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Who should start at DE opposite Daniels?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Eli Haugen, Apr 23, 2015.

  1. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    Jones is not doing bad. I think Guion was a major reason our defense looked so good last year though. Peppers more than anything. Mathews in the middle, allowing Perry and Neal to play more. And Dix filling the hole at safety. All big moves that made a big difference.

    But considering we lost Raji in the pre-season. There was a potential to flop IMO. Guion took a couple games to warm up. As did the whole defense. But when he did, he filled Raji's shoes very nicely. Stayed healthy luckily. I think he is a force of nature that would fit very nicely opposite Daniels, and next to Raji...

    Jones has shown some flashes. And he has all the skills of a first round pick. But he just hasnt had the impact I like to see from a starter. I think he would be MORE productive coming in fresh, after Daniels or Guion pounded them like a wrecking ball. I believe Aldon smith was a rotational guy that blew guys up, coming in fresh. Then he blew guys up on a full time basis. (right before he blew up his career) maybe not the best parallel...

    Reminds me of KGB back in the day. As a young guy, he came in as a back up, and burnt the blockers. Had like 9 sacks in 3 games or something crazy, as a back up I believe... Wasnt long before he was a starter. Then his impact started to slip. Towards the end I considered him a liability as a starter. Couldnt stop the run. and couldnt pass rush effectively being beat up all game by guys 50+ pounds bigger than himself.
     
  2. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    Dude, I think you broke the forum
     
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  3. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    JJ Watt

    ....couldn't resist
     
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  4. Ace

    Ace Cheesehead

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    *headdesk*
     
  5. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Jones. Time to show he's worth a first round pick and Guion is a NT.

    PFF actually had Jones rated as one of the better pass rushing 3-4 DEs in the NFL last year. Smaller sample size but Jones produced pressure, per rush, as often as Fletcher Cox and Wilkerson.
     
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  6. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Datone Jones was terrible against the run in his limited snaps though. I´m fine with him rushing the passer in subpackages but he has to significantly improve against the run.
     
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  7. Ace

    Ace Cheesehead

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    I still have very high hopes for Datone. That being said this is definitely a make or break year for him. He has the tools and I believe the football IQ to be a very good player, it's up to him to put it all together. Perry looks and has always looked lost out there, I don't see that out of Datone. We'll see
     
  8. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Perry is way better defending the run than Jones though. There´s no denying none of them has lived up to the expectations of being a first round pick though. The Packers should have never drafted Perry in the first place with him being a way better fit for a 4-3 defense.
     
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  9. Ace

    Ace Cheesehead

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    No question about it, I guess my point is, you could tell pretty early on Perry was going to be just a guy, situational pass rusher at best. I feel Datone has a higher ceiling just simply by watching him, not that he'll ever be dominant because I don't believe he ever will be but a core guy.
     
  10. Pack-12

    Pack-12 Cheesehead

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    I think Guion would make a good fit at DE, we also have Boyd. Jones will still see a good amount of snaps at DE but his best is playing inside in nickel and getting after the QB.
     
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  11. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Given the roster as it stands today pending the draft and the outcome of the Guion suspension decision, a couple of significant disclaimers at this point, I expect the base D line to be Daniels-Raji-Guion which accounts for about 30 - 35% of the snaps in this defense.

    Guion is serviceable as NT, but he's not a true 2-gap player. He's actually better suited to 5-tech in the run game than playing over the center.

    It should also be observed that the Packers were quite happy with Guion and from all indications were teed up to give him a multi-year deal until he got busted. At the same time, they brought back Raji to play the nose. You have to figure they intend to give both of them a fair share of snaps, and Daniels-Raji-Guion base line-up makes too much sense from a run-stopping perspective and reflects the Packer commitment to the two players. Assuming Raji is revitalized, a big if, this group also provides decent run-to-pass transition skills.

    If Guion gets a suspension, which you'd figure he would, the interim replacement might be Jones or Boyd in base D.

    Looking at the possibilities for the two 3-tech DTs in nickel, the other 65 - 70% of the snaps, it looks again to be work by committee and where I would expect most of the rotations to occur.

    Daniels is a given, but he can't take every snap; his 63% snap count from last season looks to be optimal if not a little heavy. Other than Daniels, Boyd Jones would the guy you'd want to step up in that role. This is his third season, 29 games under his belt, without the "second year jump"...if he's going to justify his draft status, it's now or never. Guion and Raji have played there, Raji the main man in some past seasons, and should be taking snaps there again. Peppers did some work at 3-tech; Neal too on occasion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
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  12. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Right now, I presume it would be Guion or Jones based the opponent or scheme decisions.

    Guion is a little oversized, but it could work out not unlike 2010 with Raji on the nose and Pickett at LDE. I don't know if he has the right skillset to play end, but there's no harm in trying him there. While all of our defensive linemen are kinds to tackles, there are nuances. In offensive linemen analog, maybe he's more of a guard who could survive at right tackle, but never make it at left tackle.

    Jones...I want him to succeed. He's got the right body type. Long, lean (if 285 can be called "lean"), and strong. More pass rush than is typical for the position, but kind of sucks at the leverage game, ie, defending the run. It's possible that he just needs more time to adjust to this version of the 3-4--maybe he always had an OLB at UCLA helping with certain run fits.

    A lot of doing the job is practice and understanding. Neal in 2013 was a lot bigger than Perry. But Perry set a better edge than Neal. Why? Neal had been an interior linemen his whole career. "Outside contain" might as have been "cover the tightend down the seam." It just wasn't something he had to do before. Perry has been a defensive end his whole career. He understands where to put his hands to keep his outside arm free and get the job done.

