Official Raiders studs and duds

[Mondio]

Using a 4th pick isn't leaving the position alone.

we NEED a top 1st round Top 10 at WR, ILB, TE and then a LT too, so if we don't get at least 4 1st round top 10 picks in next years draft, TT needs to be fired for being so stubborn and stupid!

 

[Un4GivN]

Charles Woodson announced he's retiring after this season if anyone cares to make a thread honoring the legend.

Sad to hear the ending of a legend... And though he spent less then half of his career in Green Bay. I'll be wearing my #21 proudly for a long time. All-Time great player.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

This is the kind of thing that bothers me, because I believe that's exactly how TT/the Packers will look at it.
Why not look outside the roster for a better player. They'll probably just leave the position alone again and hope for improvement from among those three.

Which "better player" do you want them to sign?

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

Vikings WR's and TE's went 15-1 today. The one miss was a batted ball. Teddy's 3 misses, 1 batted ball and 2 dropped passes by the RB's, Line and Asiata.

I thought this was a Packer's studs/duds thread, not Vikings.

I'm glad your sig doesn't list all the teams that have more Super Bowl wins than the Vikings as that would be an extremely long sig.

 

[TJV]

I'm glad your sig doesn't list all the teams that have more Super Bowl wins than the Vikings as that would be an extremely long sig.

It's the perfect Vikings fan signature, isn't it? 'Ya we really stink in Super Bowls but here's three other teams that have stunk too'.

 

[PackerDNA]

Which "better player" do you want them to sign?

OMG, dude. There's no one you can sign now. The point is this off season. Don't sit back and say we're fine at WR because Jordy will be back. Don't stand pat at TE because your 'high ' on Rodgers potential. Don't draft some OT from Southeast Nowhere ST. in the 5th round and consider your issues at T solved. Don't say well, Barrington's coming back, so we'll just let him , Ryan and Palmer fight it out at ILB and consider that's all that's needed there. Don't just bring in 1 or 2 undrafted punters for a cup of coffee as 'competition ' for Masthay and then just hand him the job anyway.
Where and when you can be aggressive in going after better players. Use the free agent market; doesn't have to be a mega dollar guy; look for vets who can step right in and play well and provide you with better depth.
And be aggressive in the draft. Trade up if you can and get a guy that can step in anf be a playmaker rather than hang on to those extra late round picks who likely end up on the practice squad if not cut outright.
Don't sit on your ***, bring back pretty much the same team with basically the same issues while everyone arounds you makes moves and then sit back and yell "Super Bowl" 2000 times.

 

[TJV]

[attempted humor]But we'll be fine at WR because Jordy will be back! And I'm high on R. Rodgers - he caught that Hail Mary pass, remember?. I get what you're saying about the kid form Southeast Nowhere St. but I heard he's got a really good story - certainly worth a 5th rounder and I think that solves the problem at OT, don't you? Don't you think it'd be a great idea to have Ryan, Palmer, Barrington and Thomas - don't forget about Thomas - fight it out at ILB? Probably a couple of pro bowlers in that group. And two - maybe THREE - UDFA punters oughta do it, right? (Probably worth the $5K it'd take to bring that third guy in.) And you're right about the draft - he should trade his 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders to move up two spots in the first round! C'mon Ted, be bold!![/attempted humor]

 

[Carl]

OMG, dude. There's no one you can sign now. The point is this off season. Don't sit back and say we're fine at WR because Jordy will be back. Don't stand pat at TE because your 'high ' on Rodgers potential. Don't draft some OT from Southeast Nowhere ST. in the 5th round and consider your issues at T solved. Don't say well, Barrington's coming back, so we'll just let him , Ryan and Palmer fight it out at ILB and consider that's all that's needed there. Don't just bring in 1 or 2 undrafted punters for a cup of coffee as 'competition ' for Masthay and then just hand him the job anyway.
Where and when you can be aggressive in going after better players. Use the free agent market; doesn't have to be a mega dollar guy; look for vets who can step right in and play well and provide you with better depth.
And be aggressive in the draft. Trade up if you can and get a guy that can step in anf be a playmaker rather than hang on to those extra late round picks who likely end up on the practice squad if not cut outright.
Don't sit on your ***, bring back pretty much the same team with basically the same issues while everyone arounds you makes moves and then sit back and yell "Super Bowl" 2000 times.

Would cost a lot more than late rounders to move up in the first round.

 

[PackerDNA]

*Sigh* I guess I come across as speaking Martian. Never said trade late rounders to move up in the 1st guys. Give me some credit. Move up where you can, my point being I'd rather see a draft of 4 or 5 guys who get on the field than 1o or 12 with half of those never seeing the field or roster.
No time now, talk to you all later.

 

[yooperpackfan]

Oops!
Your point was clear to me.
I've been advocating for quality vs quantity for years, but Thompson hangs on to those 5th,6th and 7th round draft picks and even adds more at times searching that mostly elusive diamond in the rough that will come cheap.

