Players with Injury/character/and other concerns.

[Fredrik87]

I'm interested in what the people here think about some of the guys who have red flags but still plenty of potential.

• Willy Gay, LB, Great athlete and player rock solid in coverage and is good blitzer however he got caught cheating a test and once broke his own QB's collar bone.

• Laviska Shenault, WR, A playmaker who was pretty much Colorado's entire offense but carries concerns about his rout running and has had a lot of injuries.

• Netani Muti, G, Great player but again a lot of injuries.

• AJ Epenesa, DE, Good player in college absolutely destroyed Austin Jackson but ran a over 5 second 40 at less than 280lbs.

• Zach Baun, OLB/ILB, Was good at Wisconsin but per pff had zero pressures on bull rushes he will likely have to move inside but he never played there at Wisconsin so that's a concern.

• KJ Hamler, WR, Crazy fast but has a issue with drops.

 

[GleefulGary]

Saahdiq Charles should be here. Very talented, but suspended for 6 games this year.

 

[thequick12]

Saahdiq Charles should be here. Very talented, but suspended for 6 games this year.

Suspended for marijuana, which from what I hear is no longer a concern with the current cba.

Too bad Josh Gordon isn't coming out in this draft hed be a future hall of famer.

 

[GleefulGary]

Suspended for marijuana, which from what I hear is no longer a concern with the current cba.

Too bad Josh Gordon isn't coming out in this draft hed be a future hall of famer.

Colleges let a lot go in regards to marijuana. Ain't no way he got suspended 6 games for just pot. I'm not saying he should be off draft boards, just that you don't get suspended that long for failing a drug test, unless it was like the 10th time, which is an issue.

 

[Dantés]

I have heard that a lot of people, teammates and scouts included, are rubbed the wrong way by Tyler Johnson, WR from Minnesota.

Cheyenne O'Grady, TE from Arkansas, has had all sorts of run-ins with both coaches and the law.

Jordan Elliott has supposedly been pretty immature.

Tipa Galeai was kicked off of TCU for involvement in an assault.

 

[PackFan2]

Laviska Shenault, WR, A playmaker who was pretty much Colorado's entire offense but carries concerns about his rout running and has had a lot of injuries.

Theres character concerns bout Shenault after team interviews (via Charlie Campbell). Tyler Biadasz currently has hip injury and just had shoulder surgery, it's said that some teams had taken him off their board (Tony Pauline).

 

[PackFan2]

I have heard that a lot of people, teammates and scouts included, are rubbed the wrong way by Tyler Johnson, WR from Minnesota.

I heard that too! but I forgot by who.

Edit- it was a report by Matt Miller (I'm not much a fan of).

 

[Dantés]

I heard that too! but I forgot by who.

Edit- it was a report by Matt Miller (I'm not much a fan of).

I heard it from the PFF guys.

 

[AmishMafia]

I'm interested in what the people here think about some of the guys who have red flags but still plenty of potential.

• Willy Gay, LB, Great athlete and player rock solid in coverage and is good blitzer however he got caught cheating a test and once broke his own QB's collar bone.

• Laviska Shenault, WR, A playmaker who was pretty much Colorado's entire offense but carries concerns about his rout running and has had a lot of injuries.

• Netani Muti, G, Great player but again a lot of injuries.

• AJ Epenesa, DE, Good player in college absolutely destroyed Austin Jackson but ran a over 5 second 40 at less than 280lbs.

• Zach Baun, OLB/ILB, Was good at Wisconsin but per pff had zero pressures on bull rushes he will likely have to move inside but he never played there at Wisconsin so that's a concern.

• KJ Hamler, WR, Crazy fast but has a issue with drops.

The least worried about Epenesa. Some players play slower than they time and some play faster. Epenesa plays faster. Much of the 40 is about technique. If you look at his stats:

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/aj-epenesa

He has some explosion based on his broad jump and vertical. His movement skills are also good showing he has quick change of direction. My bigger concern is the bench press. He needs to seriously hit the weights to have an impact at the pro level. I think he will and he will be a stud.

