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Mike Daniels could propel the Packers defense

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by FrankRizzo, Jun 5, 2012.

  1. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Yep. Eyes must have been crossed Actually it was 61% passing. You have to also count how many times we were sacked. That comes out to 593 pass plays, not 552.
     
  2. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    As far as big players not playing in 4th? I looked real fast at 4 games..andeems Woody, Clay played in those in the 4th a they are listed as having tackles...BJ not listed but that just means no tackles...Maybe played?

    Does anyone have links to show how much these guys played in 4th?
     
  3. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I never said they sat the whole time but they all sat a lot of it over the season. Most importantly, it was trash time. Did you read Brian Burke's article I linked to?
     
  4. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    That was a very interesting article, very mathematical, formulated. Good stuff.

    One thing was, about our defense, that even though Aaron Rodgers set an all-time NFL record for passing rating, with the unreal stats he put up in 2011: our defense allowed more passing yards than his pace.... in fact we allowed an all-time NFL record for passing yards. Sure a higher percentage of it came in the 4th quarters than 1-3, but it was still bad.

    We think we have that fixed now though with Nick Perry, Jarel Worthy, Mike Daniels, a healthy -for now- Mike Neal, Anthony Hargrove on the front edge, and the improved Davon House, Tramon Williams, Sammy Shields, and rookies Heyward and McMillian on the back end.

    I am now excited to see our defense take the field, like I was in 2010.

    I remember a poll,thread here late in the 2010 season here (probably the thread is still here somewhere), which asked the basic question: which side do you have more confidence in, our offense or our defense. And I believe our defense won.
     
  5. DoddPower

    DoddPower Nick Perry is watching you, NFL QB's!

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    Well, I've certainly addressed this point several times since. I didn't necessary mean that I would rather much less interceptions, or that a team couldn't have a ton of interceptions and other forms of defensive stops. As I've said several times now, I'm speaking to a cumulative effect. Play better on the majority of the snaps when not getting interceptions, i.e, more 3rd down stops, more sacks, more three and outs, all of which go along with better tackling, communication, etc., and the end result would be more total defensive stops and less opportunities for the opposing offense to score. A lot of interceptions are great, but solid all around defense will not only lead to more stops, but plenty of interceptions as well, such as the 49'er's defense last season. Sure, the Packer's got a lot of interceptions, but they weren't very good otherwise. Clearly not the worst as some have tried to say I've implied, but definitely not very good. I want my team to be more than "not the worst," or even average.

    I referenced some statistics, many including yards admittedly, but some things simply don't show up in the statistics. The Giants playoff game is a perfect example. Offense is struggling and the Defense was needed to finally pick up some of the slack. Before the end of the half, they allow a horrible draw play putting them in position to attempt a hailmary. SOMEHOW, the hailmary was completed. That's two back to back horrible defenses plays in the biggest game of the season. A fundamentally sound championship defense cannot allow things like that to happen, even with an offense like the Packer's. Those two plays epitomized the Packer's defensive season, to me. Or perhaps the end of the Chiefs game when the Packer's defense needed to get a stop on obvious running situations but gave up embarrassing first downs negating any chance for the offense to take the field to attempt to win the game. Those outside runs to Walden's side were embarrassing. Once again, a time when we truly needed the defense to step up and they did not. Or maybe even the Charger's game when Vincent Jackson absolutely ABUSED the defense for 3 TD's and several big plays. Things like this are what I was referring to what I made statements such as "I know what I saw and it was a bad defense." Statistics don't always provide the full picture. The defense had some MAJOR flaws that seemed to be exposed at the worst of times. I suppose I would say the defense wasn't very "clutch" last season.

    I agree that yards allowed isn't the most important factor to consider when rating a defense, but they can't be completely ignored, either. I'll set an arbitrary rating (weight) of 70% to points allowed and 30% to yards. (19 * .70) + (32 * .30) = ~ 23. So, using my arbitrary weighted calculation (which could easily be modified as one sees fit) shows that that Packer's were the 23rd best defense. That's similar to the 21st ranking that Burke calculated. I look forward to reading through his article as time allows to gain a different perspective. But still, a defensive ranking anywhere in the 20's just isn't good to me in any way. The fact that there are teams even worse doesn't reassure me at all either.

