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Now that the homer blinders are off....

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Dieseljunkie12, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. P-E-Z

    P-E-Z Cheesehead

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    Mathews is good at stripping the ball no doubt, and Woodson was great at jumping routs. There is skill involved. Much of luck just right angle to strip the ball or jump the rout. You need to be able to win in games without turnovers. On defense that means 3 and outs. Everyone been able to drive on us this year. We giving up way too many yards and points. The lack of turnover this years just highlights it.
     
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  2. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    The 'turnover question' is a good illustration, in my opinion, of "the harder you work, the luckier you get". While P-E-Z correctly (again in my opinion) that there is a certain amount of luck in swiping the ball or putting your helmet on the ball, as #52 did in SB45, I really believe that serious 'swiping' drills in practice will raise the consciousness of defenders in trying to create turnovers. However, if you've ever watched the Pack run that "drill"... well, I wouldn't call that serious...

    On the flip side of that coin, these guys haven't been tackling worth a damn lately and I'm betting that the coaching staff has been rippin' 'em a new one to 'wrap up first' and the guys who MIGHT be following up can go for the strip. Problem with that equation is that the guys suppposedly wrapping up, are wrapping up air.

    The problems on this team defensively are magnified by the sheer fact that our offense isn't functioning... DC's can double up Jordy and/or Jones, throw the proverbial 8-in-the-box and now dare the Pack to beat them with the run -- and the parade of back-ups (Flynn included) isn't going to be scaring anyone into changing the defensive game plan. You can't, in addition to losing Rodgers, lose Finley and lose Cobb ... with Newhouse being a turnstile and all of the juggling within that offensive line, expect Lacy, while running into a wall of defenders to bail out a battered offense. After that 3 and out.... enter a defense that NEEDS to be kept off of the field -- DL, Lb's and DB's equally -- it's really sad because 3rd down conversions have become the norm, opposing offenses run or pass over the middle repeatedly against this defense unchallenged...then, you have parts of the defense playing a zone and part playing a man-to-man .... and we have a recipe for what has occurred over the last 5 weeks.

    Yesterday was the epitome of ugliness. I didn't even get mad watching this game ... I did however get mildly scolded by repeating "W-T-F" over and over. I warned the mother in law to NOT come downstairs...but would she listen?? Noo-oooo-oooo, then, I'm the potty mouth. ;)

    Again, this is just my opinion and a good majority of it is a post hoc ergo propter hoc ... knee jerk response ... and more than likely a simplified view of how things can get so ugly with "just one guy out of the lineup", but I do see the game as a chess game with live chess pieces and can't help it. All I know is that yesterday's game was pretty darned ugly....and as I've shared with some Lions fan friends --".... a GOOD team would have put up 60 against the Pack yesterday, so, no need to pack your bags for a deep playoff run. If your definition of success is beating Green Bay, this year in particular, well then, you've just had your own little Super Bowl run --- good for you guys." How's that for being a miserable "fvck"? Heh heh heh ...

    Still, this season is NOT over yet ... the wick of this candle we call Packers football may be burned really short ... but it ain't over yet guys.
     
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  3. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Alright listen ********, and anybody else who wants to use this argument.

    Nobody wants to win a Superbowl with 15 players on injured reserve.
    Our team is not the same as in 2010. It's not even the same as last year.
    Our division isn't the same as in 2010, The League isn't the same as in 2010.

    **** changes bro. I'm not sure how old you are, maybe you still use a corded rotary dial phone to make calls. It might do the job, but there are easier ways to make phone calls. Just like it could be so much easier to win football games.

    If that means making changes, well that's what we need to do.

    Please excuse my language, but honestly, get out of your time machine people. Nobody cares about what we did 3-4 years ago. Teams don't look and say "oh wow it's the 2010 superbowl champs, we better watch out" they just beat the hell out of us and our team just bends over and takes it.
     
  4. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    You have no sense of reality - and you just don't understand the NFL. You are a spoiled child and can't understand why you can't your team win a SB every year. What you apparently don't understand is that there are other NFL teams with the same goal, filled with professional players as well. Winning the Superbowl isn't easy.
     
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  5. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    Says the guy who is permanently stuck in 2010.

    No, what I don't understand is when you have issues that plague you for years and they never get addressed.

