Tyni's Draft Final Days Thread

AmishMafia

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I don’t agree.

Collins didn’t show much as a pass rusher. He got some sacks, but I don’t see what he did working in the NFL.

He ran at 260, but recently weighed in at 270 for the medical combine.

He ran a 4.67 at his pro day, so he’s probably a 4.75 at the combine or around there. That’s a good number if he’s an edge rusher, but he’s not. He’s a 6’4 ILB that struggles to get off of blocks because he plays so dang high. Vander Esch was a lot better athlete, imo.

I think the best way for me to describe Collins is that he has a throwback ILB body, with the play style of a more modern coverage ILB, but not the athleticism. The concept seems really intriguing, but I just don’t see it working out that well. He’s not super physical. I think he’s a day 2 player, but I wouldn’t take him in GB.
I know that LVE in recent years has been hampered by injuries, but he really excelled immediately when he hit the league. Calling that Collins' floor is quite the statement. I think his floor is Jahlani Tavai.
Funny. Both of you argued with me about Devin White as well.

You also both argued that you don't want pass rushers to sack the QB. That's maybe why you like LVE. He amassed 1.5 sacks in 3 years.

Bwahahaha. Just giving you all some #$%@.

It's all a crapshoot. White was all I thought he would be and maybe more. Mostly I liked his leadership and violence. What Collins has is incredible physicality, athleticism, and smarts.
 

Dantés

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Funny. Both of you argued with me about Devin White as well.

You also both argued that you don't want pass rushers to sack the QB. That's maybe why you like LVE. He amassed 1.5 sacks in 3 years.

Bwahahaha. Just giving you all some #$%@.

It's all a crapshoot. White was all I thought he would be and maybe more. Mostly I liked his leadership and violence. What Collins has is incredible physicality, athleticism, and smarts.

Oof. Amish— why the edge? Aren’t we on good terms?

I didn’t want Devin White because I don’t like spending high picks on players who don’t impact the passing game. And Devin White has been hideous in pass coverage. So I guess we both feel good about that one?

I have no idea what you’re talking about on the second part. I said I don’t want pass rushers who sack the QB? That’s just not true. Do you mean because I liked Gary coming out? If you’re saying that I’m willing to bet on traits, then yeah— guilty as charged.

LVE doesn’t have sack production because he’s not a pass rusher. He’s an off ball linebacker. He had an incredible rookie season and has struggled with injuries since then.
 

GleefulGary

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Funny. Both of you argued with me about Devin White as well.

You also both argued that you don't want pass rushers to sack the QB. That's maybe why you like LVE. He amassed 1.5 sacks in 3 years.

Bwahahaha. Just giving you all some #$%@.

It's all a crapshoot. White was all I thought he would be and maybe more. Mostly I liked his leadership and violence. What Collins has is incredible physicality, athleticism, and smarts.


I’m sorry, what in the living hell are you talking about?

When did I ever say I don’t want pass rushers to sack the QB? You best be coming with evidence, but I know you don’t got it. And yes, using an off ball LB’s sack numbers is excellent usage of talking about pass rushers. Because as we know, they do a lot of pass rushing. Brilliant!

For the record, I liked Devin White as a player. I argued whether he would be worth taking at the position we were in. I would still argue that position. Is he a good player? Yes. Is he a good player at a position that doesn’t add a lot of value? Also yes. Put it this way, a great pass rusher or CB impacts an offense far more than a great LB. Tampa’s defense was not good BECAUSE OF Devin White. He improved their defense, but they were good because of their DL and CB’s. And his leadership? I’m so glad that you are able to quantify the leadership ability of a player you’ve never met, never been around, for a team full of players you’ve never been around, on a team YOU DON’T FOLLOW! Geeeeez. You must be some mastermind on leadership, mate.

Also, if you think Collins has amazing physicality, I would suggest cleaning your tv/computer, cleaning the glasses, and making sure you got the right tape on.
 

GleefulGary

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Furthermore, Devin White isn’t the best LB on Tampa’s team. David runs that team. If you’re looking for their leader (that isn’t Brady), look there.
 

Dantés

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I don’t even think Devin White is good... maybe he will become good, but his net production is a negative.
 

GleefulGary

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Not that I think they’re end all, be all, but PFF’s rating of Devin White compared to Lavonte David is pretty dang accurate. 45 vs 81. Lol.

Rashan Gary is at 67, fwiw.
 

Dantés

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Not that I think they’re end all, be all, but PFF’s rating of Devin White compared to Lavonte David is pretty dang accurate. 45 vs 81. Lol.

Rashan Gary is at 67, fwiw.

They had him at like 84% completion allowed for around 1000 yards on the season.
 

