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Khryi Thornton Thread

Discussion in '2014 Draft Archive' started by Wood Chipper, May 9, 2014.

  1. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    He may not select the players himself but it's *** backward to think he lacks the ability to express his personnel concerns to the General Manager. If the front office won't try to accommodate its coordinator, then he probably shouldn't be coaching here anyway...

    We're getting off track at this point. Perhaps we should continue this line of discussion in a more appropriate thread.
     
  2. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I was surprised by some comments made during the offseason saying the Packers will try to get more players fitting Capers scheme this offseason. This made me believe Capers doesn´t have a lot of influence into how the roster is set up.
     
  3. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    (1) Sources?
    (2) I don't know that a statement that the front office would like to get more players that fit Capers' scheme tells us anything about Dom's level of input in selecting personnel.
     
  4. wist43

    wist43 Cheesehead

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    No matter if he's getting the players he wants or not - he's certainly not playing the highly drafted players he's been given to good effect.

    TT has invested a lot in the DL, and he's invested next to nothing in LB's. Yet, Capers devises gameplans that feature 2 of the most pedestrian players available to him?? Daniels, D. Jones, Perry, et al, are standing on the sideline, while Hawk and Brad Jones never come off the field??

    There's no rationale that can make sense of that - even if he were only doing it in passing situations; but as has been painfully obvious, he plays the 2-4 in run/pass situations as well. He thinks nothing of throwing it out there on 1st and 10, 2nd and 6, and 3rd and 3 all the time!!!

    Against Chicago last year, in the final game?? Capers had the 2-4 on the field for both of Forte's TD runs!!! One from 5 yds out, and the other one from just 1 yd out!!! A goal line defense with just defensive linemen on the field?? What's wrong with that picture?? Of course Forte just walked in.

    Seriously, there can be no excuse for what Capers has been doing with the personnel. If it continues - which I fully expect it will, Thorton is a completely wasted pick... and if anyone does expect Thorton to play - again, who ya gonna sit??

    The problem isn't personnel, the problem is Capers. I would argue that B. Jones and AJ Hawk both need to be replaced - but of course TT loves those guys, and Capers plays them 24/7... that being the case - how does anyone expect anything will change with the defense??
     
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  5. Dylan Hoppe

    Dylan Hoppe Cheesehead

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    AJ hawk doesn't need to be replaced YET. Brad jones should be a second string for the remainder of his time in GB. But I like him as a back up. I think the Bradford will start as an OLB in camp and be moved. Same thing that happened with Lattimore of anyone remembers that. Only this guy will rip brad jones right out of the starting lineup and he will outplay AJ hawk too. This guy has the motor, the fire, to be a monster. It really gets me excited to imagine him, Clay, and peppers on the field all at once. As with this whole scheme thing you're talking about? You need to realize that capers LOVES speed. And if you've ever seen one of his defenses that has the right personnel, you would see his system works. There's players flying all over and blitzes coming from the least expected spots. The issue is that you're a fan, were all fans, not coaches. If you knew more about running a defense than capers, you'd have his job and wouldn't be talking to us on this forum. Not trying to pick on your post, but just watch: with this draft and with McCarthy giving dom more say in personnel, were gonna surprise this year


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  6. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    On Forte's first TD run, it had nothing to do with the entire right of the defense losing contain? That's not how Capers drew it up.

    The play right before the second, a big play by Jeffrey, the corner and safety left him WIDE open. If they didn't mess up so badly, the Bears wouldn't even have been on the one.

    Other examples too, like Bush rushing to far inside near the end of the 49ers game or the secondary giving up two TD's to the Eagles against double coverage. Both good calls, but both not executed well.

    Not saying that Capers doesn't have any fault, but to say the problem isn't at all personnel is completely inaccurate.
     
  7. wist43

    wist43 Cheesehead

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    Nah, not buyin it guys... I'm not the only one that sees it. A lot of the reporters ask tepid questions, that sniff around the edges of what really needs to be said and asked of TT and MM, i.e. questions and reporting that would expose Capers for the complete idiot he is, but they have to maintain a relationship with that coaching staff, so they don't step on toes or press the issues.

    It's not like Capers doesn't have a track record - if he were "all that", he wouldn't get fired everywhere he goes after 5 years.

    What you're seeing on the field is a complete mess - and you can point to some examples of players screwing up, but even an obvious player screw up has to come back to the responsibility of the general - Sun Tzu.

    That said, we are not Bush missing a tackle bad, or a safety taking a bad angle bad - we are the worst passing defense in NFL history bad in 2011; allowing an NFL record rushing yds to a QB bad in 2012; 31st in yds allowed in 2011, and 25th in yds allowed in 2013 bad; allowing 51 pts to the Cardinals in the playoffs bad; allowing 167 yds rushing/game bad in 2013; on and on...