    I also agree that the defense isn't that far away from being good again. Hopefully that hasn't been the perception of my posts. I love the moves that have been made and fully expect players that regressed to return to form. However, I've been discussing last seasons performance. For whatever reason, several players did not play to their expectations last season and the story has now been written. It's great to talk about the future, but the past can't be overlooked. I've stated before that a significantly improved pass rush will change the entire dynamic of this defense. Most others say the same thing. I expect the off season moves to do just that, unless some of the players such as Perry and Worthy flop. I don't think they will. It's just unfortunate that the defense couldn't have been any better in a season in which we could have won the Super Bowl again.

    Re: players sitting out such as Mathews, Williams, Woodson, etc. I'm certainly not saying you're incorrect, but I don't remember this happening much. I know Mathew's was out a few times due to injuries and brief substitutions, but for the most part, I remember those guys player the entire game. Did I miss an article or a reference to the contrary? My memory isn't the greatest, but I just don't recall our key defensive players sitting out nearly as much as you suggested. It seemed just like normal substitutions and "breathers" to me.
     
  6. DoddPower

    DoddPower Nick Perry is watching you, NFL QB's!

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    hah, that's true. I did try to acknowledge that in my post. I've heard a saying that one could put together an impressive highlight reel for ANY player. Perhaps it's better to look at their bad plays. But my point still remains. If he can play anything like he did in the highlight reel, he should be a really good player. The highlight reel certainly doesn't offer any proof that will, but he was definitely dominating his competition on those plays. Hopefully he finds a way to transfer that talent to Sunday's in the NFL.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    No didnt read..No real time yet

    But if your going to use the argument that they were not playing, you must have facts to show how much they missed so we can gauge how the D played with out them?

    Other wise it is just your word stating they didnt play and thats why the D gave up yards
     
  8. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    The D did create a lot of turnovers and obviously that's a good thing. It tells me two things:
    A) The D did produce SOME pressure and when it did they capitalized. Unfortunately, the stats show the pressure just didn't come often enough (shown by many stats but the 20+ yard plays allowed is BIG).
    B) There is some talent on D to get turnovers when the pressure upfront is not there. Personally, I don't think the DB's and CB's forgot how to play football. Losing Collins HURT and chasing receivers all over the field while the QB sat back there didn't help. Lastly, communication errors and totally botched coverage has to stop (see San Diego game).

    I don't care how or when we gave up all these yards and points. The bottom line is the D has to be better or it's highly unlikely they win it all. Yes, the schedule is in our favor and we should win the North and whatever but when you get into the post season good teams attack your weakness' and the D we put out last year will fail us again if it doesn't get better.
    In the North Cutler and Stafford have both shown a tendency to spaz when pressured to a point where they panic and lose games. However, they will light you up if they get it going. We won't sweep these teams if the D doesn't step up.

    Bottom line is we pissed away last year and need to lock down on the deficiencies or it will likely happen again and this team is too good not to put more SB wins in the record books. This is our time. It will be much harder to field a 53 like this once Rodgers and Mathews are locked down. We're getting the best of all worlds right now......so, get it done.
     
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  9. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Then how did we sweep them last year?
     
  10. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I don't think we're really that far apart. I would probably put the defense in that 21-25th range if I were to subjectively rank all teams per my own opinion. But I don't believe it's the result of major personnel issues. Most of these guys were on a top 10 defense just one year prior. There are some very specific things that needed addressed in order to get back toward the top.

    1) Fix the pass rush. Check. We have so many new pass rushers that at least 1 or 2 of them will make an impact.
    2) Get Tramon 100% healthy. Check.
    3) Find effective replacement for Collins. Remains to be seen. We have some good candidates though.
    4) Get Shields back to form after sophomore slump. Remains to be seen, but no reason to believe he can't do that. He did show flashes of his rookie self last year. He just didn't have the consistency for whatever reason.

