The Bright Side Of Things

Sunshinepacker

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I chose the only example I need. SF is a team that functions in similar capacity to GB (actually technically vice versa) and has had recent success. More success than GB with a lesser QB.

SF smothered KC in the regular season 2019. They then went 13-3 and beat us down like a dog if you recall? That was Aaron Rodgers who took a meltdown. The score never fully represented how outmatched we were. SF didn’t even throw the ball was it like 8-10 times? That’s embarrassing and yes I watched that game and it was awful.

SF then went on to the SB and led 20-10 until well into quarter 4! It wasn’t the SF QB to blame for allowing 2 TD’s inside 6 minutes. They came very close to SB champions with a far lesser QB than Rodgers.

I never said QB wasn't important. I’ve argued the importance of the QB position many times. But there’s more ways to skin a cat. Having a balanced team (leaning Defense if anything) is more important than a lopsided Team

You sidestepped the question. A simple yes or no is fine

Is Garoppolo a great QB?

Nope. I'll note that you too avoided my question about the recent Super Bowl winners but I understand, it undermines your point.

Edit: The above is a little harsh. I'll just point out that building an elite defense is very difficult. Finding an elite QB is also very difficult. However, once a team has an elite QB it's much easier to build a great team with a mediocre defense and elite QB. Again, for an elite defense you need about 3-4 elite players between the dline and secondary as well as another 3-5 very good players. That's difficult to put together whereas you can field an elite offense with one elite QB and 1-2 other elite guys on offense.
 
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GreenBaySlacker

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I’m not against the QB position. But you have to understand that our system can function very well with a game managing QB.
A QB that can go through the progressions with poise and confidence. A QB that can scramble and make plays when things break down and a QB that can threaten with a deep ball. GB believes they have that guy already on the Roster at $37mil less annually.

I like you talked about the D needing multiples. I agree. We rarely have the draft AND monetary capital to attain those players. Which means we pick n choose our battles. But $37 million annually (or more based on reports) is a massive amount of $$ That’s 4 Adrian Amos types added to our Defense! Then add multiple top 50 overall types from the draft. Think shout that. Plus we could bargain for a veteran Defender in trade. You could have 4-5 guys by next draft to beat out our current defenders. Upgrade for Lowry, upgrade for Martin, upgrade for Sullivan. Those guys could shift to ST and pump it with talent.
Typical greenbay strategy....

Greenbay strategy session:

Oh we have a first ballot hall of fame QB with a good 5 years left in the tank???

Oh well we can be pretty good over compensating for a below average game manager QB... We will build a all pro line. ,stack 3 RBs and keep drafting first round defense..... we will do that....

THATS what teams with chitty QBs have to do, to get to 8-8...... over compensate.

We choose to do that. They have to do that. We choose to do it.
Spoiled rotten
 
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Oh we have a first ballot hall of fame QB with a good 5 years left in the tank???
If Aaron Rodgers would work with our FO maybe we could afford to pay him and continue our quest. But he wants league high $ and a long contract. We do not have the capital to keep pushing these contracts outward. There’s a little thing called $$$$

You act like there’s no monetary ceiling and that’s just not realistic. It’s more than just philosophical ways of accommodating players and integrating a new system. There’s limitations to what teams can do financially.

As an example. Let’s use your scenario:
Ok you’ve signed a soon to be 39yr old Rodgers at $41mil annual X your 5 seasons until he’s 43 years old (plus you’ve pushed parts of multiple contracts into 2022 calendar)

Now.
Which 3 premier FA contract players out of these are you prepared to cut next season to get back break even?
Jaire Alexander?
ZaDarius Smith?
Davante Adams?
Robert Tonyan?

or easier yet. Which 1 do you want to keep in 2022? We’ll hit 2023 next


Also. What is your temporary backup strategy plan at QB if your 40yr old suffers a season ending injury?
 
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captainWIMM

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Naw. I thought Tampa did a pretty good job I thought. 26 points all day at home? for the top Offense? nothing to be overly proud of.