 

[Dantés]

The least worried about Epenesa. Some players play slower than they time and some play faster. Epenesa plays faster. Much of the 40 is about technique. If you look at his stats:

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/aj-epenesa

He has some explosion based on his broad jump and vertical. His movement skills are also good showing he has quick change of direction. My bigger concern is the bench press. He needs to seriously hit the weights to have an impact at the pro level. I think he will and he will be a stud.

The bench press should be the least of your concerns, as it's largely an irrelevant metric. The most it can tell you is whether or not a guy is committed to the weight room, but that isn't in doubt with a player like Epenesa. Plus, he has 34.5" arms.

The problem for Epenesa and the Packers isn't athleticism (while he doesn't fit the profile of the type of athlete they draft high, athleticism at least shouldn't disqualify him). Its fit. He is and always has been an edge in an even front at Iowa. He wins by being a strong edge setter and beating offensive tackles with a varied, technical approach. He's not an interior rusher.

So if you draft him, you have two options. You can move him inside and try to use your 1st round investment in a manner that actually limits his value, because it's not what he really does well. Or you can add him to a heavy rotation with the Smiths and Gary, and hope that you can get him maybe 40% of the snaps.

Either way, it's a bad use of a high pick. If the Packers hadn't invested so heavily in the edge last off-season, I could see it. But as it is, he should be off their board.

 

[AmishMafia]

The bench press should be the least of your concerns, as it's largely an irrelevant metric. The most it can tell you is whether or not a guy is committed to the weight room, but that isn't in doubt with a player like Epenesa. Plus, he has 34.5" arms.

The problem for Epenesa and the Packers isn't athleticism (while he doesn't fit the profile of the type of athlete they draft high, athleticism at least shouldn't disqualify him). Its fit. He is and always has been an edge in an even front at Iowa. He wins by being a strong edge setter and beating offensive tackles with a varied, technical approach. He's not an interior rusher.

So if you draft him, you have two options. You can move him inside and try to use your 1st round investment in a manner that actually limits his value, because it's not what he really does well. Or you can add him to a heavy rotation with the Smiths and Gary, and hope that you can get him maybe 40% of the snaps.

Either way, it's a bad use of a high pick. If the Packers hadn't invested so heavily in the edge last off-season, I could see it. But as it is, he should be off their board.

Bench press gives you an idea of upper body strength which is very important in working with your hands in shedding blockers.

He would not be an OLB for us but a DE playing a 5 technique in our 3-4. Which he can (and has) excelled at.

I think he would be fantastic in that role, especially if he added 10 lbs. He is a relentless, tough player who plays more athletically than he tested. He is instictive and has some very good moves/skills that he developed in the last season. There is no reason to think he wont continue to develop even more and be a force on this team.

 

[Dantés]

Bench press gives you an idea of upper body strength which is very important in working with your hands in shedding blockers.

He would not be an OLB for us but a DE playing a 5 technique in our 3-4. Which he can (and has) excelled at.

I think he would be fantastic in that role, especially if he added 10 lbs. He is a relentless, tough player who plays more athletically than he tested. He is instictive and has some very good moves/skills that he developed in the last season. There is no reason to think he wont continue to develop even more and be a force on this team.

I totally disagree. There are players with explosive strength on the football field who don't bench well, and players who bench well who don't have plus football strength. It's a meaningless metric.

He would by a 5T when we are in 3-4, which is somewhat less than 300 snaps per season. In our true base, which is sub, he's an edge. Thinking in terms of 34OLB and 34DE is outdated. That's not this team or this league any more.

 

[Mondio]

It's one of those things that can verify what you see or just be fairly meaningless. I mean if a guy can only do 10 reps or something and is an Olineman, that would be a redflag to me. But beyond that, there is playing strength and weight room strength and they don't always correlate.