    Even if only #1 on the list gets fixed, it will have a major effect across the board. A good defense with a broken pass rush is like a good engine with a busted water pump. They'll both break down on you, but in neither case is it necessary to rebuild the whole thing. I don't want to give the impression that I was happy with our defense last year. I wasn't. At times they frustrated the hell out of me. But it was easy to see where the problems were and they are indeed fixable. That's why I'm not really in a panic about it.
     
  11. DoddPower

    DoddPower Nick Perry is watching you, NFL QB's!

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    Yeah, well, I can't disagree with anything in the post above. I'm confident the defense will be better next season. I just wish it could have happened last season when they were relatively healthy on both sides of the ball. There's no telling what can happen next season, especially in regards to catastrophic injuries. I just hope Rodger's stays healthy.
     
  12. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    You and me both :(

    Let's not even go there. I can't imagine how bad we might be without him and Flynn to back him up. I just haven't seen anything out of Harrell yet that bodes any confidence. Maybe that'll change this year. Let's pray we don't have to find out!
     
  13. DoddPower

    DoddPower Nick Perry is watching you, NFL QB's!

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    Harrell certainly didn't look good throughout most of last preseason. Sure, I understand the variables (lesser talent around him, etc.), but still. He'll definitely needs to improve. Or perhaps even the rookie will pass him up.
     
  14. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    I'm excited about our re-vamped pass rush. I expect we will see a lot more hurries and knock-downs and I don't think 45 sacks is an unrealistic goal. CM3 will be back around 15 sacks and I think the rest of the defense can be counted on for the other 20. Agent P will take a lot of pressure off of CM3.
     
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  15. DoddPower

    DoddPower Nick Perry is watching you, NFL QB's!

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    I'm certainly not trying to argue here, but I just don't remember this being the case. Most of the time, excluding specific injuries, the Packer's seemed to operate by routine substitutions and breathers, not resting many players much of the 4th quarter. I didn't notice much difference from any other team. I can buy the last game of the season being an exception. Jennings was injured, Rodger's sat out. But Tramon, Bishop, Burnett, Shields, Hawk, Pickett, Raji, Walden, Nelson, Finley, Kuhn, Grant, Peprah, etc. all still played a decent amount. We just seem to remember different things I suppose. The Packer's only won 4 games by a 3-4 score margin (Broncos, Rams, Vikings once, and Raider's). Despite their impressive 15-1 regular season record, several games were pretty close.

    EDIT: Can anyone provide me with a link to statistics of how many snaps each player played? That could shed a little light on the situation. I have look around briefly, but my searches haven't been very fruitful so far.
     
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  16. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Could be. I just remember a lot of shots on the tube with CM3, Wood and others sitting back on the bench congratulating each other while their backups were on the field finishing the job, especially the last 7 minutes or so of a lot of games.
     
  17. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Why NFL.COM doesnt have accurate % or numbers is odd..

    To clear the air since some think I am being a "jerk"

    I took nfl.com stats to be accurate....I never knew they rounded them up..

    So GREEN's link proved other wise.. I was wrong..

    GREEN......I hope you see that...I am admitting your were right
     
  18. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I want that as well...To get a true indication of how the defense played when the normal starters were out, we need to know when they didnt play..

    You can go to nfl.com and look at play by play of games and see who made tackles, sacks, or what ever case maybe....But that really doesnt tell us who was still playing with 5 mins to go in 4th
     
  19. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Mike Daniels---

    Will he help??

    Will he not give a boost?

    Will we forget who he is after 2 years?

    Will he be a pro bowler?
     
  20. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Maybe.

    Not if he doesn't earn playing time.

    Possibly. Depends a lot on what Neal and Worthy do.

    Odds are against it.
     
  21. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Why do you have to make everything so personal?
     
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