ThePerfectBeard

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Preemptively marrying yourself to anger. Solid.

I'm surprised you didn't smash that take to bits Dante. To say an elite linebacker that can cover and stop the run wouldn't immediately help this team is ridiculous imho. We get beat in the middle quite often and adding someone that could fill gaps and cover tight ends would improve the middle of this defense immensely. Stud linebackers, especially in a 3-4(I know we run a hybrid), are extremely important. That's why all the elite defenses are pretty stacked with linebacker talent.

Now, that being said, historically, this team has not valued the position and I think it shows with our poor linebacker play. I think the best cover linebackers in this class are JOK and Jabril *** though. Jamin Davis does have all the ability to be a freak and Collins for his size, was pretty good in coverage. After years of avoiding the position, there's no way I could be mad if we took any of these guys higher than expected.

DT, OL, ILB, and Corner at this position and we have to be pleased. I know a lot want a wide receiver though.
 

GleefulGary

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I'm surprised you didn't smash that take to bits Dante. To say an elite linebacker that can cover and stop the run wouldn't immediately help this team is ridiculous imho. We get beat in the middle quite often and adding someone that could fill gaps and cover tight ends would improve the middle of this defense immensely. Stud linebackers, especially in a 3-4(I know we run a hybrid), are extremely important. That's why all the elite defenses are pretty stacked with linebacker talent.

Now, that being said, historically, this team has not valued the position and I think it shows with our poor linebacker play. I think the best cover linebackers in this class are JOK and Jabril *** though. Jamin Davis does have all the ability to be a freak and Collins for his size, was pretty good in coverage. After years of avoiding the position, there's no way I could be mad if we took any of these guys higher than expected.

DT, OL, ILB, and Corner at this position and we have to be pleased. I know a lot want a wide receiver though.

The Rams, Ravens, and Steelers had the top 3 defenses in the league. Can you name their LB’s off the top of your head? Ravens and Steelers run a 3-4, btw. And I’ll help you with some of it, Patrick Queen was bad, Devin Bush was hurt.
 

tynimiller

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The Rams, Ravens, and Steelers had the top 3 defenses in the league. Can you name their LB’s off the top of your head? Ravens and Steelers run a 3-4, btw. And I’ll help you with some of it, Patrick Queen was bad, Devin Bush was hurt.

Ladies and gentleman, we have a winner.
 

Dantés

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I'm surprised you didn't smash that take to bits Dante. To say an elite linebacker that can cover and stop the run wouldn't immediately help this team is ridiculous imho. We get beat in the middle quite often and adding someone that could fill gaps and cover tight ends would improve the middle of this defense immensely. Stud linebackers, especially in a 3-4(I know we run a hybrid), are extremely important. That's why all the elite defenses are pretty stacked with linebacker talent.

Now, that being said, historically, this team has not valued the position and I think it shows with our poor linebacker play. I think the best cover linebackers in this class are JOK and Jabril *** though. Jamin Davis does have all the ability to be a freak and Collins for his size, was pretty good in coverage. After years of avoiding the position, there's no way I could be mad if we took any of these guys higher than expected.

DT, OL, ILB, and Corner at this position and we have to be pleased. I know a lot want a wide receiver though.

If he wants to be mad about who we pick, I don't think I'm going to change his mind.

I don't think ILB is as critical a position as you do. I would be open to one if the player was right.
 

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Do Krys Barnes and Rashan Gary play the same position?

Nope. One is inside linebacker and one is outside linebacker. Both are linebackers, no? Show me a defense that fields SIX guys over 260 pounds (3 dline and 3 linebackers) outside the goaline. Not saying it's impossible, just that you better have some of the most amazing athletes and instincts ever outta those linebackers to make it work.
 

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I'm surprised you didn't smash that take to bits Dante. To say an elite linebacker that can cover and stop the run wouldn't immediately help this team is ridiculous imho. We get beat in the middle quite often and adding someone that could fill gaps and cover tight ends would improve the middle of this defense immensely. Stud linebackers, especially in a 3-4(I know we run a hybrid), are extremely important. That's why all the elite defenses are pretty stacked with linebacker talent.

The glorification of the ILB position is fascinating. Packers have a cornerback group with one good starter and a dline with one good player but ILB is the issue...

And those guaranteed great 3 down linebackers you're all excited about? They don't fall to pick 29. I'd be fine if the Packers had a player as good as Devin Bush fall to 29, but that doesn't happen.
 

GleefulGary

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Nope. One is inside linebacker and one is outside linebacker. Both are linebackers, no? Show me a defense that fields SIX guys over 260 pounds (3 dline and 3 linebackers) outside the goaline. Not saying it's impossible, just that you better have some of the most amazing athletes and instincts ever outta those linebackers to make it work.

