. He was a terror back in 2010. I wanted him in a Niner unit when he was a free agent. You lost alot when he was allowed to walk. Then there's Raji, who IMO, has not taken the next step in his development. He actually seems like he regressed. Those two guys right there were the main cogs upfront. And the trenches is where it all starts defensively. Its like a domino effect from there. Guys upfront don't play well, LBs aren't free to shoot gaps and press the pocket. No pressure means your CBs have to hold up longer.

And I shouldn't have to bring up injuires around here. We lost Justin Smith for 3 weeks and most Niner fans thought the sky was falling. Its hard to stay consistent when you can't stay healthy. But the inury I think you guys are still reeling from is Nick Collins. He tied everthing together on the back-end for Capers. A good FS is just as hard to find as a good QB....real talk. Collins was very good. You tie all those circumstances and events together and you are where you are. So again, I don't think there's any thing Capers could have done more. He isn't in charge of personnel and he isn't the head trainer. And I think McCarthy understood this and made the right move in retaining him.

 

[HyponGrey]

Now I know I'm not around here much but I don't understand all disdain for Capers. Two years ago he could do no wrong. Now I know in light of last weekend's results, some feel he didn't gameplan or make adjustments but that's not really on him. Greg Roman and JH made conscious effort to conceal our pistol stuff for the playoffs....so teams wouldn't have a lot of film on it and wouldn't be prepared for it. People think we've been running CK like that all year but we haven't. Only inside the red-zone or him just scrambling away from pressure. And even then, there was very few pistol, more basic rurudimentary read option stuff. So I'm not sure how much blame I would give to Capers in that respect.

As a outsider, this my take. You've never found a accpetable replacement for Jenkins. You added a lot of bodies there, but none had the impact Jenkins had. He was a terror back in 2010. I wanted him in a Niner unit when he was a free agent. You lost alot when he was allowed to walk. Then there's Raji, who IMO, has not taken the next step in his development. He actually seems like he regressed. Those two guys right there were the main cogs upfront. And the trenches is where it all starts defensively. Its like a domino effect from there. Guys upfront don't play well, LBs aren't free to shoot gaps and press the pocket. No pressure means your CBs have to hold up longer.

And I shouldn't have to bring up injuires around here. We lost Justin Smith for 3 weeks and most Niner fans thought the sky was falling. Its hard to stay consistent when you can't stay healthy. But the inury I think you guys are still reeling from is Nick Collins. He tied everthing together on the back-end for Capers. A good FS is just as hard to find as a good QB....real talk. Collins was very good. You tie all those circumstances and events together and you are where you are. So again, I don't think there's any thing Capers could have done more. He isn't in charge of personnel and he isn't the head trainer. And I think McCarthy understood this and made the right move in retaining him.

How does that saying go, "It only needs to go on film once?"

Thus why I blamed Trgovac (our DL coach) for a while.

As for Collins, some guys you just can't replace. Thompson is out personally doing legwork at the Shrine though.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

Now I know I'm not around here much but I don't understand all disdain for Capers. Two years ago he could do no wrong. Now I know in light of last weekend's results, some feel he didn't gameplan or make adjustments but that's not really on him. Greg Roman and JH made conscious effort to conceal our pistol stuff for the playoffs....so teams wouldn't have a lot of film on it and wouldn't be prepared for it. People think we've been running CK like that all year but we haven't. Only inside the red-zone or him just scrambling away from pressure. And even then, there was very few pistol, more basic rurudimentary read option stuff. So I'm not sure how much blame I would give to Capers in that respect.

The read option and pistol are ANCIENT offenses. Teams have running these offenses or a variation of these offenses forever. Kapernick ran the same offense at Nevada. Houston (college), Oregon, the 2011 Carolina Panthers, 2011 Denver Broncos and 2012 Washington Redskins all run the read option and pistol offense. If Capers wasn't aware of the read option, the possibility of the read option being run or have an idea of how to stop the read option, it is his fault.

 

[HyponGrey]

The read option and pistol are ANCIENT offenses. Teams have running these offenses or a variation of these offenses forever. Kapernick ran the same offense at Nevada. Houston (college), Oregon, the 2011 Carolina Panthers, 2011 Denver Broncos and 2012 Washington Redskins all run the read option and pistol offense. If Capers wasn't aware of the read option, the possibility of the read option being run or have an idea of how to stop the read option, it is his fault.

How long ago was it that Ault invented the Pistol? I forget

 

[Forderick]

If you look a the 3-4s that are excelling right now(for the most part) the Niners, the texans, the ravens, all have a DE who is the complete package and a menace. Justin Smith, JJ Watt, and Haloti Ngata.

Who do the packers have to fit that role?

The NFL goes in cycles, and with the resurgence of the running game in a lot of the playoff teams this year, and the fairly good defences in the playoffs as well, it isn't that shocking the packers aren't playing anymore. They didn't run the ball, and played horrible defence.

The packers are too soft and finesse to beat the remaining teams in the playoffs, while i think a switch back to the 4-3 isn't the best option, but hiring a new DC, and maybe spending some money on a DE in free agency(if there is one available) and/or drafting a player in the mold of the 3 mentioned is this post.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

How long ago was it that Ault invented the Pistol? I forget

I get it... While the "pistol" offense is relatively new, the "read option" has been around forever. Regardless, Capers should have been prepared for it. This whole idea of "the 49er's didn't run Kapernick the last two weeks of the year to make people forget he could run" is ridiculous.

 

[757Niner]

I get it... While the "pistol" offense is relatively new, the "read option" has been around forever. Regardless, Capers should have been prepared for it. This whole idea of "the 49er's didn't run Kapernick the last two weeks of the year to make people forget he could run" is ridiculous.