How did Rodgers look on the road? He looked like Jordan Love playing power 5 Alabama (wink wink) and with a brand new staff and team. They run us into the dirt truth be told. Even #12 gets anxious when he’s harassed all day taking sacks.
Look at both Tampa games that’s your recipe, he lost both games, the first totally embarrassed and then they came into GB and backed it up, just to be sure. Certainly not an unbeatable QB IMO.

All QBs have weaknesses.. look at how they chased Mahomes around like a feral cat. He’s one of the best QB this decade and he was completely and thoroughly flustered. 9 points? I’d rather have a top performing D and consistent and efficient that doesn’t turn the ball over VS. Aaron Rodgers with a lopsided team and stinky ST unit to top it all.
It’s nothing personal I like Aaron Rodgers, but he’s not a spring chicken anymore.

Give me a stellar veteran Defender in trade. Then let’s select +4 1sts and 4-2nds (including ours over 2 drafts) and some $ capital to both lock our D best players down and maybe add a couple good FA’s from outside over 2 seasons ?
We’ll should conceivably have a Defense that we have not seen since 2010. In addition we play Denver like every 4 years and of Rodgers goes AFC? It’s very very unlikely we even see him in a SB from a statistical viewpoint.

We got to quit acting like Aaron Rodgers is invincible and being all timid. He’s human and he’s very beatable and we’ve been struggling to get it done even when he’s on absolute fire. Is he going to get substantially better than 48td’s? Even match it?
Or is it just possible he regresses a little , regresses a lot, gets hurt, retires unexpectedly, etc.. what then? We got 40+ tied up in one man who’s possibly not even playing? Not very smart

I'm definitely in favour of building an elite defense as well but like Sunshine pointed out that's more difficult than holding on to an elite quarterback. In addition you might want to realize that the Bucs had the third best scoring offense in the league last year as well while the Rams, who featured the best defense in the league, weren't able to move past the Packers in the playoffs largely because of an average offense.

Teams need to be well rounded and excel in all three phases to have a legit chance at winning the Super Bowl and the Packers definitely don't achieve that by getting rid of the MVP.

I chose the only example I need. SF is a team that functions in similar capacity to GB (actually technically vice versa) and has had recent success. More success than GB with a lesser QB.

SF smothered KC in the regular season 2019. They then went 13-3 and beat us down like a dog if you recall? That was Aaron Rodgers who had a meltdown. They were being kind to allow 20 points and that game was over by quarter before the 4th quarter started. The score never fully represented how outmatched we were. SF didn’t even throw the ball was it like 8-10 times and we were a #2 seed! That’s embarrassing and yes I watched that game and it was awful. I’m a Packer fan but that doesn’t mean I need to conceal the truth when asked.

SF then went on to the SB and led 20-10 until well into quarter 4! It wasn’t the SF QB to blame for allowing 2 TD’s inside 6 minutes. They came very close to SB champions with a far lesser QB than Rodgers.

I never said QB wasn't important. I’ve argued the importance of the QB position many times. But there’s more ways to skin a cat in the format of a MLF game type philosophy. Having a balanced team (leaning Defense if anything) is more important than a lopsided Team.

You sidestepped the question. A simple yes or no is fine

Is Garoppolo a great QB?

The point remains that the Niners didn't win the Super Bowl in 2019 though.
 
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Teams need to be well rounded and excel in all three phases to have a legit chance at winning the Super Bowl and the Packers definitely don't achieve that by getting rid of the MVP.
We’re not fishing to remove our star QB.
He’s removing himself by saying he doesn’t believe in this team or philosophy. Then he’s tipping the scales by asking for a massive contract long term contract. Maybe he gets it maybe he doesn’t. I’m an odd cat fine either way as long as WE (our FO) thinks they can be flexible and not send everyone else packing AND make it clear that we will do what’s in the best interest for the GBP with or without #12.

