Vernon Davis in Green and Gold?

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El Guapo

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He won't risk future success with precarious cap moves to increase the chances for a single season and having to rebuild afterwards though.
...and that is my point. Obviously winning the Super Bowl is one of the top priorities but it is not the primary priority and TT will not sacrifice the future. Bringing in Davis would be subject to that same test. If it benefits both objectives then he will kick the tires.
 

7thFloorRA

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About that roll over cap space....doesn't he always have around 7+ mil left in cap space each year that he rolls over? Its going to be increasingly harder to get guys like Cobb to take those lower contract offers when you sit on some of the money and then never use it and continually roll it over. Spending 2.8 of this rollover money may just save some money later on when you offer low contracts to other players and use this to justify it.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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I know TT values draft picks, but IMO if you look back at our past 6/7 round picks, you aren't losing much by trading one for someone that may just be that missing piece a Super Bowl bound team needs. Yes, I know Starks, Crosby and Barrington were all 6/7 round picks.

Is Vernon Davis that guy? Not sure, sounds like his knee is keeping him from playing, so probably not.

If the Defense wasn't playing so well, the offensive shortcomings might look like more of a problem to some. But it's no secret that something just isn't quite right on the offense right now. Maybe its such a minor hiccup and you leave well enough alone. Maybe Adams coming back will help. Maybe the offense will work it out on their own. However, if I am TT, I am pulling AR into my office and saying "What do you need right now to get us to the Super Bowl?"
 
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7thFloorRA

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I don't really even want Davis. If they go get someone the why not get someone relevant and good. Kick the tires on Travis Kelce. He should be a RFA this year if not an UFA on his rookie deal. I would do a 4th for him in a second.

Actually he appears to be on a 4 yr deal and under contract next year for 675K or so. It might take quite a little bit more than a 4th to get a cheap young stud like that.

Ok...here is my deal for them. 4th rd pick and Casey. I would rather see Rollins and Gunter play anyways. Lets do this Chiefs!!!
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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After 10/28 it won't matter, Trade deadline will force the Packers to make changes within or with Street FA's and those pickings look pretty thin. If TT feels the Packers are a WR away from being complete or in the event of an injury, he better make a move in the next 12 days. I would really hate to see the Packers not make the Super Bowl due to an offensive short coming, just because TT wants to hold onto that coveted later round pick while carrying over some extra $$.
 
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TJV

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About that roll over cap space....doesn't he always have around 7+ mil left in cap space each year that he rolls over? Its going to be increasingly harder to get guys like Cobb to take those lower contract offers when you sit on some of the money and then never use it and continually roll it over. Spending 2.8 of this rollover money may just save some money later on when you offer low contracts to other players and use this to justify it.
I understand what you’re saying but I really don’t think negotiations work that way. I’d be shocked if the Packers spending about $3M rather than rolling it over into next years cap ever comes up in the conversation. Much more likely IMO is the agent saying, my client deserves the same contract as player X and Ball says, no we value him more like player Y. And the fun continues as they go back and forth regarding all the variables involved until they come to agreement. Or not.

Whether or not Davis is a worthy candidate, generally regarding trading for a vet: There’s a packersnews story from September 18th that talks about the Packers cap situation next year. As has been the case since early in Thompson’s tenure, their cap situation is very healthy. From the article:
$11.689 million under this year’s cap, which is fifth most in the league. … A report on ProFootballTalk.com estimated the NFL’s cap could go from about $143 million this year to $160 million. That’s a huge leap. According to OverTheCap.com, the Packers have about $123 million in cap obligations for 2016, so they’ll have a little more than $35 million in cap room plus whatever they carry over from this year.
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sp.../17/packers-salary-cap-healthy-ever/72370780/

I have no idea how close that guess of how much the cap will increase is. The article goes on to say there are 16 UFAs next year, it only names 12: Daniels, Crosby, Raji, Neal, Perry, Starks, Guion, Hayward, Quarless, Barclay, Taylor, and Kuhn.