Sigh.

Gary is an Edge. Preston Smith is an Edge. Most of the time, Z Smith is an edge.

Must we do this over and over again?
 

Dantés

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Nope. One is inside linebacker and one is outside linebacker. Both are linebackers, no? Show me a defense that fields SIX guys over 260 pounds (3 dline and 3 linebackers) outside the goaline. Not saying it's impossible, just that you better have some of the most amazing athletes and instincts ever outta those linebackers to make it work.

The true base defense (meaning, the one they use the most) for virtually every team in the NFL is nickel and features four "on the ball" players-- two on the edge, and two on the inside.

If your "base" happens to be a 3-4 (the 15-25% of the time you're actually using a 3-4), then those edge player might get listed as "outside linebackers," whereas the same exact player would be listed as "defensive end" if your base happened to be a 4-3. The reality is that they're just edge rushers. The distinction is semantical.

So if they happened to draft Collins and use him as an off-ball linebacker, it wouldn't make sense to say that they had three 260 lb "linebackers." They would have two 260+ lb on-the-ball edge rushers (like... basically everyone) and one true linebacker who is indeed very large.

Again, I'm not a big fan of Zaven Collins, but the holdover tendency of calling edge rushers "outside linebackers" from the days when teams actually ran a lot of 3-4 seems to create confusion every year.
 
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If we’re still talking about 260lb Zaven Collins? I think he’s a very good value at #29. I like everything about him. His size sure isn’t a problem, at least it didn’t seem to be at his Pro-day. His times were very close to Clay Mathews across the board (although Leighton V seems to be his go to comparison. His instincts are really strong also and he reminds me a little of a young Clay Mathews.
Joe Barry would turn him into a wrecking ball. Zaven’s biggest weakness is he’s just pretty good at everything. Nothing stands out but all the award he earned last year. Defensive player of the year awards? That’s incredibly gifted.

He has a medium-high floor at nearly everything he does other than shedding second level blocks. He’s very instinctive and he’s got great range and he knows how to finish. He’s what we’ve all been complaining about for years... he can actually wrap and tackle efficiently.
He’s also very disruptive, he’s always around the play reaping havoc, he’s also nimble for a large man. He fields an air ball with the hand finesse of a good DB. An Elite nose for the ball. He rarely misses making a play when given an opportunity. That something Packer fans are not used to even with our current roster. He’s like the LB version of our S Adrian Amos.

It’s ironic. We wouldn’t know what to do with him. But he would know what to do with himself without a concern. I’m going to predict ahead of time.. he’s going to stick out in the NFL. Redshirted too and declared early. He’s not even refined yet and he’s all over making plays
 
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Sigh.

Gary is an Edge. Preston Smith is an Edge. Most of the time, Z Smith is an edge.

Must we do this over and over again?

Sure, let's. You're saying the Packers are playing 5 defensive ends (dline and your two edge guys) that never need to cover anyone? Ignore the semantics and address the idea I'm referencing. You really think 3 "non-dline" that size are going to be able to be on the field in a league that throws the ball as often as they do today? Call their position Dale for all I care, the point is that good offenses will be able to force those 3 to cover at times and I'm not sure it's gonna go well.
 

Sunshinepacker

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The true base defense (meaning, the one they use the most) for virtually every team in the NFL is nickel and features four "on the ball" players-- two on the edge, and two on the inside.

If your "base" happens to be a 3-4 (the 15-25% of the time you're actually using a 3-4), then those edge player might get listed as "outside linebackers," whereas the same exact player would be listed as "defensive end" if your base happened to be a 4-3. The reality is that they're just edge rushers. The distinction is semantical.

So if they happened to draft Collins and use him as an off-ball linebacker, it wouldn't make sense to say that they had three 260 lb "linebackers." They would have two 260+ lb on-the-ball edge rushers (like... basically everyone) and one true linebacker who is indeed very large.

Again, I'm not a big fan of Zaven Collins, but the holdover tendency of calling edge rushers "outside linebackers" from the days when teams actually ran a lot of 3-4 seems to create confusion every year.

So you're saying the packers will field a nickel/dime defense with Clark at DT and Z and Gary playing DE?

And the point in referencing "linebackers" is to emphasize that some of them will need to be in coverage. When you just say "edge rusher" it pretends they'll never be forced to cover anyone.
 

Dantés

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So you're saying the packers will field a nickel/dime defense with Clark at DT and Z and Gary playing DE?

And the point in referencing "linebackers" is to emphasize that some of them will need to be in coverage. When you just say "edge rusher" it pretends they'll never be forced to cover anyone.