 

[thequick12]

Colleges let a lot go in regards to marijuana. Ain't no way he got suspended 6 games for just pot. I'm not saying he should be off draft boards, just that you don't get suspended that long for failing a drug test, unless it was like the 10th time, which is an issue.

Yeah idk anything about college football let alone NCAA marijuana testing and consequences. I'm just saying I heard it was for marijuana whether that was a failed test or an arrest I have no clue of the specifics.

I was just making the point a guy getting in trouble for marijuana is no longer under the current cba a "character concern"

 

[Dantés]

It's one of those things that can verify what you see or just be fairly meaningless. I mean if a guy can only do 10 reps or something and is an Olineman, that would be a redflag to me. But beyond that, there is playing strength and weight room strength and they don't always correlate.

Agree. And really, the 10 reps would be a red flag just because it might indicate that they don't put in the work in the weight room-- not because of the lack of strength.

For these guys, repping 225 is more of an endurance exercise than a strength exercise. If they really wanted to do something that was more indicative of football strength, they might have guys max in a variety of lifts. But maxing carries a bigger risk of injury, so I doubt they would pursue it.

 

[AmishMafia]

I totally disagree. There are players with explosive strength on the football field who don't bench well, and players who bench well who don't have plus football strength. It's a meaningless metric.

He would by a 5T when we are in 3-4, which is somewhat less than 300 snaps per season. In our true base, which is sub, he's an edge. Thinking in terms of 34OLB and 34DE is outdated. That's not this team or this league any more.

I believe if we had a player of Epensas ability last season, we would played more 3-4. It will only increase the effectiveness of ZSmith to have a pass rush DE in front of him.

As far as the Edge vrs OLB/DE I think you are mixing draft player descriptive terminology with football terminology. I dont know if I have ever heard a packer coach talking about an edge position. Players for the Packers are called either DEs and OLBs. Even their depth charts call them as such. We've discussed it before. I understand how you feel and you know my opinion.

 

[Dantés]

I believe if we had a player of Epensas ability last season, we would played more 3-4. It will only increase the effectiveness of ZSmith to have a pass rush DE in front of him.

As far as the Edge vrs OLB/DE I think you are mixing draft player descriptive terminology with football terminology. I dont know if I have ever heard a packer coach talking about an edge position. Players for the Packers are called either DEs and OLBs. Even their depth charts call them as such. We've discussed it before. I understand how you feel and you know my opinion.

The reason the 3-4 formation has been disappearing league wide is not because of a dearth of talented 34DE's. It's because offensive formations are forcing NFL teams to play in sub the majority of the time. That's why the 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 are the most popular NFL defensive packages in 2020. If the Packers, or any other team, tried to go back to playing 3-4 most of the time, they'd get eviscerated.

I really don't care how you label players. The reality of what they do on the field is what matters. Call the Smiths and Gary OLB's or EDGE or whatever-- they are edge pass rushers who, in Z's case, can reduce inside at times and rush from the interior. Call Dean Lowry a DE or a DL or an iDL or whatever-- he's an interior defensive lineman who plays run and pass from the interior (usually 3T) most of the time, and can play 5T when they are in a 3-4 alignment.

By that same token, call Epenesa whatever you want-- in college he was basically exclusively a guy who played the run and rushed the pass on the edge. Thus if you drafted him in the first round, in theory obviously to do what he does best and not to try and make him into something he's never been, he would be a guy who would spend most of the time playing the run and rush the passer on the edge-- the same role as Z'Darius Smith, Preston Smith, and Rashan Gary.

 

[AmishMafia]

The reason the 3-4 formation has been disappearing league wide is not because of a dearth of talented 34DE's. It's because offensive formations are forcing NFL teams to play in sub the majority of the time. That's why the 4-2-5 and the 4-1-6 are the most popular NFL defensive packages in 2020. If the Packers, or any other team, tried to go back to playing 3-4 most of the time, they'd get eviscerated.