The article goes on to say in the recent past Thompson hasn’t extended contracts as much as he has in the past, but 4 core starters will be in the final year of their contracts: Lacy, Sitton, Lang, and Bakhtiari. If the cap does indeed go up as much as PFT anticipates, they’ll have a lot of room available. But one of the reasons their cap situation remains so healthy is they “pay as you go” instead of pushing cap hits out into the future.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Trading for Davis after the Packers bye week would result in a cap hit of $2.8 million for Davis. While the move wouldn't result in any additional cap hit after this year the team would have approximately $2.5 million less to roll over into the 2016 season. With a lot of core players hitting free agency over the next two years I don't think that would be a smart move.
You took the words out of my mouth. Before the first season of cap carryover (2011 to 2012), when cap was use-it-lose-it each season, any cap laying around in reserve screamed for in-season moves.

Then there's the question of what Davis would add to the equation for this season.

First, in this topsy turvey world of overblown preseason expectations followed by what-have-you-done-for-me-this-week disappointments, Rodgers' actual value is overlooked. He drops one ball and commits a penalty in the span of a couple of plays and certain parties want to kick him to the curb.

People who expected Rodgers to be some kind of seam-buster did not understand in the first place the kind of player he is. He's a good hands guy (that drop notwithstanding), a good short-route runner with red zone value. His blocking, which was somewhere in the neighborhood of "bad" up through the early 2015 preseason has improved quite a bit in just a handful of weeks...I'd grade him now as satisfactory. He's not going to pancake DEs, but he's getting out and getting on people. Given his progress, he may have more upside as a blocker.

Lets consider Davis. First, he's always been at best an indifferent blocker. He's not a guy you would want to see at H-back in the backfield. You can run Rodgers out on the field and the defense doesn't know if he will line up in the backfield, in-line or in the slot...you're not signaling power run, off-tackle run or pass intention by his presence in the huddle. Davis presents more limited versatility.

Further, who can say Davis is still a seam buster? The last couple of years he's been out of shape, perceptibly fat in fact, and demonstrating nothing close to the vaunted 4.40 speed of his youth. Has anybody here seen him play this year and noted whether he's dropped weight and whether he's running away from anybody?

And then consider the demanding and discriminating QB. By the time the QB and the TE get in sync, if it happens at all, the season may be over.

In short, I wouldn't be so sure he'd add anything even if he was free.
 

Croak

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Are you guys like me? I think TT has conditioned me to like the young raw talent over the old salts. I used to think that a player like Davis could really add to our team. Nowadays, when I see something floating around like this, I think, nah, stick with the kids and see what they can do. Peppers was a nice add because we didn't really see any potential out of the kids we had a LB. But I'd like to see what our young TE's can do.
 

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I don't see VD coming on board to replace RR. I am more concerned with nobody usable behind him. Quarless is functional, but I'd like to see more out of the TE. I don't know what Davis has to offer this season though.
 

El Guapo

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We are going to get Quarless back since he's on boomerang IR. We just added another TE to the practice squad. This entire discussion is moot.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I understand what you’re saying but I really don’t think negotiations work that way. I’d be shocked if the Packers spending about $3M rather than rolling it over into next years cap ever comes up in the conversation. Much more likely IMO is the agent saying, my client deserves the same contract as player X and Ball says, no we value him more like player Y. And the fun continues as they go back and forth regarding all the variables involved until they come to agreement. Or not.

Whether or not Davis is a worthy candidate, generally regarding trading for a vet: There’s a packersnews story from September 18th that talks about the Packers cap situation next year. As has been the case since early in Thompson’s tenure, their cap situation is very healthy. From the article: http://www.packersnews.com/story/sp.../17/packers-salary-cap-healthy-ever/72370780/

I have no idea how close that guess of how much the cap will increase is. The article goes on to say there are 16 UFAs next year, it only names 12: Daniels, Crosby, Raji, Neal, Perry, Starks, Guion, Hayward, Quarless, Barclay, Taylor, and Kuhn.