    Nobody said it was, although with how much you and others go on and on about winning it with 15 players on IR 3 years ago, and how much of a genius Ted Thompson and Dom Capers are and how much depth we supposedly have, one would think it'd be easier for us to overcome. When that simply isn't the case.
     
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  6. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Maybe you could learn something from history. Ignorance is never a good thing, and its just too bad that winning a SB goes against your blind hatred of TT. But it is reality.
    Limited number of players available. 31 other teams vying for them. Limited amount of $ available. 22 starting positions than need to be continually addressed. And no team in football is without weaknesses. And name a position that hasn't been addressed? What position has TT refused to draft players for that is a problem?

    I think it is very clear in my posts that Capers is a major issue. I have also been clear that I thought the overall coaching has been surprisingly bad. Why did you feel the need to lump Capers in with TT in that statement? That's something someone does when they realize that their argument is stretching it.
     
  7. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    You do realize we have only played 3 really good rush offenses all year right?

    SF is 4th and they did not need to run because our defense made Kaperwhatever look like the second coming of Montana

    Washington is 1st in rushing and we got them the 2nd game of the year when the still could not huddle properly.

    Eagles are ranked 2nd and they ran the ball all over us. other than SF and Washington one of which did nothing pass and the other who could not do anything against anyone at the time we have played rushing offenses of:

    21st, 15th, 28th and 29th.

    The mystical 5th ranked rushing defense was a smoke and mirrors fluke because of playing against poor rushing teams. They were never that good, just better than some really poor rushing teams.
     
  8. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Totally agree. Yes, the Lions would have probably scored less with a more efficient offense but we would still have lost. In any case I didn't get that as the primary thrust and it relates back to the Sitton comment you quoted. I took it too mean the defense is getting tired out aqnd that was why they played bad.
     
  9. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well listen to Sitton explain it..
     
  10. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Gore 21 for 44 yards--- team 34 carries 90 yards ---Gore is considered good
    Bush 13 for 44 yards--- team 19 carries 64 yards --- Bush is considered good
    Rice 14 for 34 yards---- team 22 carries 47 yards---- Rice is considered good
    AP 13 for 60 yards--- team 19 carries 111 yards----
    AP is GREAT...We held them to 111 1st time 2nd time they got over 250

    I consider them holding those players iin check a very good accomplishment...

    But you consider those 4 rb poor rushers, your opinion

    We will just have to disagree on it
     
  11. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Can anyone deny that those 3 were good jobs on run defense?

    But remember, we shut Gore (and Kaepernick) down on the ground at the expense of the pass, allowing both Anquan Boldin and Vernon Davis to be wide open all day long. Kaepernick threw for his CAREER-HIGH of over 400 yards. He struggled against almost everyone after that. So did Boldin for 2 months.

    We used to shut Forte down.
    But on Nov 4, he carved us up.

    Something has changed with the defense and I can't put my finger on it.
    Was it all due to Matthews breaking a thumb vs Detroit at Minnesota?
    Can't be that simple.

    All the guys tired, even though our DL supposedly has more depth than it has in years?

    Hawk?
    Brad Jones?

    I wanted Arthur Brown in the draft because I felt he'd be an instant upgrade at ILB.
    We definitely need to upgrade the ILB position, but they gave Jones a new contract, allowing Bishop to leave.
    And they still think Hawk is good.
    Until they upgrade that position, I think we're in some trouble.
     
  12. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Not worried about the pass def per say..

    No one knows what happen, but when Rodgers went down, that is exactly when the run def suffered..Forte you said?

    When did he run wild on the Pack? And when did Rodgers go down

    The only way this gets settled is when Rodgers plays again, if our def improves we have our answer
     
  13. IluvGB

    IluvGB I <3 Packers!!!!

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    I forgot to add my 2 cents.. HOMER calling for duty!!!! I will always be (as someone pointed out) the eternal optimist..
    Yes there are problems...but YES THEY CAN BE FIXED....

    for the love! que my back ups down there..v v v
     
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  14. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    Played nothing but run defense at the expense of what will amount to being an okay QB having what will end up being the best game of his entire career.

    No chad johnson on the field the packers dared the lions to throw the ball by stacking the box

    has 460 yards rushing for a 2.9 yard per carry average, in otherwords, no he is not good that or his offensive line sucks, Baltimore has the 28 ranked rushing offense, they are bad, period

    Again, first game stacked the box daring the Queens to throw the ball

    Edit: yes I agree AP is great

    For the record, I agree that all of the above were good performances by the defense, the only thing I disagree on is that I can see through the smoke and mirrors, of the 4 good performances turned in, 3 of them were in games where we sold out against the run, daring the other team to throw the ball by stacking against the run and one of them was against a team and player that are not the same as they were 2 years ago.