    With Jones, it could be something "that simple." Get the technique down and he should grow into the role. He's managed to hurt his ankle twice now. Probably slowing down his development.
     
  13. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I agree with HRE's Daniels-Raji-Guion in the base once Guion returns from the expected suspension, but I see Jones' main role to be one of the DTs in the 2-4-5: That's where he lined up most often last season.
     
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  14. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I guess you meant to say Datone Jones there. I don't expect a lot of pass rush out of Boyd.
     
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  15. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Have to cut Daniels and trade for Watt and Suh since our 3-4 can't work without dominate ends...

    In seriousness, I'd like to see Jones given another shot to show he's more than a pass rusher.
     
  16. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I was critical of the Perry pick because of scheme fit when it happened, and I've seen little to change my mind since.

    I feel compelled to make a couple of comments as a marginal Perry defense.

    First, he's pretty good holding the edge in the run game. That's worth something. Then again so did UDFA Frank Zombo in 2010.

    Perry has a good bull rush. Same with Zombo, who chipped in 4 sacks in the Super Bowl year in rotation with Walden, the same sack count as Perry's season high in 2013 in rotation.

    Now that I've gotten the damning with faint praise out of the way, I'll get to the aspect of Perry's play I continue to find perplexing. About once per season I've seen him blow off the line, show outstanding lean attacking the edge, leave the OT flat footed, and getting to the QB on time. Why not more?

    First, I'm reminded of a Capers comment from a couple of years back where he stated his dislike for his OLBs running wide around the pocket, perhaps intending to send a message to Matthews at the time. He demands pocket contain discipline from his OLBs. I don't know what he thinks about inside swim moves where a stunt or DB edge blitz is not drawn up, but I have some idea, even if Matthews is not always compliant.

    Second, I'm reminded of Jason Babin, a #27 pick in 2004. His first 6 seasons with 4 teams were inauspicious. He was a college DE plugged into various 3-4 and then 4-3 schemes with little to show for it. He was an OK player but with the 1st. round tag hanging over his head as a reminder of the disappointment hanging around the locker room. In year 7, he goes to Tennessee where he was told to just put his hand in the dirt and go get the QB, another instance of the "triumph of the uncluttered mind", as he put up 12.5 sacks and then landed a big contract from Philly where he followed up with an All Pro 18 sack season. This story goes to the point of scheme and responsibility fit, and possible affects of the cluttered mind.

    So, where are we now? Lets start with the following link which sums up the story:

    http://www.foxsports.com/wisconsin/story/green-bay-packers-annual-checkup-nick-perry-032715

    I had not previously seen the following quote, a scathing indictment by Moss, and uncharacteristic of Packer coaches who don't often call out players in such a blunt fashion:

    "A month earlier [in June 2014], linebackers coach Winston Moss said, 'Nick Perry, in my book, has done absolutely zero.' That's the type of criticism usually only given for players who have high expectations placed upon them."

    This view goes some ways in explaining the signing of Peppers who took the job Perry was supposed to lock down as a #1 pick. The cloud of disappointment, the constant reminder of a bad decision, the scheme fit issues, and Perry's failure to take up Moss' challenge last season in his 3rd. season, all add up to this being Perry's last season in a Packer uniform.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Thompson has tried to trade him but with the offers, if any, not being worth the embarrassment. Perry should get a second shot in a 4-3.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  17. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    You are correct. Thanks for pointing out that brain f*rt. I'll edit that post. Clearly Boyd does not have to justify his "draft status".
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
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  18. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    The Packers barely play a base 3-4 defense. Capers plays a lot of nickle and dime to go along with other exotic formations with 2 or 1 down lineman. In the base 3-4, I say give Datone Jones another chance. Maybe this is the year it clicks for him.
     
  19. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    The Packers play a 3-4 base defense on approximately 30% of the snaps. I'd rather have Guion or Boyd line up at DE in that formation as both of them are better defending the run than Datone.
     
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  20. Croquet

    Croquet Cheesehead

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    I am very interested to see the impact the new d-line coach has on especially the younger players. His addition could possibly help to flip the switch.

    May even help the older guys to get a new look.
     
  21. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    I wasnt done... :)
     
  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I omitted Luther Robinson in my last post on the subject of D-Line rotation. He's a fairly athletic big man who should have some upside. Fits the base DE profile; could develop into a pocket pusher in nickel. I would not be surprised if he takes snaps from Boyd. He had 65 defensive snaps in 5 games last season, about a 20% allocation, before going IR with a calf injury. There should be a battle for the base DE spot in Guion's presumed suspension absence.

    Robinson is my sleeper pick among the bottom-of-the-roster guys to see meaningful playing time. Barrington was the clear winner last season.
     
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  23. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    True there are guys who come into the NFL, and dominate the trench from day one... But they are rare. From what I seen it takes a good 5+ years of NFL regiment, and training before the big boys enter pro-bowl caliber linemen. I think when Jones has a few more years, he will grow into an every down guy. But now, he should be used for his strength.

    You guys want to start the debate again?:)
     
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  24. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    I thin the Packers paly alot of 2 down linemen, because we dont have a productive 3rd.....
    Hyde's phenomenal play will make it harder to find the consistant 3rd down lineman to out produce him. But without Williams, and House, he might be needed other places now.... But im still convinced we have to play the nickel so much because we have better talent in the secondary, than the line. we are compensating for the weakness.
     
  25. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    No.
     
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