 

[Carl]

*Sigh* I guess I come across as speaking Martian. Never said trade late rounders to move up in the 1st guys. Give me some credit. Move up where you can, my point being I'd rather see a draft of 4 or 5 guys who get on the field than 1o or 12 with half of those never seeing the field or roster.
No time now, talk to you all later.

Oops!
Your point was clear to me.
I've been advocating for quality vs quantity for years, but Thompson hangs on to those 5th,6th and 7th round draft picks and even adds more at times searching that mostly elusive diamond in the rough that will come cheap.

A draft of only 4-5 players would yield only 2-3 players at most who can contribute considering most picks don't work out.

Even if half the 10-12 never see the field, it's still more players contributing than picking 4-5 guys total with 2-3 working out.

TT does the right thing by using lots of picks.

 

[Mondio]

Considering the amount of players that don't live up to potential after a draft, I'm a fan of using a lot of picks to build a team. I think when there's a player they feel really/ strongly about where value meets the status or the money in FA, they go get what they want. They moved to get clay, maybe they haven't pegged anybody that was worth going to get lately? Maybe they will this year? We're very far outside the top 10 consistently in the draft. It would cost a lot to move up. there's always the chance we hit it big, but there's a chance we've missed out on some late round contributers too. i wouldn't mind losing some Bradfords and Thortons if it meant we had solid 1st round talent at another position, but easier said than done.

Besides, you could package multiple 4th thru 7th rounders, basically give up half your draft and not move from 29 to #9 in the draft, so we would be talking about #1's and #2's with a combination of maybe some 3 and 4's with swapping positions in other rounds as well to move up that far.

 

[yooperpackfan]

TT does the right thing by using lots of picks.

Your opinion, not mine.
But, I also don't believe Thompson is that great draft "guru" that so many make him out to be.

 

[Mondio]

Your opinion, not mine.
But, I also don't believe Thompson is that great draft "guru" that so many make him out to be.

When people talk about how good he is, it's compared to the competition, not against perfection though. I think a lot of people confuse the 2. He's nowhere near perfect, but he's better than most. Yes we have a great QB, every great team does, but it takes a team and the Packers have been a very, very good one for a long time. We've come up short in a few places, but we are there, every year in the hunt. I think every season has been unique and has had it's share of disappointments along the way, but he has built a team, largely off draft picks that contends year in and year out. Who else has done that?

So is a guru, when you compare him to perfection? Does he get them all right? I think that answer is obvious. But compare him to the rest of the league, who has put a team in the playoffs 7 years in a row with a roster built from the draft? and before all the Pats fans are in with well BB has done this, they've won the same amount of superbowls as GB in the past 10 years that Ted has been here.

 

[Carl]

Your opinion, not mine.
But, I also don't believe Thompson is that great draft "guru" that so many make him out to be.

Having a draft class of only 4-5 guys is a great way to only get 2-3 contributors.

 

[Carl]

Your opinion, not mine.
But, I also don't believe Thompson is that great draft "guru" that so many make him out to be.

Also, as Mondio said, TT is very good at drafting compared to the rest of the league, espcially when factoring in the consistently low draft postion.

 

[Carl]

When people talk about how good he is, it's compared to the competition, not against perfection though. I think a lot of people confuse the 2. He's nowhere near perfect, but he's better than most. Yes we have a great QB, every great team does, but it takes a team and the Packers have been a very, very good one for a long time. We've come up short in a few places, but we are there, every year in the hunt. I think every season has been unique and has had it's share of disappointments along the way, but he has built a team, largely off draft picks that contends year in and year out. Who else has done that?

So is a guru, when you compare him to perfection? Does he get them all right? I think that answer is obvious. But compare him to the rest of the league, who has put a team in the playoffs 7 years in a row with a roster built from the draft? and before all the Pats fans are in with well BB has done this, they've won the same amount of superbowls as GB in the past 10 years that Ted has been here.

Good post.

It's fair to question TT for lack of using free agency, but he's a good drafter and it's not even debatable.

 

[Half Empty]

Good post.

It's fair to question TT for lack of using free agency, but he's a good drafter and it's not even debatable.

Hmmm, looking back at some posts, it appears that it is.

 

[Carl]

Hmmm, looking back at some posts, it appears that it is.

Building a Super Bowl winner and 7 consecutive playoff births almost entirely through the draft sure is a lot better evidence than, "I just don't think he's as good as people say." Especially, when he's always near the bottom of the order.

Good GMs hit on about 1/3 of picks. TT has done that. I'll admit he had a few bad classes, but has certainly rebounded recently.

 

[Half Empty]

Building a Super Bowl winner and 7 consecutive playoff births almost entirely through the draft sure is a lot better evidence than, "I just don't think he's as good as people say." Especially, when he's always near the bottom of the order.

