Playoff picture 2015

adambr2

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100% disagree to the point of this whole thread.... The reason the playoffs exist is to help find out who the best team in the league is. Throwing games in order to get an "easier path" is ridiculous.

You want to be the best, beat the challengers. If you can't you don't deserve it. Sad that this is even a conversation about throwing a game.

I don't know if you guys all competed in sports, and maybe this is my own viewpoint only.... But anytime you have something to play for you play, and you play to win. That wouldn't go over well in most locker rooms either. "Hey guys I don't think we are good enough to beat Seattle, so why don't we rest and take on Washington next week. Sound like a plan? Cool. See you next week."

It's a corrupt way of thinking... And I hope the majority of people wouldn't stand that for that. Who cares if it's a harder road. You want a championship EARN IT.

I don't think anyone is suggesting 'throwing' a game. If resting your starters and playing your backups is throwing a game, teams do it nearly every year in Week 17 and MM himself has done it. There's a big difference between throwing a game trying to get healthy in Week 17 going into the games that matter.

With that said, I get the point that you can't just look at the strategy in a vacuum as a path of least resistance to the Super Bowl. You have to consider the residual effects (How much respect will players lose for a coaching staff that doesn't even want to try to win a division? How bad will the fallout be from fans if they were to treat a Week 17 division title game as an exhibition game? How are they going to actually even pray to turn their offense around in time if they're not going to try to send them out there to work through the issues? )

For those reasons and others, it'll never happen. I just do get the point that if you look at nothing else besides the following games and ignore the other consequences, you do probably have more of a fighting chance @Wash and @Carolina than home vs. Seattle and @Arizona.
 

Un4GivN

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I don't think anyone is suggesting 'throwing' a game. If resting your starters and playing your backups is throwing a game, teams do it nearly every year in Week 17 and MM himself has done it. There's a big difference between throwing a game trying to get healthy in Week 17 going into the games that matter.

With that said, I get the point that you can't just look at the strategy in a vacuum as a path of least resistance to the Super Bowl. You have to consider the residual effects (How much respect will players lose for a coaching staff that doesn't even want to try to win a division? How bad will the fallout be from fans if they were to treat a Week 17 division title game as an exhibition game? How are they going to actually even pray to turn their offense around in time if they're not going to try to send them out there to work through the issues? )

For those reasons and others, it'll never happen. I just do get the point that if you look at nothing else besides the following games and ignore the other consequences, you do probably have more of a fighting chance @Wash and @Carolina than home vs. Seattle and @Arizona.

Never when NFC title is on the line... The only time I have ever heard of someone throwing a game by resting starters if there is absolutely no reason to play. In fact the year the Packers won the super bowl, the Bears played starters with nothing to gain for the whole game. Just to keep the Packers out. Didn't work out in the end, but in my experience that is how players are. Fight if there is any reason at all to fight.

Locked in seeding then yes. Otherwise its a ludicrous idea, with many more implications than resting your starters.

The idea is to win them all, if you don't you're just another loser. Winning first round or second means nothing. I don't think of last year as some triumph season.
 

P-E-Z

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Now that we have tape on Panthers Seahawks and Cardinals... We can make adjustments. I have hope we can....
 

rodell330

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Now that we have tape on Panthers Seahawks and Cardinals... We can make adjustments. I have hope we can....


I think playing with effort, heart and Avoiding mistakes are what they lacked most against Arizona. I said fifty times before the game if they got behind early it would get ugly...and that's exactly what happened. On top of that mM and his staff got out coached plain and simple.
 

brandon2348

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I'm worried. Couldn't say that last year. Surprise me guys!

You must be logged in to see this image or video!
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I'm worried. Couldn't say that last year. Surprise me guys!

A highlight reel concerns you? Packers could put together one of those, albeit it might only be 45 seconds long if it is offensive highlights from 2015.

I'm less worried about other teams and more worried about the Packers offense. Simply put, if our offense doesn't improve, it really does not matter who we play. Improve our offense and on any given Sunday/Saturday, we can beat anyone.
 
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TJV

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I'm less worried about other teams and more worried about the Packers offense. Simply put, if our offense doesn't improve, it really does not matter who we play. Improve our offense and on any given Sunday/Saturday, we can beat anyone.
I agree except I would say 'improve the offense by A LOT' ... Here's a question - not only for you - when was the last time the offense played well enough to beat "anyone" in (all of) your opinion(s)?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I agree except I would say 'improve the offense by A LOT' ... Here's a question - not only for you - when was the last time the offense played well enough to beat "anyone" in (all of) your opinion(s)?