The article goes on to say in the recent past Thompson hasn’t extended contracts as much as he has in the past, but 4 core starters will be in the final year of their contracts: Lacy, Sitton, Lang, and Bakhtiari. If the cap does indeed go up as much as PFT anticipates, they’ll have a lot of room available. But one of the reasons their cap situation remains so healthy is they “pay as you go” instead of pushing cap hits out into the future.
I agree that when Thompson and Ball sit down to consider spending $3 mil on a particular player, a discussion in terms of "if we pay Player X this $3 mil now, that will be $3 mil we can't pay Player Y in the coming offseason" probably doesn't take place very often. Some similar discussion might take place if the those 2 guys play the same position and Player Y will be a free agent the following season.

In any case, in the background, cap carryover and best-guess future cap needs looking out a couple of years are bound to be part of cap management, which can't help but influence particular negotiations indirectly.

Your link notes Thompson has engaged in fewer extensions in recent years, preferring to sweat out the deal for better terms. I don't think it is a coincidence that happened once cap carryover came into play. Since 2011, there's no urgency to use reserve cap late in a season because you're not going to lose it as you would have in 2009 or prior (2010 was uncapped). Further, an agent can't make a compelling argument to a GM that he should use it to sign his guy early instead of losing it as he might have prior to the 2011 CBA.

Cap carryover considerations run throughout the deal making and cap management process, even if indirectly, and at times perhaps directly.

According to Over the Cap, the Packers currently have $10.7 mil in unused cap available for carryover, 8th. highest in the league:

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

I don't believe it is exclusively a byproduct of simply not finding value in free agents, the team's own or someone from outside. It appears to be a conscious attempt to conserve cap.

You listed 4 key free agents coming up after 2016. There are a few more to consider.

Peppers, while it is reasonable to think he'll be done, provides a lot of current production that will need to be replaced...or simply done without. There are several more 2017's to consider who are on par or better than several in the 2016 list:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2017/green-bay-packers/

Some of those guys are restricted, but to paraphrase Goldwater, $2 or $3 mil here and there adds up to real money.

As for the assertion that the Packers are "pay as you go", the facts do not bear that out in the current contracts. That may have been the case several years ago, but it is not the case now. Perhaps the misconception is stuck in 2013 with Rodgers' extension showing relatively flat cap hits in the final 6 years of that contract. Here's the current reality (click on the 2017 tab in the following link):

http://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

The Packers cap commitments for 2017 under current contracts total $103 mil, 10th. highest in the league. Not all of that is guaranteed, so cap space can be increased by cutting certain players or renegotiating others. To garner significant savings in those ways does not bode well; it implies that well paid and productive players currently are perhaps not quite so productive by that time, or they may need to be extended beyond Thompson sell-by date to garner those savings.

As regards league increases in the salary cap, the windfall is largely a chimera. As the cap grows, so do the contracts and thereby the benchmarks for the next contracts. This affect is pronounced with young, talented players, but no less true with lesser players. As surprising Tramon Williams deal might have been this past offseason (or Houses' for that matter), it would have been shocking just a couple of years ago for a player of Williams' age with his best years far in the rearview mirror, or House who never established himself as other an injury reserve, to get that kind of money.

To illustrate the point, lets look at the Daniels situation. The reported $10 mil/year demand would rank him 6th. among 3-4 DEs:

http://overthecap.com/position/3-4-defensive-end

4 of the 6 players above Daniels' reported demand signed those contracts in 2015, Watt's was in 2014, with Campbell the lone pre-cap-expansion deal from 2012. The 2 guys immediately below Daniel's price point signed those deals in 2014. You can't look at a particular 2017 free agent, assume a level of productivity, and plug him into the current scale. In 2 years, with the cap continuing it's expansion, the benchmark scale will have moved up in tandem.
 
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Itkovian

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I don't see it happening, but I would be grateful if you guys would take him off of our hands....
 