But you saying GBP cannot be successful without Aaron Rodgers is absolutely false. I know that’s tough to hear and I love Aaron Rodgers he’s been great. But he’s not the only path to victory and he’s holding us hostage

The point remains that the Niners didn't win the Super Bowl in 2019 though.
Neither did the GBP if I recall?
The argument we are debating isn’t that the 49ers didn’t win the SB. the argument is :
CAN A TEAM BE SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT AN ELITE QB IN THE MLF SYSTEM?! I don’t care about the rest of the league. I care about OUR system

You are both sidestepping the argument in an effort to defend our star QB, which I’ve never once said couldn’t be successful. While I appreciate your loyalty, our star QB has not been more successful than SF as of late.
The modern game of Pro Football is evolving. The O system we are playing in is a QB friendly system that CAN function at a high level without an ELITE QB.
Rodgers play in 2019 was not elite and look at how good we were. It’s the entire reason we’re in this mess
 
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mradtke66

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But you saying GBP cannot be successful without Aaron Rodgers is absolutely false. I know that’s tough to hear and I love Aaron Rodgers he’s been great. But he’s not the only path to victory and he’s holding us hostage

I don't think anyone doubts that teams can win without Aaron Rodgers. Teams have thus far won 54 of them without Rodgers.

The contention is your simple solution of give up Aaron Rodgers for an Elite defense. Simple is not easy.

If finding and retaining an elite quarterback to carry your team to winning the Super Bowl is as difficult as climbing Mt. Everest, building and retaining an equivalently transcendent defense is climbing Mt. Everest, skiing to the bottom, and not dying. Twice.

(Hyperbole analogy presented for humor. I have no good way to accurately quantify the difficulty of each task.)
 
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The contention is your simple solution of give up Aaron Rodgers for an Elite defense. Simple is not easy.
I never meant to imply building a top rated D is simple. But for those getting ready to commit Hari Kari it can be done and we already have 75% of the personnel to do it.

This false notion that our future is doomed is absolutely unsupported by 1 shred of evidence beyond fear and subjective negativity about the situation with our QBs riff with our decision to do what’s logical. Any GM would’ve gotten his replacement this year or next snd if I can figure that out ahead of time? I’m quite sure Rodgers corner could. This playing martyr is all smoke n mirrors, he knew good n well they’d possibly look at QB. His play sucked at $39million. That butted right up to the draft and he was in full decline.

The fact remains that our FO was in preparation for Rodgers successor. He had several injury seasons and several non-elite seasons recently. Rodgers had back to back seasons with his lowest #2,#3 worst in his 12 starts in career comp % (62.3,62.0) AND #1 and #2 worst passing Td’s in a full season (25,26) and his 3rd and 5th LOWEST Rating (97.6,95.4) in 12 years as a starter.

Was the FO supposed to ignore that?

Brian Gutenkunst made a mistake thinking Rodgers was possibly in decline. But that mistake was using the information in front of him. Average + QB play
Not 1 person in here would’ve guessed Rodgers would rebound to MVP level +

This whole crybaby act stuff was all to make himself look good and our FO look bad. To him it’s all about pointing fingers when he doesn’t get his way.
He doesn’t want to be wrong and this is what he does to his own family (our team) when he doesn’t get his way. Bradshaw was right, it’s terrible look for him and he still represents the face of our franchise.

If we resign Rodgers at 40+ Mil? he better retain near his 2020 production (he couldn’t even get us to a SB at MVP level) on a consistent, yearly basis.
 
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mradtke66

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I never meant to imply building a top rated D is simple. But it can be done and we already have 75% of the personnel to do it.

Perhaps, but that next 10-25% is potentially the most difficult thing to achieve in roster building. Law of diminishing returns and all that.

This false notion that our future is doomed is absolutely unsupported by 1 shred of evidence beyond fear and subjective negativity about the situation with our QBs riff with our decision to do what’s logical.

It's not doomed, but nor is future success assured. A great quarterback is the single most impactful person on the roster. Life after Rodgers is on a spectrum. Maybe Love is a HOF player. Maybe he's the new Dalton line. Maybe he's the first in a long quarterbacks that we churn through over the next 20 years as we do our best Browns impression. The most likely, from a pure numbers point of view, is our next quarterback is average or worse, as the league mostly has average or worse quarterbacks in it.


The fact remains that our FO was in preparation for Rodgers successor. He had several injury seasons and several non-elite seasons recently. Rodgers had back to back seasons with his lowest #2,#3 worst in his 12 starts in career comp % (62.3,62.0) AND #1 and #2 worst passing Td’s in a full season (25,26) and his 3rd and 5th LOWEST Rating (97.6,95.4) in 12 years as a starter.