Agreed....on "a lot" to make it all the way. Hoping/expecting that is another story and I truly don't see it. But if we eliminate/minimize mistakes and penalties that would go a long way.

As far as when this offense last clicked and could have beaten anyone and I assume you mean for 4 quarters......hmmmmm...without looking....K.C. game? MN game wasn't bad, but I think we still had some passing issues against a banged up defense.
 

GreenBaySlacker

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I say we smash who ever gets in our way!!! SMASH THEM!!!!!! SMASH THEMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Un4GivN

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I agree except I would say 'improve the offense by A LOT' ... Here's a question - not only for you - when was the last time the offense played well enough to beat "anyone" in (all of) your opinion(s)?

January 11, 2015 vs the Cowboys :)

KC was ok... But I am not sure I have seen a dominate offense this year at all is my point.
 

Voltron

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I have been thinking about this topic for a while, regarding the idea of Lose to Win. While from a strategic point of view it may make sense, Im not sure I would like this route as a fan. One thing I always hated are teams that throw games to move up in the draft. This would be no different to me. In my opinion we should go into Sundays game to win, and not go into it to lose in order to avoid Seattle. Rodgers did say last season, we were the better team. So lets prove it by not avoidng them. He did say, we will show up when it matters most, so lets prove it. To me its time to see if this is true. So lets go into Sundays game and win the division.
 

milani

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Winning on your home turf is very special to the team and the fans. Lombardi never concerned himself about a particular opponent. His goal was to win each and every game. Otherwise don't play at all.
 

JBlood

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Nobody today wants to hear about Lombardi, but everything he taught in the 60s holds true today--and it shouldn't be ignored. It ought to be the Bible, particularly in Green Bay. Winning was important to him, of course; but he would rip into the team much more after a win if it came in spite of poor play than he would in a loss if the play was to his level of excellence. The latter didn't occur many times, in large part because of the former. I don't see this in the current version of the Packers. MM's praise of his team's "heart" after the lucky win in Detroit is example A. I'd like to see some real heart in a blowout against the Yikes on Sunday.
 

PackerDNA

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Nobody today wants to hear about Lombardi, but everything he taught in the 60s holds true today--and it shouldn't be ignored. It ought to be the Bible, particularly in Green Bay. Winning was important to him, of course; but he would rip into the team much more after a win if it came in spite of poor play than he would in a loss if the play was to his level of excellence. The latter didn't occur many times, in large part because of the former. I don't see this in the current version of the Packers. MM's praise of his team's "heart" after the lucky win in Detroit is example A. I'd like to see some real heart in a blowout against the Yikes on Sunday.

I remember Jerry Kramer telling a story (was it in "Instant Replay?) where the Packers had just destroyed the Cowboys something like 56-3 in a pre-season game, and Lombardi was livid in the film room, berating the whole team, running one play several times to show how bad they stunk, just tearing into them on and on. Lee Roy Caffey whispered to Kramer"Who won that game, anyways?"
MM lost me when his response to questions about the team's performance before the AZ game was "I'm tired of the negativity! We're 10-4!"
It's when I became more than 50/50 in the opinion that things have gone stale, and that maybe just getting double digit wins and being in the playoffs every year had become the goal and maybe not winning it all.
 

milani

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I remember Jerry Kramer telling a story (was it in "Instant Replay?) where the Packers had just destroyed the Cowboys something like 56-3 in a pre-season game, and Lombardi was livid in the film room, berating the whole team, running one play several times to show how bad they stunk, just tearing into them on and on. Lee Roy Caffey whispered to Kramer"Who won that game, anyways?"
MM lost me when his response to questions about the team's performance before the AZ game was "I'm tired of the negativity! We're 10-4!"
It's when I became more than 50/50 in the opinion that things have gone stale, and that maybe just getting double digit wins and being in the playoffs every year had become the goal and maybe not winning it all.
What's sad is that yesterday was the Ice Bowl anniversary. Talk about hard to play to perfection. That final drive was not perfect but it showed how their history of practice makes perfect gave them the will to succeed.
 

