The Khalil Mack thread -- now a Bear for $155million

[Dantés]

No it is not. He is required by contract to supply his services. That is what a contract is.


Why do you think this a league without guaranteed contracts? That is a fallacy. He has every right to negotiate a 100% guaranteed contract. Why do very few players do that? Because it is a huge risk for the owners so the balance is a smaller dollar value. It's why most player go for only a partially guaranteed contract. It's the players choice, but given the option of $6M/yr with $2M guaranteed or $4M fully guaranteed, they take the former and not the latter.

Mack’s services are no more guaranteed than the contracts. He has the right to stay off the field if he wants to. If he chooses to play, the contract dictates his compensation. The contract cannot compel him to take the field. That’s insane. By your logic, a player should not be allowed to retire.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Mack’s services are no more guaranteed than the contracts. He has the right to stay off the field if he wants to. If he chooses to play, the contract dictates his compensation. The contract cannot compel him to take the field. That’s insane. By your logic, a player should not be allowed to retire.

It's really not that hard to understand that a player skipping mandatory practices is violating his contract.

A player retiring while still having a valid deal is a completely different story with the team possible having the chance to recoup part of a signing bonus handed out at the time the contract was agreed on.

 

[Dantés]

It's really not that hard to understand that a player skipping mandatory practices is violating his contract.

A player retiring while still having a valid deal is a completely different story with the team possible having the chance to recoup part of a signing bonus handed out at the time the contract was agreed on.

It’s really not that hard to understand that a player has a right to skip mandatory practices and incur a fine if he feels it’s in his best negotiating interest.

Am I doing this right?

 

[GleefulGary]

Somehow every other major sport can handle guaranteed contracts, but the NFL can’t?

Do you know what guaranteed contracts (eventually) do? They lead to smarter, better contracts for the team. And it leads to smarter teams succeeding. And I have no issue with Mack. The team will do what’s best for the team, but the player can’t do that for himself? The team invests in the player, but the player doesn’t invest in the team?

In a league where there is a short term playing career, no complete guaranteed contract, they have set themselves up for holdouts! If I knew my value was higher than what I was earning, and I earn my wages in a dangerous environment, then damn right I’m gonna hold out.

But shoot...these guys should feel privileged to even earn $1 million a year, right? So why care about them? Only care about the team. Bah. Welcome to supply/demand. Idiots.

 

[Dantés]

Somehow every other major sport can handle guaranteed contracts, but the NFL can’t?

Do you know what guaranteed contracts (eventually) do? They lead to smarter, better contracts for the team. And it leads to smarter teams succeeding. And I have no issue with Mack. The team will do what’s best for the team, but the player can’t do that for himself? The team invests in the player, but the player doesn’t invest in the team?

In a league where there is a short term playing career, no complete guaranteed contract, they have set themselves up for holdouts! If I knew my value was higher than what I was earning, and I earn my wages in a dangerous environment, then damn right I’m gonna hold out.

But shoot...these guys should feel privileged to even earn $1 million a year, right? So why care about them? Only care about the team. Bah. Welcome to supply/demand. Idiots.

You speak with such tactful grace.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

It’s really not that hard to understand that a player has a right to skip mandatory practices and incur a fine if he feels it’s in his best negotiating interest.

Am I doing this right?

Now you're just being a **** about it instead of admitting that you're wrong.

Let me try to explain it to you once again, this time staying with football.

Your reasoning is the same as if you would argue that Mack is allowed to jump offside before the snap with the referee being allowed to penalize him for it.

You fail to understand that because of league rules he's actually not allowed to do it though and therefore a five-yard penalty will be applied.

 

[Dantés]

Now you're just being a **** about it instead of admitting that you're wrong.

Let me try to explain it to you once again, this time staying with football.

Your reasoning is the same as if you would argue that Mack is allowed to jump offside before the snap with the referee being allowed to penalize him for it.

You fail to understand that because of league rules he's actually not allowed to do it though and therefore a five-yard penalty will be applied.

Excuse me Captain, but that was just a sarcastic parroting of exactly how you’ve been talking to me about this issue all along. If that makes me a ****, look in the mirror. If you can’t handle the disagreement, I can’t help you.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Do you know what guaranteed contracts (eventually) do? They lead to smarter, better contracts for the team. And it leads to smarter teams succeeding. And I have no issue with Mack. The team will do what’s best for the team, but the player can’t do that for himself?

In a league where there is a short term playing career, no complete guaranteed contract, they have set themselves up for holdouts! If I knew my value was higher than what I was earning, and I earn my wages in a dangerous environment, then damn right I’m gonna hold out.

The average salary per season would significantly drop if contracts would be fully guaranteed in the NFL with most deals being front loaded to assure a career ending injury wouldn't be as devastating for a team's cap. Of course that would result in players holding out at the back end of such contracts. But I guess for some reason you would be fine with that as well.