I really don't care how you label players. The reality of what they do on the field is what matters. Call the Smiths and Gary OLB's or EDGE or whatever-- they are edge pass rushers who, in Z's case, can reduce inside at times and rush from the interior. Call Dean Lowry a DE or a DL or an iDL or whatever-- he's an interior defensive lineman who plays run and pass from the interior (usually 3T) most of the time, and can play 5T when they are in a 3-4 alignment.

By that same token, call Epenesa whatever you want-- in college he was basically exclusively a guy who played the run and rushed the pass on the edge. Thus if you drafted him in the first round, in theory obviously to do what he does best and not to try and make him into something he's never been, he would be a guy who would spend most of the time playing the run and rush the passer on the edge-- the same role as Z'Darius Smith, Preston Smith, and Rashan Gary.

I know you regard Daniel Jeremiah. Here is what he says about Epenesa, his #24 overall prospect.

Epenesa is a skilled pass rusher with outstanding size, strength and effort. He has average get-off quickness, but he boasts strong hands, can flip his hips and is a reliable finisher. He has a variety of hand techniques, including a violent club move, swipe move and a push/pull move. He also will flash a long-arm move with his inside arm. He has a great feel when an OT is leaning outside, which creates an opening for his up-and-under inside-counter move. Against the run, he can hold the point of attack easily. His effort on the back side is outstanding, but he lacks the burst to make a ton of plays from distance. Overall, Epenesa has a very high floor as a prospect. He should be a consistent 8-to-10-sack performer at the very least.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...hs-top-50-2020-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-30


That sounds to me like a guy who will thrive as a DE for us.

 

[Dantés]

I know you regard Daniel Jeremiah. Here is what he says about Epenesa, his #24 overall prospect.

Epenesa is a skilled pass rusher with outstanding size, strength and effort. He has average get-off quickness, but he boasts strong hands, can flip his hips and is a reliable finisher. He has a variety of hand techniques, including a violent club move, swipe move and a push/pull move. He also will flash a long-arm move with his inside arm. He has a great feel when an OT is leaning outside, which creates an opening for his up-and-under inside-counter move. Against the run, he can hold the point of attack easily. His effort on the back side is outstanding, but he lacks the burst to make a ton of plays from distance. Overall, Epenesa has a very high floor as a prospect. He should be a consistent 8-to-10-sack performer at the very least.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...hs-top-50-2020-nfl-draft-prospect-rankings-30


That sounds to me like a guy who will thrive as a DE for us.

I don't disagree with any of that. You're missing the point.

What I am not saying: Epenesa isn't a good player and can't play in Green Bay.

What I am saying: Epenesa's role in Green Bay's primary defensive formations would have him competing with entrenched starters for snaps, limiting his ability to make an impact due to the realities of playing time.

It's the same complaint people had a year ago about taking Gary after signing both Smiths, but worse because they obviously also have Gary now.

 

[AmishMafia]

I don't disagree with any of that. You're missing the point.

What I am not saying: Epenesa isn't a good player and can't play in Green Bay.

What I am saying: Epenesa's role in Green Bay's primary defensive formations would have him competing with entrenched starters for snaps, limiting his ability to make an impact due to the realities of playing time.

It's the same complaint people had a year ago about taking Gary after signing both Smiths, but worse because they obviously also have Gary now.

Okay.

I guess it comes down to what formations we run. I would see the front 7 as Lowry-Clark-Espy on the DL and PSmith- Kirksey-Burks(?)-ZSmith for a majority of the defensive snaps.

I complained about Gary because he didnt produce in college. But i was surprised that they selected an OLB after spending so much on 2 FAs. I dont see Espensa as playing the same position as gary and smiths.

 

[Dantés]

Okay.

I guess it comes down to what formations we run. I would see the front 7 as Lowry-Clark-Espy on the DL and PSmith- Kirksey-Burks(?)-ZSmith for a majority of the defensive snaps.

I complained about Gary because he didnt produce in college. But i was surprised that they selected an OLB after spending so much on 2 FAs. I dont see Espensa as playing the same position as gary and smiths.