Good GMs hit on about 1/3 of picks. TT has done that. I'll admit he had a few bad classes, but has certainly rebounded recently.

Good points, all. Just saying that it is a little over the top to declare that the issue is not debatable, especially in a thread where it's being debated. It's a fact, and therefore not debatable, that TT chose AR in the draft. What is debatable is whether that was a stroke of genius or :look what I found". Even more debatable is whether that first choice was primarily responsible for the championship and playoffs.

I'm not going to quibble about the 1/3 number, either as a baseline for good GM performance in general or for TT's in particular. However, I'd be willing to bet that plenty of folks would be willing to debate. Most of what we discuss here is relative, subjective, or semantic and hence open to debate.

 

[Carl]

Good points, all. Just saying that it is a little over the top to declare that the issue is not debatable, especially in a thread where it's being debated. It's a fact, and therefore not debatable, that TT chose AR in the draft. What is debatable is whether that was a stroke of genius or :look what I found". Even more debatable is whether that first choice was primarily responsible for the championship and playoffs.

I'm not going to quibble about the 1/3 number, either as a baseline for good GM performance in general or for TT's in particular. However, I'd be willing to bet that plenty of folks would be willing to debate. Most of what we discuss here is relative, subjective, or semantic and hence open to debate.

You're right. "Not debatable" was a poor choice of words. Instead, I'll go with evidence overwhelmingly supports TT as a good drafter and I don't see how it can be argued against.

 

[bigbubbatd]

Also, as Mondio said, TT is very good at drafting compared to the rest of the league, espcially when factoring in the consistently low draft postion.

This is the part that is under-appreciated as well. TT has had only three top 20 picks in his 11 drafts. He is constantly picking late and still finding very good value.

 

[Half Empty]

You're right. "Not debatable" was a poor choice of words. Instead, I'll go with evidence overwhelmingly supports TT as a good drafter and I don't see how it can be argued against.

There you go. Put it in 'my opinion' terms, and all is well. Was going to include 'not debatable' with 'game over', 'case closed', 'enough said', et. al. - hate those posts that essentially say 'I've stated a purely subjective opinion in such as way as to render further discussion useless'.

 

[TJV]

Never said trade late rounders to move up in the 1st guys. Give me some credit. Move up where you can, my point being I'd rather see a draft of 4 or 5 guys who get on the field than 1o or 12 with half of those never seeing the field or roster.

To the degree this is aimed at me, my post was meant to be humorous, with only a slight Martian accent.

Seriously, even what you suggest in your clarification doesn't always work out. Look at the 2012 draft. Thompson traded up 3 times. Up 8 spots in the second round take Jerel Worthy, up 28 spots into the second round to take Casey Hayward, and up 34 spots into the fifth round to take Terrell Manning. At the end of the 2012 season the Hayward pick looked brilliant; still a good pick IMO but not a brilliant one. The other two picks look like Thompson would have been better off staying put in that draft. This is only one draft but Thompson made a concerted effort to employ the trade-up strategy and I think it led to negative results. Since the 2010 draft Thompson has moved up and down with a net plus one pick over those 5 drafts. I think the reason Thompson usually uses his full complement of picks is that’s by far his main source for talent acquisition and because even with all the money and man hours spent on researching prospects it’s a crap shoot because it involves projecting the future performance of human beings in a far more demanding environment. That’s why I (and many of you) would prefer he use UFA more, because while there are still questions about how newcomers will interact with their teammates and how they’ll fit the scheme, they are “NFL ready”.

 

[PackerDNA]

To the degree this is aimed at me, my post was meant to be humorous, with only a slight Martian accent.

Seriously, even what you suggest in your clarification doesn't always work out. Look at the 2012 draft. Thompson traded up 3 times. Up 8 spots in the second round take Jerel Worthy, up 28 spots into the second round to take Casey Hayward, and up 34 spots into the fifth round to take Terrell Manning. At the end of the 2012 season the Hayward pick looked brilliant; still a good pick IMO but not a brilliant one. The other two picks look like Thompson would have been better off staying put in that draft. This is only one draft but Thompson made a concerted effort to employ the trade-up strategy and I think it led to negative results. Since the 2010 draft Thompson has moved up and down with a net plus one pick over those 5 drafts. I think the reason Thompson usually uses his full complement of picks is that’s by far his main source for talent acquisition and because even with all the money and man hours spent on researching prospects it’s a crap shoot because it involves projecting the future performance of human beings in a far more demanding environment. That’s why I (and many of you) would prefer he use UFA more, because while there are still questions about how newcomers will interact with their teammates and how they’ll fit the scheme, they are “NFL ready”.

Not aimed at you TJV, I appreciate you were being humorous, and that your sense of humor can be subtle and dry at times. No offence taken or intended. No time tonight, getting everything wrapped up and I'm done!! Phew!
You all have a great night, and hopefully we can pick this up tommorow, so hold those thoughts.