Most of them never do need to cover anyone. Only Preston occasional drops and that’s uncommon. Calling them all edge rushers identifies them with their primary role. They don’t “back” the line— they are the line. Devin White gets sent after the QB quite a lot. Should we call him a defensive end?

And what I’m saying is that the Packers and the entirety of the NFL run way more sub (especially nickel and dime) than what is still called “base defense” (whether 3-4 or 4-3). League wide, nickel and dime account for 75-80% of all defensive snaps in recent seasons.

A typical Packers defense in recent years has looked like an even front (four across) with Clark and Lowry inside, both the Smiths on the edge (or one of them and Gary), two linebackers, and five defensive backs, or one linebacker and six defensive backs.
 

Dantés

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Sure, let's. You're saying the Packers are playing 5 defensive ends (dline and your two edge guys) that never need to cover anyone? Ignore the semantics and address the idea I'm referencing. You really think 3 "non-dline" that size are going to be able to be on the field in a league that throws the ball as often as they do today? Call their position Dale for all I care, the point is that good offenses will be able to force those 3 to cover at times and I'm not sure it's gonna go well.

What you’re getting hung up on is the notion that the Packers routinely play three interior defensive linemen. Unless they’re in GL or 3rd/4th and short, they virtually never do that.

They and almost the entire league use *two* interior defensive linemen almost all the time. So what you’re imagining as a five man front is really four.
 

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Most of them never do need to cover anyone. Only Preston occasional drops and that’s uncommon. Calling them all edge rushers identifies them with their primary role. They don’t “back” the line— they are the line. Devin White gets sent after the QB quite a lot. Should we call him a defensive end?

And what I’m saying is that the Packers and the entirety of the NFL run way more sub (especially nickel and dime) than what is still called “base defense” (whether 3-4 or 4-3). League wide, nickel and dime account for 75-80% of all defensive snaps in recent seasons.

A typical Packers defense in recent years has looked like an even front (four across) with Clark and Lowry inside, both the Smiths on the edge (or one of them and Gary), two linebackers, and five defensive backs, or one linebacker and six defensive backs.

You're playing a good team. Packers are on defense, it's 2nd and 7, how effective is a defense featuring three 260+ pound "non- dline" going to be? You say they don't need to cover but if the offense is in a 1/1 set, the defense is going find it difficult not to have at least 2 of those huge "non-dline" being responsible for coverage. If you're saying the Packers are just going to rush 5 players every time, then it's far too predictable and, even worse, quick passers like Brady are going to get rid of the ball before the edge guys even have a chance to get there.

It sounds great as an occasional package but I'm not sure why you're drafting a guy in the first round that's going to really limit your team's defensive options on most plays. Unless your want to just play Clark by himself on the dline, but then teams are just going to run all over the Packers.
 

ThePerfectBeard

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The Rams, Ravens, and Steelers had the top 3 defenses in the league. Can you name their LB’s off the top of your head? Ravens and Steelers run a 3-4, btw. And I’ll help you with some of it, Patrick Queen was bad, Devin Bush was hurt.

Actually I can and I don't need your help. Clearly both the Ravens and Steelers were willing to spend high draft capital to address their inside linebacker position. TJ Watt, Bud Dupree, and Devin Bush are one hell of a trio and the Steelers have been trying to replace Shazier for a long time. They actually signed Mark Barron the same year they drafted Bush in the top 10, which tells you how much they value the position. Vince Williams isn't a slouch either.

The Raven drafted Queen and Malik Harrison last year in the first and third rounds... what does that tell you about how they value the inside linebacker position? Spending two picks in the first three rounds to improve the position... especially when they had literally no receivers. So now, let's look at the talent in their entire 2020 linebacker corp: Pernell McPhee, Yannick, Queen, Harrison, Judon, and Bowser... that's a lot of draft capital on linebackers.

The Saints were actually ranked 2nd last year... Zack Baun(74th overall), Demario Davis(3rd round), Alex Anzalone(3rd round)... now they play a 4-3 so technically, you'd expect their front four to be the high draft capital players, which they are, but still, there's no 5th-udfa in their starting linebacker corp.

The Rams do seem to be filled with 5th to UDFA guys, but that defense as a whole took a step backwards last year. They also benefit from having the best defensive lineman in the league as well as an incredible secondary.

Washington plays a 4-3, but they have two 2nd round picks playing MLB along with an incredible front 4.

The 49ers were beat to **** last year, but another team with one of the games best ILBs.

Now, one that you completely left off, but became the best defense in the league once they got everyone healthy, the Bucs... I'd say having Lavonte David, Devin White, Deone Bucannon, Kevin Minter, and Shaq Barrett counts as investing in your linebacker corp.

But I digress
 
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