    What is happening now is we are getting to see how bad of a run defense we really are because we are always playing from behind and always getting destroyed while teams run the ball down our throats. If your take a minute to look at the big picture it is pretty obvious this team was never as good defensively as they once appeared.
     
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  15. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    I did but it came with your amplification. ;) I'll try to find your post when you said the defense was tired because the offense went three and out so many times. I countered that how could that be the case when time of possession in past games was not that lopsided and at the onset of the Packers - Lions game the defense couldn't stop the Lions early on. No need to get snippy btw.:tdown:

    And Osponge above has a winner with his post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  16. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Not snippy at all..I explained why I feel a certain way and Josh Sitton said same thing...You brought the Sitton quote again..Hence, why I said listen to him explain it..

    If you listen to his explanation, he might explain it better than I

    http://media.sportsradio1250.com/a/...joins-the-big-show-4pm-hour.htm?pageid=911300


    13:30 mark Josh starts to explain the offense cant hold the ball...Def cant stay fresh and it is all tied together...

    He explains EXACTLY what I am trying to say
     
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  17. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Fair enough...They can only play who is on the schedule..If the teams "sucked" they did what we expected them to do....

    If Rodgers tossed for 8 TD and 500 yards on the worse def ever in the history of the NFL do we poo'poo it? No, we are proud he did it

    IE

    2011----Lions last game of the year vs Flyyn.... that def was ranked 23 in points and yards given up..

    No one says that the Lions sucked, so that is why Flynn played so well...

    No.... we say we are more impressed with Flynn
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  18. joshsup17

    joshsup17 Cheesehead

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    bo pelini
     
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  19. DOCTORAPK

    DOCTORAPK Cheesehead

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    Position = dominating tacklers...and you don't know every ####ing thing Amish Cheesecake.
     
  20. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    I don't have the stat sheet for the first half handy, but I'm pretty sure that Bush, Bell, AP, and McCoy were all eating us up long before TOP was a factor. Is it a factor? Sure. Is it the main problem? No, I don't think so.
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    McCoy was after rodgers got hurt

    I guess posters might feel I am saying that is the only factor..I never did say TOP is the only factor...But it does play a part....

    I am more interested in the fact that up until Rodgers was hurt, they had the #5 rushing defense..The same game he got hurt, is exactly when their rushing defense went sour..
     
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  22. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    I don't mean necessarily before Rodgers got hurt, just that as I recall we were getting chewed up on the ground early in games most of the last 5, long before fatigue should have been a factor.

    The Bears game was pretty split on TOP and we still gave up 171. We won TOP against Philly by almost 10 minutes and still got gashed for 200+ on the ground. We got absolutely destroyed in TOP in San Francisco and still held their rushing attack completely in check.

    While I don't deny that fatigue is a factor in games, I see this as a defensive problem, not an offensive one. These guys are professionals, presumably well-conditioned ones and shouldn't be getting dominated on the ground every time the offense doesn't win the time of possession battle.
     
  23. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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    We're all going back and forth. Bottom line that I don't think anyone can refute is that this roster, aside from AR, is not nearly as good as most of us thought it was.

    The interesting thing to watch going forward will be to see if TT can see this (is he overly insulated in his position as manager?) and changes his MO using other avenues available to him to improve the roster (even a little bit), or if he is so unbending and set in his ways that he doesn't change a thing. This would really be the first time in his tenure as GM, where his abilities/skill will have been seriosuly called into question (obviosouly after the Favre thing there were always haters...not counting them). I know most will say no way he changes, but I'm not so sure.
     
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  24. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    He has to be amendable to change.

    I don't expect Ted Thompson to be right 100% of the time. That's very unrealistic. I do expect him to look in the mirror after the season and say, "Okay. I've invested multiple high draft picks in my defense. I've given generous contract extensions to most of my defensive free agents. I've worked with Mike to bring in defensive coaches and a coordinator that I believe are competent. Something, or some things, within this system aren't working. We're getting worse, not better, and I need to figure out what that is and correct it."

    I believe, and hope, that he'll do that. He's a smart guy, and I firmly believe he wants to win, not prove that he was right about everything.
     
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