Was the FO supposed to ignore that?

Never said they should have

Brian Gutenkunst made a mistake thinking Rodgers was possibly in decline. But that mistake was using the information in front of him. Average QB play and (only found using hindsight) Not 1 person in here including yourself would’ve guessed Rodgers would rebound to MVP level +

You're trying to argue a few different points here and it's all over the map. You're trying to argue 2 or 3 different points in your reply and I'm really trying to get your thesis. All I can really grok is that you're angry and feel like yelling.

Yes, with Rodgers being in his late 30s, his time with us is short. Never stated otherwise. I DID anticipate a down year 1 with a year 2 improvement with MLF. There is historical evidence for this, most recently with Matt Ryan and the Shannahan Offense. Year 1 -> Year 2 was a huge improvement.

Yes, the Shannahan/MLF offense might keep us from bottoming out, but again the safe bet is Rodger's successor will be a significant downgrade. Hell, even though we would have been wrong, the safe bet was that Rodgers was going to be a significant downgrade to Favre.

If anything, if he (Love or whoever replaces Love) is just good enough for us to hover around .500, we probably are doomed. We're unlikely to suck bad enough to get that high pick to put us back in the driver seat....
 
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All I can really grok is that you're angry and feel like yelling.
I’m not angry I’m sorry if you took it that way.
With what I’ve witnessed I have strong convictions that might come across as intense to you. But I’m not angry with you.

As a student of character, I am disappointed in Aaron Rodgers. He sure makes it difficult to like him. I don’t give him a pass because he’s a movie star like many of you. He throws a pigskin around and makes $40mil and he’s blessed and he’s rarely thankful for the grace on his life. I’ve defended him many times but he’s getting worse with age IMO. He acts like he’s surprised that we’d go get a QB, but his level of play had been substandard for a number of years. Kinda hard to deny that, but he’s pretending like nobody sees it. I didn’t realize how much he had declined for several seasons until after the Love pick and it’s glaring.

It’s my opinion the Love pick lit a fire under him.
I’ve witnessed that several times in my business career and it’s amazing how your numbers improve when your job is at stake. He should be thanking them !

As you said the QB position holds the most prominence. I think Love propelled him out of his competing nature. Possibly even more than a day 1 WR would’ve helped. Just my opinion

I would’ve loved a WR. But I’m not the GM or his staff. I’m just doing my best to learn through Gute’s actions is all, he knows a ton more about team building than me (but I’m a better communicator ;))
 
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mradtke66

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As a student of character, I am disappointed in Aaron Rodgers. He sure makes it difficult to like him. I’ve defended him many times but he’s getting worse with age IMO. He acts like he’s surprised that we’d go get a QB, but his level of play had been substandard for a number of years. Kinda hard to deny that. I didn’t realize how much he had declined until after the Love pick.
It’s my opinion the Love pick lit a fire under him. As you said the QB position holds the most prominence.

I'm not entirely he's demonstrated poor character. We cannot confidently say that the Love pick was taken as a slight OR if the pick drove him harder. It is certainly possible, and the idea that competition improved him is perhaps even probable, but thats kind of where it ends. Many a great athlete has taken offense and come out stronger. That isn't a bad thing.

As far his decline, yes, but also no.

His stats were down, yes. 2016, he willed us into the playoffs. 2017, he started strong and broke his collar bone. 2018 there was the knee and the end of McCarthy. 2019 was his first year in a new offense which has historically taken veteran quarterbacks a year to get up to speed. 2020 he's back and better than ever.

His decline is most likely health related and I don't begrudge them taking a quarterback. Love may or may not end up being the guy, but if only as insurance with an older starter, it isn't a braindead decision.
 
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His stats were down, yes. 2016, he willed us into the playoffs. 2017, he started strong and broke his collar bone. 2018 there was the knee and the end of McCarthy. 2019 was his first year in a new offense which has historically taken veteran quarterbacks a year to get up to speed. 2020 he's back and better than ever.

I can hear my Dad now ..