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I remember Jerry Kramer telling a story (was it in "Instant Replay?) where the Packers had just destroyed the Cowboys something like 56-3 in a pre-season game, and Lombardi was livid in the film room, berating the whole team, running one play several times to show how bad they stunk, just tearing into them on and on. Lee Roy Caffey whispered to Kramer"Who won that game, anyways?"
MM lost me when his response to questions about the team's performance before the AZ game was "I'm tired of the negativity! We're 10-4!"
It's when I became more than 50/50 in the opinion that things have gone stale, and that maybe just getting double digit wins and being in the playoffs every year had become the goal and maybe not winning it all.
Nobody today wants to hear about Lombardi, but everything he taught in the 60s holds true today--and it shouldn't be ignored. It ought to be the Bible, particularly in Green Bay. Winning was important to him, of course; but he would rip into the team much more after a win if it came in spite of poor play than he would in a loss if the play was to his level of excellence. The latter didn't occur many times, in large part because of the former. I don't see this in the current version of the Packers. MM's praise of his team's "heart" after the lucky win in Detroit is example A. I'd like to see some real heart in a blowout against the Yikes on Sunday.
We're of kindred spirit and I'm as nostalgic as the next guy when it comes to Lombardi, a once in a lifetime coach so superior in his profession that the most prestigious trophy in the game is named after him. Whether his coaching style would be an inspiration for today's player culture and the values and attitudes they possess would make for an interesting discussion. Another time, perhaps.

Many posters have focused on the symptoms of this season's failures and their observations have been accurate. This or that player is under-performing; a lack of commitment to the run game and a tug-and-pull between a "balanced" offense and wide-open passing game; injuries to key people at inopportune times; personnel decisions and apparent player favoritism that chronically tolerates the mistakes of some players more than others; etc. Personally, when I distill those down it has led me to the same conclusion consistently.

STs have improved. They do not represent the root problem. The defense has also improved, so they're not the cause of this year's struggles, either. At first glance the obvious would appear to point directly towards the players on offense. The root problem goes much deeper than that, however. Their struggles are also merely a symptom of what truly ails this team.

The coaching hierarchy on offense is seriously flawed. That's the underlying problem that contributes to the symptoms that we see on offense from week to week. Because there has not existed a clear, consistent chain-of-command this season it has resulted in the dysfunctional mess that we have been witnessing.

Clements title is the Assistant Head Coach, Offense and he's also the immediate past play caller. What's his primary function now that he's no longer the play-caller or the Offensive Coordinator: high-paid sidekick, close friend and soul-mate confidant of Aaron Rodgers? Edgar Bennett is still the Offensive Coordinator. Alex Van Pelt is the QB coach. Who reports to whom? Who's in charge of what? Try drawing-up an accurate organizational chart representing the functions and responsibilities of this offensive coaching staff. Good luck.

Alex Van Pelt is both QB and WR coach since these assignments have merged. Both position players now share the same coach and combined meeting room. How's that worked out for both positions? Which of the two positions has improved since last season? The answer, of course, is neither. In fact, both have been in serious decline, and that's indisputable whether you're a stat geek or prefer the eye-test method for determining such things. As if that were not problematic enough, back by popular demand is Mike McCarthy who has cannon-balled back into the mix as the once again play-caller. Responsibilities have been displaced, undoubtedly along with pride and confidence.

These coaches are human beings. They have egos. Demotions and hollow titles affect them the same as it would any of us. It directly affects their players, as well, with whom they all must have a professional relationship and respect. Plus, in some cases close friendships have developed. Instead of setting-up all of them for success the McCarthy reorganization has unintentionally caused just the opposite due to its muddled, dysfunctional coaching structure. It must be recognized for what it has clearly produced: an offense lacking in both efficiency and consistency. Has any offensive coach or player enjoyed an improvement in the value of their career stock as this season has progressed? Do you see an offense that is thriving on any level?

McCarthy prefers to retain his coaches and he has a history of denying them the opportunity to interview for better opportunities elsewhere --even anointing them with titles that make them unobtainable for other teams by design. Clements, for example. But after this year's fiasco, who would now seek Clements' services? His age combined with this season's developments may make future advancement all but impossible for him. He no longer has a place even within the Packers' structure. How do you think this affects the morale of good friends Clements and Rodgers? Other members of the coaching staff? Bennett and Van Pelt? That's a daunting problem in itself. McCarthy may have over-thought and over-reacted to last season's disappointing conclusion and we are seeing the results of his knee-jerk reaction to that. He meant well with the reorganization, I'm sure, but a downward spiral has resulted.