I don't see Epenesa playing the same position as those other guys in base 3-4, but I do see them replacing one another on the field in sub.

So you're right, that it comes down to formation. And if you imagine us running a 3-4 like what you illustrated above, I would understand the fit.

But the reality is that we don't play defense that way, and really almost no one in the NFL does. 3-4 and 4-3 alignments are the minority. Teams that use them most often typically have super athletic linebackers with cover skills and run a lot of zone. The Packers don't have such linebackers, and they run more man than zone.

This article may be helpful. It is about 2018 specifically, but this is an ongoing trend. Some relevant points, if you don't want to read the whole thing.

For the first time since we began tracking personnel in 2011, base defenses were used on fewer than 25 percent of all snaps. And, for the first time, nickel defenses were used on more than 60 percent of all snaps. It's a trend that's been going on for years, but it's always interesting to see these whole-number milestones go past.

Nickel and Dime combined for about 75% of snaps in 2018, while base was just barely under 25%.

The Broncos were the heaviest base defense team in 2018, running it 45% of the time. The Packers were 24th, running it 18% of the time. They ran nickel or dime 81% of the time.

I can't find an article on it at the moment, but I've read that the Packers were 3rd in the NFL last year in % of snaps in dime.

So Green Bay is a team that uses a base 3-4 15-20% of the time. This, as an aside, is why I don't see the sense in labeling guys "OLB's" "DE's" or "NT's." Why label them according to what they do least?

But more to the point, this is why Epenesa's ability to play 5T doesn't really mean much to me.

 

[GleefulGary]

If you look at Epenesa's closest athletic comparison, it's Fadol Brown. We should remember Brown, he played here. A decent role player good against the run.

Epenesa would have to be a major outlier for our defense. He's not athletic enough to play on the Edge, and he's not strong enough to play inside. Now maybe he gains strength. That's a thing. But do we want to spend a first round pick on a player at a position we don't use full time that isn't an exceptional athlete?

I wouldn't. Unless you want a better Fadol Brown really badly.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I'm interested in what the people here think about some of the guys who have red flags but still plenty of potential.

• Willy Gay, LB, Great athlete and player rock solid in coverage and is good blitzer however he got caught cheating a test and once broke his own QB's collar bone.

• Laviska Shenault, WR, A playmaker who was pretty much Colorado's entire offense but carries concerns about his rout running and has had a lot of injuries.

• Netani Muti, G, Great player but again a lot of injuries.

• AJ Epenesa, DE, Good player in college absolutely destroyed Austin Jackson but ran a over 5 second 40 at less than 280lbs.

• Zach Baun, OLB/ILB, Was good at Wisconsin but per pff had zero pressures on bull rushes he will likely have to move inside but he never played there at Wisconsin so that's a concern.

• KJ Hamler, WR, Crazy fast but has a issue with drops.

Epenesa is likely a first round pick, right? I think the Packers have more important needs at WR and OT. I’d pass on him unless he fell to the 3rd round, which seems unlikely.

 

[Fredrik87]

What in particular does everyone think about Willie Gay.
On the one hand his play on the field is great especially in coverage, and he's a freak of a athlete even by NFL standards.
On the other hand his of field stuff is really scares me in particular the part about his breaking his own QB's collarbone.
According Daniel Jeremiah his interviews have been good however so he has that in his favor.

I'm really conflicted on what I think of him.

 

[Dantés]

What in particular does everyone think about Willie Gay.
On the one hand his play on the field is great especially in coverage, and he's a freak of a athlete even by NFL standards.
On the other hand his of field stuff is really scares me in particular the part about his breaking his own QB's collarbone.
According Daniel Jeremiah his interviews have been good however so he has that in his favor.

I'm really conflicted on what I think of him.

He's the type of player where the off-field is bad but not necessarily disqualifying (like, if a guy hits women-- I don't want him). So you basically just have to trust that if the FO took him, they were able to get comfortable with him. I don't try too hard to figure out if it would be a good or bad idea myself. How could I?