“Sounds like lots and lots of excuses.. Son” :whistling:
AND
“NOW GET YOUR SHOES OFF THE DAMN COUCH!!”:eek: (Like Red from That 70’s Show)

Just for fun though..
1. do you think a QB who is going to be 40yrs old is more prone or less prone to injury than he was 5-10 seasons ago? How about verses a 22yr old QB?
2. Does a 40yr old QB injury heal faster or slower than a 22yr old?
 
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mradtke66

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Just for fun though..
1. do you think a QB who is going to be 40yrs old is more prone or less prone to injury than he was 5-10 seasons ago? How about verses a 22yr old QB?
2. Does a 40yr old QB injury heal faster or slower than a 22yr old?

This is why I think you're angry and looking to yell--I think you're missing the nuance in my posts :)

To quote myself: His decline is most likely health related and I don't begrudge them taking a quarterback. Love may or may not end up being the guy, but if only as insurance with an older starter, it isn't a braindead decision.
 
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This is why I think you're angry and looking to yell--I think you're missing the nuance in my posts :)

To quote myself: His decline is most likely health related and I don't begrudge them taking a quarterback. Love may or may not end up being the guy, but if only as insurance with an older starter, it isn't a braindead decision.

THIS IS YELLING !!!

this is being calm cool and collect

This just being normal :tup:

 

captainWIMM

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Then he’s tipping the scales by asking for a massive contract long term contract.

You're purely speculating about Rodgers asking for a massive extension. Actually there are reports that the Packers offered him one but he declined.

But you saying GBP cannot be successful without Aaron Rodgers is absolutely false.

I have never mentioned anything about the Packers not being able to be successful without Rodgers. But not having an elite quarterback makes it significantly more difficult.

Neither did the GBP if I recall?
The argument we are debating isn’t that the 49ers didn’t win the SB.

You are both sidestepping the argument in an effort to defend our star QB, which I’ve never once said couldn’t be successful.

Actually you were the one replying to another poster suggesting you should take a look at the past Super Bowl champions asking if Garropolo is a great quarterback.

Therefore you're the one sidestepping the argument.

I never meant to imply building a top rated D is simple. But for those getting ready to commit Hari Kari it can be done and we already have 75% of the personnel to do it.

The Packers lack talent on the defensive line, inside linebacker and at cornerback either opposite Alexander or in the slot. Therefore I don't consider them having 75% of the personnel necessary to feature an elite defense.

His play sucked at $39million. That butted right up to the draft and he was in full decline.

Just for the record, Rodgers never had a cap hit of $30 million or more up until the upcoming season.

I don’t give him a pass because he’s a movie star like many of you.

Rodgers doesn't get a pass from me either but it seems many of you ignore the drop-off in performance expected once the Packers move on from him.

1. do you think a QB who is going to be 40yrs old is more prone or less prone to injury than he was 5-10 seasons ago? How about verses a 22yr old QB?
2. Does a 40yr old QB injury heal faster or slower than a 22yr old?

Brady has won two Super Bowls after turning 40, I don't think it's a huge issue at all.
 
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Actually you were the one replying to another poster suggesting you should take a look at the past Super Bowl champions asking if Garropolo is a great quarterback.
The answer to the question I’ve now asked 3X that you want to sidestep is...

NO

Jimmie Garrapolo is NOT an Elite QB. Yet In 2019 he came very close winning a SB and I would call that better success than us being beatdown to the tune of 38-20 with the best QB in the league.
The Packers lack talent on the defensive line, inside linebacker and at cornerback either opposite Alexander or in the slot. Therefore I don't consider them having 75% of the personnel necessary to feature an elite defense.
Well excuse me :whistling:
72%. Thanks for splitting hairs with me. Lol

Just for the record, Rodgers never had a cap hit of $30 million or more up until the upcoming season.
That’s also false. See the 2018 season. It broke an NFL record at that time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtba...ers-2018-aaron-rodgers-leads-with-76-million/
 

captainWIMM

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The answer to the question I’ve now asked 3X that you want to sidestep is...

NO

Jimmie Garrapolo is NOT an Elite QB. Yet In 2019 he came very close winning a SB and I would call that better success than us being beatdown to the tune of 38-20 with the best QB in the league.