In addition I don't understand why a player holding out while outperforming his contract is fine but a team shouldn't be allowed to approach a player underperforming about a pay cut.

BTW there are players holding out in the MLB, NBA and NHL as well, all while having fully guaranteed contracts.

 

[Dantés]

The average salary per season would significantly drop if contracts would be fully guaranteed in the NFL with most deals being front loaded to assure a career ending injury wouldn't be as devastating for a team's cap. Of course that would result in players holding out at the back end of such contracts. But I guess for some reason you would be fine with that as well.

In addition I don't understand why a player holding out while outperforming his contract is fine but a team shouldn't be allowed to approach a player underperforming about a pay cut.

BTW there are players holding out in the MLB, NBA and NHL as well, all while having fully guaranteed contracts.

Who said that? I know I didn’t.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Excuse me Captain, but that was just a sarcastic parroting of exactly how you’ve been talking to me about this issue all along. If that makes me a ****, look in the mirror. If you can’t handle the disagreement, I can’t help you.

I can handle disagreement perfectly fine as well as admitting when I'm obviously wrong. It seems you aren't able to do the latter for some reason though.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Who said that? I know I didn’t.

I wasn't replying to one of your posts.

 

[Dantés]

I wasn't replying to one of your posts.

My question was “who said that?” I didn’t note JJ saying it either.

 

[Dantés]

I can handle disagreement perfectly fine as well as admitting when I'm obviously wrong. It seems you aren't able to do the latter for some reason though.

Disagree!

 

[Deleted member 6794]

My question was “who said that?” I didn’t note JJ saying it either.

I haven't seen anyone mentioning it in this thread but have heard people arguing that way on several occasions.

 

[Dantés]

I haven't seen anyone mentioning it in this thread but have heard people arguing that way on several occasions.

Ok, well just to jump in, I think it’s every bit as valid for a team to ask a player to take a pay cut as it is for a player to hold out for a raise. How those attempts play out comes down to negotiation and leverage, but I don’t see anything wrong with the attempts.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Ok, well just to jump in, I think it’s every bit as valid for a team to ask a player to take a pay cut as it is for a player to hold out for a raise.

The team isn't allowed to withhold payments for a player underperforming which would be the equivalent of a player not showing up because he feels underpaid though.

 

[AmishMafia]

Mack’s services are no more guaranteed than the contracts. He has the right to stay off the field if he wants to. If he chooses to play, the contract dictates his compensation. The contract cannot compel him to take the field. That’s insane. By your logic, a player should not be allowed to retire.

Again, all contracts are at least partially guaranteed. Retirement is one of the many standard clauses in an NFL contract and is an option to every player. Retiring is within the terms of a contract.

 

[Dantés]

Again, all contracts are at least partially guaranteed. Retirement is one of the many standard clauses in an NFL contract and is an option to every player. Retiring is within the terms of a contract.

So then what are you saying when you say he’s required by the contract to supply his services? What does that mean? Should he be compelled by law to take the field?

 

[Dantés]

The team isn't allowed to withhold payments for a player underperforming which would be the equivalent of a player not showing up because he feels underpaid though.

A team can fine, cut, or suspend a player, costing them game checks in some circumstances. That, to me, is the counter to the hold out.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

A team can fine, cut, or suspend a player, costing them game checks in some circumstances. That, to me, is the counter to the hold out.

The team isn't allowed to fine or suspend a player without any reason or because they feel he hasn't lived up to his contract.

 

[AmishMafia]

So then what are you saying when you say he’s required by the contract to supply his services? What does that mean? Should he be compelled by law to take the field?

Okay, I will end this now. You have mixed up civil vrs criminal issues. I am very familiar with contract law as it is a career function and have been in court numerous times. Believe me or not regarding these issues, I am moving on.

 

[Dantés]

Okay, I will end this now. You have mixed up civil vrs criminal issues. I am very familiar with contract law as it is a career function and have been in court numerous times. Believe me or not regarding these issues, I am moving on.

Okay, then you know more about me than this issue. Can you explain to me what you mean?

 

[Dantés]

The team isn't allowed to fine or suspend a player without any reason or because they feel he hasn't lived up to his contract.

Right, but they can in the case of a hold out. Which is why I was saying it’s a counter to a hold out.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Right, but they can in the case of a hold out. Which is why I was saying it’s a counter to a hold out.

That's true. But if you support players holding out you should on the other hand be in favor of teams having the option to pay players less money if they have underperformed.

 

[Dantés]

That's true. But if you support players holding out you should on the other hand be in favor of teams having the option to pay players less money if they have underperformed.

I’m in favor of them trying to get the best deal for them as I am in favor of the player trying to get the best deal for him. I’m not in favor of either party being able to change the contract at will.