I give McCarthy the benefit of the doubt regarding his good intentions for this team in this or any other season. But he deserves to be held accountable for the effect his reorganization has caused to spiral the offense downward this season. Based upon his previous record he has also earned a chance to make things right again unless he stubbornly fails to acknowledge his mistake.

The opportunity for him to facilitate successful corrections has already begun. Whether there is any hope that he can salvage his current coaching and player relationships is about to be ascertained with blunt finality. If not, a disappointing end to this season culminating in several departures from this coaching staff should be anticipated, especially if he's "lost" some members of his staff already. If that has happened then he may be well on his way to losing some of his players, too.
 

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Clements title is the Assistant Head Coach, Offense and he's also the immediate past play caller. What's his primary function now that he's no longer the play-caller or the Offensive Coordinator: high-paid sidekick, close friend and soul-mate confidant of Aaron Rodgers? Edgar Bennett is still the Offensive Coordinator. Alex Van Pelt is the QB coach. Who reports to whom? Who's in charge of what? Try drawing-up an accurate organizational chart representing the functions and responsibilities of this offensive coaching staff. Good luck. Alex Van Pelt is both QB and WR coach since these assignments have merged.
I think you're onto something. Now that McCarthy has taken back play calling duties he is the de facto OC. I suppose that makes Clements assistant OC and Bennett the assistant to the assistant OC. Meanwhile Van Pelt is both QB and WR coach as if there aren't enough coaches to fill those positions. As outsiders we can't know all - or even most - of what goes on at 1265 but from everything I've read and heard I think Bennett has been a very good position coach. As WR coach he could very well have a positive impact on getting the receivers to focus on catching the ball. Van Pelt can concentrate on the QBs.

But I do think there's more that's going on. Rodgers hasn't been his usual accurate self and that's not explained by just Jordy's absence. The injuries on the OL and the poor performance of the WRs in getting open and catching the ball when they do. But the cluster at the top of the coaching hierarchy is also a problem IMO.
 

yooperpackfan

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If that has happened then he may be well on his way to losing some of his players, too.
I'm afraid this is a serious possibility.
Judging from some of Aaron Rodgers actions during the Arizona game:
1. Rodgers gave him a wave off of dismissal, as he returned to the sideline after a 3 and out, when McCarthy was talking to him.
2. When McCarthy belatedly appeared to have removed him from a blowout, and Tolzien was warming up and had his helmet on, Rodgers returned to the field on the next possession.
I'm thinking he has already lost Rodgers.
 

7thFloorRA

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While Washington may be a bad team and an easier win..........I should have tickets if the pack hosts the WC round game.
 

milani

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Likewise for me, although the fellow that sold me the tickets lives in Washington and cannot make it there. How ironic is that? Fate might give him the chance to see the game in Washington instead of Green Bay. Fate might give me the chance to see the game in Green Bay rather than on television from Washington.
 

Raptorman

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Exactly. Eff the North title. That's the problem around GB as it is. They are so concerned with winning the North every year it's annoying. Winning the north should be second tier to winning the SB. They are lucky that Rogers caught that Hailmary in Detroit.
Let me ask you this. Packer throw the game to go to Washington. Vikings beat Seattle and Packers lose to the Skins. You good with that?
 

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I think you're onto something. Now that McCarthy has taken back play calling duties he is the de facto OC. I suppose that makes Clements assistant OC and Bennett the assistant to the assistant OC. Meanwhile Van Pelt is both QB and WR coach as if there aren't enough coaches to fill those positions. As outsiders we can't know all - or even most - of what goes on at 1265 but from everything I've read and heard I think Bennett has been a very good position coach. As WR coach he could very well have a positive impact on getting the receivers to focus on catching the ball. Van Pelt can concentrate on the QBs.

But I do think there's more that's going on. Rodgers hasn't been his usual accurate self and that's not explained by just Jordy's absence. The injuries on the OL and the poor performance of the WRs in getting open and catching the ball when they do. But the cluster at the top of the coaching hierarchy is also a problem IMO.
Unfortunately, there may be no way for McCarthy to undue what's been done without causing even more damage. Unless everyone can sincerely swallow their pride for the good of the order it will not get better without some coaching turnover. As you have so aptly point out, it appears that there are more than enough offensive coaches to go around with positions that probably could be rearranged. Quite a conundrum for McCarthy. He'll need to throw an administrator's Hail Mary to salvage the season and a whole lot more.
 

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