I agree that Garropolo isn't an elite quarterback and as mentioned before it's possible to have success without one. It makes it significantly more difficult.

In addition you should take a closer look at how that Niners defense was built.


You obviously don't understand the difference between average salary and cap hit.
 
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You obviously don't understand the difference between average salary and cap hit.
Good point and thanks for revisiting that.
As I pondered that, we’re arguing over something that doesn’t matter anyway because Cap hit has little to do with the value put on a player in a given year. Teams move $ around constantly to stay under budget. They might have a $20mil cap hit one season and $50mil the next (being radical in $ for display purposes) They don’t look a players worth as $20mil in that 1 particular season based on their cap hit.

Why on earth would a player be evaluated or penalized on just the players cap number? .. and that’s exactly the argument you brought that into.

Teams bigger concern are players average annuals payout as it relates to guaranteed money and contract term. Cap numbers are just a shell game and it’s a moving target that teams use for fiscal budgeting.
 
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GleefulGary

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Whether GB is good or not, I’m here to enjoy watching them play for 2-3 hours!

The downside is/will be all of you miserable mopes that think you have some great opinion that needs to be heard. Let’s be honest, we all just like to hear (see?) ourselves talk (write?).
 
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It’s my opinion the Love pick lit a fire under him.
I’ve witnessed that several times in my business career and it’s amazing how your numbers improve when your job is at stake. He should be thanking them !


Yep, Rodgers did admit he would of started this bullsh!t last year but his MVP year
got in the way
 

Heyjoe4

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I chose the only example I need. SF is a team that functions in similar capacity to GB (actually technically vice versa) and has had recent success. More success than GB with a lesser QB.

SF smothered KC in the regular season 2019. They then went 13-3 and beat us down like a dog if you recall? That was Aaron Rodgers who had a meltdown. They were being kind to allow 20 points and that game was over by quarter before the 4th quarter started. The score never fully represented how outmatched we were. SF didn’t even throw the ball was it like 8-10 times and we were a #2 seed! That’s embarrassing and yes I watched that game and it was awful. I’m a Packer fan but that doesn’t mean I need to conceal the truth when asked.

SF then went on to the SB and led 20-10 until well into quarter 4! It wasn’t the SF QB to blame for allowing 2 TD’s inside 6 minutes. They came very close to SB champions with a far lesser QB than Rodgers.

I never said QB wasn't important. I’ve argued the importance of the QB position many times. But there’s more ways to skin a cat in the format of a MLF game type philosophy. Having a balanced team (leaning Defense if anything) is more important than a lopsided Team.

You sidestepped the question. A simple yes or no is fine

Is Garoppolo a great QB?
I think Tampa Bay won the SB with Trent Dilfer, and Peyton Manning was hardly a factor in Denver's last SB win. I'd rather see a balanced team, and a team that can win through its defense. Seems like teams with strong Ds win more championships, the TB/KC game being the most recent example.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I think Tampa Bay won the SB with Trent Dilfer, and Peyton Manning was hardly a factor in Denver's last SB win. I'd rather see a balanced team, and a team that can win through its defense. Seems like teams with strong Ds win more championships, the TB/KC game being the most recent example.

While I realize that Tom Brady has really skewed the stats of winning a SB with or without a stud QB, I have to say I would prefer having a stud QB, pay him a bit more and just be above average in other phases of the game. The Packers didn't miss out on winning Super Bowls in the last 7 or so years because of paying Rodgers too much and not being able to afford other pieces, they missed out because they didn't have above average special teams or defenses. I'm going to put that on personnel and coaching decisions that don't have all that much to do with money.
 

GleefulGary

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While I realize that Tom Brady has really skewed the stats of winning a SB with or without a stud QB, I have to say I would prefer having a stud QB, pay him a bit more and just be above average in other phases of the game. The Packers didn't miss out on winning Super Bowls in the last 7 or so years because of paying Rodgers too much and not being able to afford other pieces, they missed out because they didn't have above average special teams or defenses. I'm going to put that on personnel and coaching decisions that don't have all that much to do with money.

Almost like more money helps you get better players. Crazy idea, huh?
 

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