    At some point, the general has to accept responsibility - I find it amazing that I am one of the few detractors in Packer Nation of this guy, when he has put up such unbelievably dismal results for years here. We got on a 7 game run in 2010, fueled by unbelievable QB play - and the defense did just enough to not screw it up - and you guys think that should give Capers a lifetime pass.

    I find that amazing.
     
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  8. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    The defense was top five in the league in 2010. Very good. Not just "did just enough to screw up."

    Not saying that should give him a lifetime pass, but if you're going to argue against him, at least do it with accurate information.
     
  9. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    It seems like your biggest problem with Capers is that he keeps Hawk and Jones on the field too much. There´s no doubt that both of them, while not being great by any means, are the two most talented ILBs on the roster. That´s not Capers fault but the personnel department.

    17 teams played a 3-4 defense in the NFL last season. The Packers played with two ILBs on the field for 82.7% of the defensive snaps. Only three teams (Buffalo, Kansas City and Pittsburgh) lined up with two ILBs on fewer occasions than the Packers. The 3-4 defenses which finished in the top 10 in yards and points allowed (Arizona, New Orleans, San Francisco) had two ILBs on the field for a combined 96.1% of the snaps.

    Having two impact ILBs on the field at all time is an essential part of having a succesful 3-4 defense, Capers having to play Hawk and Jones most of the time isn´t his fault.
     
  10. wist43

    wist43 Cheesehead

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    If we ran a 3-4, I wouldn't complain as much. I like the 3-4, problem is we don't run it much. We run a 2-4 so much, that it is really our base defense.

    On another site, someone took the time to find a study from the 2011 season that showed Capers ran a 2-4 front 62% of the time!!! That's nuts... no one else in the league was even close to that percentage; no one else was even close to 50%. Of note, we set an NFL record for pass defense futility that year.

    That said, what really kills me about the 2-4 and Capers running it on run/pass downs, is that if the offense actually runs the ball, we routinely get gashed in the running game. We gave up 200 yds rushing 3 times last year!!! and it wasn't b/c we were running a 3-4, it was b/c we were running a 2-4.

    Just watch the games and take note of how often he's in the 2-4 on first and 10, 2nd and 6, and 3rd and 3. It's mind numbing to watch.
     
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  11. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Just watched the Eagles game once again. The Packers lined up with three DL on only 8 snaps, all of them during the last drive of the game. With the defense knowing the Eagles would run the ball they allowed 52 yards on those runs (6.5 average).

    Seems like running a 3-4 didn´t help stop the run either.
     
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  12. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Fixing the defense isn't as simple as just running less 2-4. If fixing the defense was that simple, it would have been done by now.

    As far as 2011, since a 2-4 is basically a nickel and our pass defense was awful, being in that formation makes sense. If anything, playing in non passing formations would have made the pass defense worse.




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  13. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    The Packers also lined up to stop the run at the end of the Bears and Vikings home games and it didn't help at all. Don't know if was a 2-4 or 3-4, but either way it was to stop the run and it didn't work. That's not on the scheme. I'm in agreement with you that I don't think the 2-4 is a big issue.


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  14. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    I remember those games well, even when we lined up in run stopping sets we couldn't stop the run. It wasn't a schematic problem it was a problem in personnel. I would argue that the 24 Defenses the Packers were trotting out in the first several games of the season were better against the run than the 34 and Big Okie defenses used during the time of Rodgers absence.
     
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  15. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    A couple of FYI's:

    McCarthy stated in his press conference that the Packers have used the base defense on 24% of snaps over the last 5 season. Nickel frequency has been variously reported in the 62 - 68% frequency over the same period if memory serves. The other 8 - 14% would be various dime and hybrid configurations like single-down-linemen and zero-down-linemen ("psycho").

    In the post-draft pressers McCarthy said he sees Thornton as a 1 tech or 3 tech; when Thompson was asked if he sees him at base 5 tech his answer was along the lines of "sure, why not". As others have noted above, he's seen as a gap guy, not a classic 0 tech NT, which should be no surprise given his size.
     
  16. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    It seems like he´ll be competing with Jones, Worthy and maybe Boyd for snaps in various subpackages. Don´t expect a huge impact from him in his rookie season.
     
  17. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Yeah, it sounds like McCarthy has him pegged to compete for nickel 3-tech, a spot where we have a ton of guys who have played there or have been mentioned as possibilities there. We have run some base with an offset line from time-to-time, so we might see him a bit at 1 tech in base against certain matchups.

    My sense is the front 7 in 2014 is going to be an "everything including the kitchen sink" season in terms of alignments and substitutions especially given the number of guys who have played or been mentioned as elephant-OLB standup-5 tech-3 tech hybrids (Peppers, Neal, Perry, Jones) and the other guys who more closely fit the standard 3 tech / 5 tech mold, or as some might say 4-3 DTs, (Daniels, Worthy, Thornton), there are a lot of possible permutations, for good or ill.