Jerellh528

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I don't really even want Davis. If they go get someone the why not get someone relevant and good. Kick the tires on Travis Kelce. He should be a RFA this year if not an UFA on his rookie deal. I would do a 4th for him in a second.

Actually he appears to be on a 4 yr deal and under contract next year for 675K or so. It might take quite a little bit more than a 4th to get a cheap young stud like that.

Ok...here is my deal for them. 4th rd pick and Casey. I would rather see Rollins and Gunter play anyways. Lets do this Chiefs!!!

Haha for Travis Kelce I would give up a 2nd rounder and not think twice.
 

Jerellh528

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I don't see it happening, but I would be grateful if you guys would take him off of our hands....

It would be interesting to see what he could do with Rodgers throwing his the ball over kaep, that's for sure.
 

Itkovian

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It would be interesting to see what he could do with Rodgers throwing his the ball over kaep, that's for sure.

Wouldn't matter TBPH. VD has given up on football. Been building his "brand" the last couple years and it's obvious he's only still here for the paycheck.
 

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Packers aren't doing it ..reason?

Look at last few moves they did for TE... Why do those moves AND still trade for VD

I just love how a "name" is mentioned, all of a sudden TT has to trade for him.
 

Jerellh528

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Wouldn't matter TBPH. VD has given up on football. Been building his "brand" the last couple years and it's obvious he's only still here for the paycheck.

Yeah that's all there is to being a 9er right now. Perhaps a move to a Super Bowl contender will respark his love for the game. Nothing will come of this anyway though. It's a fun little rumor to talk about while we wait for Sunday.:)
 

TJV

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You listed 4 key free agents coming up after 2016. There are a few more to consider.
Just to be clear, I was quoting Dougherty's article. The last paragraph of my post is paraphrasing the article. As for "paying as you go" perhaps he was comparing Thompson's MO to the rest of the league, I don't know. But he's right the Packers have never experienced cap hell under Thompson, save his first season when Wahle and Rivera departed and I don't blame him for either. I agree about the importance of cap carryover: I can just imagine when Thompson first learned it was in place it must have hit him like his fondest memory of Christmas morning times ten.

BTW, I believe the quote you were looking for is, "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money" by Everett Dirksen. He was quite the character who represented Illinois in the House and Senate for 36 years.
 

7thFloorRA

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What is kind annoying about this TE situation is that we are all freaking out over Quarless being out...because aside from that this is the TE position TT put together this year. He was no pass catching freak. He is an H-back blocker who can free himself and get open for 10 yds at most. Hopefully they use Perillo because he can actually go downfield and catch balls.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Just to be clear, I was quoting Dougherty's article. The last paragraph of my post is paraphrasing the article. As for "paying as you go" perhaps he was comparing Thompson's MO to the rest of the league, I don't know. But he's right the Packers have never experienced cap hell under Thompson, save his first season when Wahle and Rivera departed and I don't blame him for either. I agree about the importance of cap carryover: I can just imagine when Thompson first learned it was in place it must have hit him like his fondest memory of Christmas morning times ten.

BTW, I believe the quote you were looking for is, "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money" by Everett Dirksen. He was quite the character who represented Illinois in the House and Senate for 36 years.
Just to be clear, I know you were quoting Dougherty's article. He is mistaken in 3 key respects, as already noted. First, to belabor the point, there are more players of consequence than those listed for 2017. You could see that yourself in the link I provided. Second, belaboring once again, history shows league cap increases get sucked up in the ratcheting of the salary scale. Third, the "pay as you go" observation does not bear up under the facts; let's explore that further.

The 2017 cap commitments in the link I provided illustrates that "pay as you go" is not currently the case. Thompson may have paid as he went at one point, but that started to shift after 2010 beginning with the Hawk contract. Now the Packers' cap commitments for 2017 rank 10th. in league, as I previously noted, making Thompson less of a pay-as-you-go guy than your average GM at this juncture.