That's not what I said. We hadnt run CK that much...designed runs, as the starting QB, all year. And I'm sure Capers knew he would see some designed runs but there were some tweaks we made with the blocking, personnel and shifts. Our running game is extremely diverse. There is no way one team can prepare for everything in a week. And I'm sure Capers and staff did go over read option stuff. CK was no mystery before last Saturday. But ultimately players have to make plays. The players shoulder some of that responsibility also. I saw your players in perfect position to make some plays, and they did. I also saw some plays where your guys were confused and undiscplined too. It only takes one or two of those plays to go slightly awry to get gashed by a guy like CK. But let's not act like you didn't stop some of those runs for minimal gains either. And while we're at it, let's give CK some credit too. He had the camera man faked out a couple of times as well. Its much harder to stop than it looks. Especially from a guy who spent his entire college career running it. Joe Webb can't prepare you for that.

 

[HyponGrey]

That's not what I said. We hadnt run CK that much...designed runs, as the starting QB, all year. And I'm sure Capers knew he would see some designed runs but there were some tweaks we made with the blocking, personnel and shifts. Our running game is extremely diverse. There is no way one team can prepare for everything in a week. And I'm sure Capers and staff did go over read option stuff. CK was no mystery before last Saturday. But ultimately players have to make plays. The players shoulder some of that responsibility also. I saw your players in perfect position to make some plays, and they did. I also saw some plays where your guys were confused and undiscplined too. It only takes one or two of those plays to go slightly awry to get gashed by a guy like CK. But let's not act like you didn't stop some of those runs for minimal gains either. And while we're at it, let's give CK some credit too. He had the camera man faked out a couple of times as well. Its much harder to stop than it looks. Especially from a guy who spent his entire college career running it. Joe Webb can't prepare you for that.

Actually what hurt us most were his scrambles. Discipline is incredibly important in those cases, especially in a fire zone where any little mistake causes big damage.

 

[HyponGrey]

If you look a the 3-4s that are excelling right now(for the most part) the Niners, the texans, the ravens, all have a DE who is the complete package and a menace. Justin Smith, JJ Watt, and Haloti Ngata.

Who do the packers have to fit that role?

The NFL goes in cycles, and with the resurgence of the running game in a lot of the playoff teams this year, and the fairly good defences in the playoffs as well, it isn't that shocking the packers aren't playing anymore. They didn't run the ball, and played horrible defence.

The packers are too soft and finesse to beat the remaining teams in the playoffs, while i think a switch back to the 4-3 isn't the best option, but hiring a new DC, and maybe spending some money on a DE in free agency(if there is one available) and/or drafting a player in the mold of the 3 mentioned is this post.

Remember how we drafted Worthy to be that guy? Remember how he wasn't? He was way too raw, and missing this offseason won't help. Those guys don't grow on trees, they grow on the field after years of work. I'm looking forward to seeing Daniels improve right now, there's a reason he went in after Wilson went down while Worthy was out.

 

[GreenBlood]

Remember how we drafted Worthy to be that guy? Remember how he wasn't? He was way too raw, and missing this offseason won't help. Those guys don't grow on trees, they grow on the field after years of work. I'm looking forward to seeing Daniels improve right now, there's a reason he went in after Wilson went down while Worthy was out.

Like you said, it takes a few years, and I still believe Worthy can and will be that guy.

 

[HyponGrey]

Like you said, it takes a few years, and I still believe Worthy can and will be that guy.

His main challenge is how different our system is from what he was in at MSU. Missing an offseason will put his development a year behind. He does have potential though.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

From yesterdays coaches comments, it sounds like Capers isn't going anywhere. Thus, the 3-4 is here to stay as well. Getting 3 starting linebackers back off the IR will help the defense considerably. As will the seasoning of of our secondary. IMO the glaring weakness are the 3 players up front and how they are being used. Raji and Pickett SHOULDN'T be on the field at the same time....unless it is a goal line stand. Two big slow bodies may clog up part of the line, but it affords no pressure on the QB and opens up way to many running lanes "around the clog". IF Capers and the 3-4 is here to stay, then the front 3 need an overhaul with at least one top notch DE added.

 

[HyponGrey]

From yesterdays coaches comments, it sounds like Capers isn't going anywhere. Thus, the 3-4 is here to stay as well. Getting 3 starting linebackers back off the IR will help the defense considerably. As will the seasoning of of our secondary. IMO the glaring weakness are the 3 players up front and how they are being used. Raji and Pickett SHOULDN'T be on the field at the same time....unless it is a goal line stand. Two big slow bodies may clog up part of the line, but it affords no pressure on the QB and opens up way to many running lanes "around the clog". IF Capers and the 3-4 is here to stay, then the front 3 need an overhaul with at least one top notch DE added.

Supposedly we did that last year

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Supposedly we did that last year

Who knows how Daniels, Worthy and Neal will pan out. But even if one of them turns into a stud, we still need another (if Pickett and Raji aren't on the field at the same time). I know TT won't go the free agency route, so lets hope our first rounder can fill the void and right now! Imagine the Packers defense with JJ Watt, Raji and Jared Allen (I think I just wet myself)

 

[HyponGrey]

Who knows how Daniels, Worthy and Neal will pan out. But even if one of them turns into a stud, we still need another (if Pickett and Raji aren't on the field at the same time). I know TT won't go the free agency route, so lets hope our first rounder can fill the void and right now! Imagine the Packers defense with JJ Watt, Raji and Jared Allen (I think I just wet myself)

Neal is the worst run defender on the team. Daniels is a rookie and he gets it more than Neal. Worthy will be a problem next year, but once he has that second offseason things should pan out. Eventually...