    I suspect we're going to end up counting Peppers and Neal in the OLB group with 6 other guys in the D-Line group, without much 3-down play out of any of these guys. I would except Daniels to sit in base provided somebody can step up to play the weak side.
     
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  18. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    In the 2-4 set, Perry is still on the field rushing the passer....is the only problem that he's not putting his hand in the dirt?

    Raji has NOT been overused since three years ago, he's been on the field plenty in passing situations and produced approximately NOTHING in the pass rush department. Seriously, outside of a few games in the playoffs in 2010, when has he actually been a dominant pass rusher?

    In your preferred 4-2 pass defense set, you'd probably want Matthews and Perry as the guys rushing the QB along with Daniels and, Worthy/Jones...well guess what, those are the guys rushing the passer in the 2-4 set!
     
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  19. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    True, normally it´s Neal or Perry opposite of Matthews.
     
  20. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Yeah, the opponent does not give you his play in advance. Most teams still prefer to run to set up the pass (including Seattle and SF), and if you give them the run they will take it. Having ILBs who can step up and defend the run or drop in coverage as the play dictates is at the core of the 3-4 philosophy. And one of the ILBs should be particularly adept an covering the short-to-intermediate middle zone; it's the stress point in the 3-4 nickel zone.
     
  21. DarkHelmet

    DarkHelmet Cheesehead

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    This discussion is important, but, frankly it's making my head hurt. Makes me long for the days of classic 4-3 defense. Four strong, nasty Dlineman in front of three nasty, hard-hitting, sure-tackling LBs. A defensive backfield that can actually shut down receivers and make occasional picks. Like the '85 Bears defense, the '96 Packers defense, the old Purple People Eaters, The Rams fearsome foursome . . .

    I know the league has changed, but it was so great to have a front seven that would stay out there for every down, throttling the run, getting to the QB and striking fear into the hearts of offensive coordinators around the league.
     
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  22. wist43

    wist43 Cheesehead

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    Well, I don't hear any of you guys panning TT??

    If it isn't Capers, then it's the players. If it's the players, then TT needs to be fired - b/c that would mean, outside of Rodgers and the WR's, and hitting on Lacy last year - TT has stunk on top of stink in drafting the entire defense!!!

    That said, I don't think it is the players - I see all kinds of talent and ability there, it is simply being misused. Perry and Raji are the poster children for that - if rushing from OLB vs DE didn't matter - then why would he have even cared enough to say he didn't want to be drafted as a LB??

    There are so many more advantages to playing a 3-3 and a 4-2 to playing a 2-4, not the least of which is you have more size on the field to deal with the run and get push up the middle. We routinely get gashed with the run when we are in the 2-4.

    Next on the list of why the 3-3 and 4-2 are preferrable would be flexibility and creating confusion for the blocking scheme. In Capers 2-4, he rushes 4 guys, almost every snap... the same 4 guys, a static rush. I know what is coming presnap - you know the OL knows what's coming. The players get absolutely no assist from the DC in creating mismatches or creating confusion in the blocking scheme. It is mano-a-mano every snap.

    Most of the front seven talent TT has drafted is on the DL - yet most of those guys are standing on the sideline in critical situtations - while B. Jones and Hawk never come off the field... and most observers see both of those players as weaknesses to the defense.

    So if our highly drafted talent is standing on the sideline - and 2 of our most lightly regarded players right in the thick of it... how is that not a red flag for you guys??

    To be sure, the results have been a disaster... but you think it is all on the players??
     
  23. wist43

    wist43 Cheesehead

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    I missed a lot of the season due to health issues... if we were running a 3-4, there are varieties of the front that make a difference. Was it an Oakie, Indy, Under, or Solid?? What players were on the field??

    Do you have a link??
     
  24. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    Thompson deserves some of the blame as well. He hasn't brought in enough talent on the defensive side of the ball.

    Once again, take a look at the Eagles game, we weren't able to stop the run with three DLs on the field.

    A defense doesn't get more flexible by putting more DL on the field. They aren't capable of covering anyone, so it's not possible to drop them into coverage. That means they'll have to rush the passer. There are way more possibilites by putting LBs on the field calable of rushing the passer and drop into coverage.

    Once again, ILBs are an integral part in the success of a 3-4 defense. The problem is that Hawk and Jones aren't good enough.
     
  25. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Sorry about your health issues but it surprises me you are so adamant about how horrible Capers and the 2-4 are and now post you missed a lot of the season. And here's something to consider: There is no reason to think the problems on D have one cause. It can (and IMO is) a combination of the talent provided and the DC and his staff. You seem to have concluded the problems are all on Capers and then formulated your argument.

    IMO Capers job should be on the line this season. If we don't see significant improvement in the D he should be gone.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
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