If one needs a clue as to why Hawk was on the field past his sell-by date in 2013 and the 1st half of 2014 (if not 2012), one need look no further than his dead cap numbers in those years. We could say the same about Jones. Change came about in a disorderly process past the pain threshold, and you can attribute that in large part to dead cap.

Thompson has avoided cap hell in recent years not because he pays as he goes. It's because none of his big ticket players with large mounds of dead cap have declined, either by injury or indifferent play. Medium ticket players like Hawk and Jones are the exceptions. He was fortunate Raji turned down the $8 mil per year deal before that dreadful 2013 season and the 2014 IR season. There's no guarantee that happy circumstance will persist.

The only long term deal Thompson has signed over the last few years that approximates pay as you go is the Aaron Rodgers contract that is relatively flat from year 2 to its conclusion, as I already noted. The others have been in line with typical NFL practice...defer cap via bonuses, primarily the signing bonuses.

Of the 26 or so 2015 starters (not counting current injury subs) and key rotational players, 11 are under contract for 2017. Adams, Randall, Linsley and Dix will still be cheap players under their rookie contacts (assuming none are extended in the interim). The other 7 are as follows, showing the cap hits in the first years of their current contracts vs. 2015 vs. 2017. You will see that Thompson's "pay as go" reputation is a habit of thought that does not coincide with the reality of the last few years.

Rodgers: 2013 = $12.00 mil; 2015 = $18.25 mil; 2017 = $20.3 mil

Matthews: 2013 = $6.71 mil; 2015 = $12.7 mil; 2017 = $15.2 mil

Cobb: 2015 = $5.35 mil; 2017 = $12.75 mil

Shields: 2014 = $5.56 mil; 2015 = $9.06 mil; 2017 = $12.13 mil

Nelson: 2014 = $5.93 mil; 2015 = $4.60 mil; 2017 = $11.55 mil

Bulaga: 2015 = $3.57 mil; 2017 = $7.85 mil

Burnett: 2013: $3.19 mil; 2015 = $5.13 mil; 2017 = $7.00 mil

Interestingly, what you see among these 11 players is the QB/WR core is intact, a 4-DB contingent is present, and 2/5 of the O-line is present, consistent with the passer rating differential philosophy.

What you also see is an empty front 7 (including all of the current rotational players) except for Matthews, and 3/5 of the O-Line. Throw in a place kicker. That's going to involve a combination of medium-to-heavy spending (Daniels and several others if you want to keep them), some very good drafts, and development of guys already on the roster. And that does not take into account the possibility that any of the above 7 high cap players go into decline.

While those last 2 paragraphs may sound like business as usual, which they are, the starting point is different from what we've seen in the past: heavy cap commitments are already in place for 2017 as a result of abandonment of "pay as you go".

2015 - 2016 represents a window of opportunity with a high risk of closures by 2017, while assuring consistency into 2016 will require some not insignificant spending at the front 7 positions.

And as I said, it was a paraphrase, not a quote, with the dollar amounts representing the one-year cost of restricted free agents. On the other hand, it was Dirksen. So we'll call it even on this irrelevancy.
 
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TJV

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Just to be clear, I know you were quoting Dougherty's article.
If you want to be clear instead of posting, "You listed 4 key free agents coming up after 2016.", you should have posted, "Dougherty listed..." Acting as if what you wrote was clear is just being obstinate. As is this:
On the other hand, it was Dirksen. So we'll call it even on this irrelevancy.
That's great to call it an irrelevancy since you were wrong, but you neglect this tiny tidbit: You brought up this irrelevancy up by paraphrasing the wrong person, not me.

When posters call for us to be more civil, here are two examples where you make that difficult. All the while pretending to take the high road.
 
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Poppa San

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IMO
this tiny tidbit:
did not warrant a correction. In the grand scheme of things, it isn't that important to have every minute detail correct as long as others can understand the idea and there are no legalities involved.
 

TJV

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IMO
did not warrant a correction. In the grand scheme of things, it isn't that important to have every minute detail correct as long as others can understand the idea and there are no legalities involved.
IMO: Then why even bring it up once corrected?
 
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