Josh Jones wants out of Green Bay.....

H

HardRightEdge

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At this point, unless Jones does a convincing 180 in attitude and action, I view him as a lost sunk cost. So no, the only value left for the Packers to get out of him at this point is the value of sending a message that "players don't dictate what we do".

And if you can't sell his contract, decide that his cost is tolerable for other services in the contract, but he refuses to at least trim bushes or power wash your siding, do you let him walk or enforce the contract, blocking him from working for someone else during the life of the contract?
I'll conclude my side of this discussion, which would not have gone on this long were it not raining all day, by saying that's cutting off your nose to spite your face given that you have to pay him more money for the privilege of spite. I don't find that constructive.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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I'll conclude my side of this discussion, which would not have gone on this long were it not raining all day, by saying that's cutting off your nose to spite your face given that you have to pay him more money for the privilege of spite. I don't find that constructive.

Well if he doesn't report, you aren't spending anymore money and the only way you actually pay him his 3rd year salary is if he earns a spot on the 53 man. I wasn't implying putting him on the roster, paying him and then sitting his *** permanently on the bench.

A good one to agree to disagree on ;)

To be honest, I think that unless the media is reporting it wrong or Jones does a 180, Gute will cut him, if he can't find a trade partner.
 

Mondio

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I was mistaken in thinking the Steelers told brown to stay after he walked out of practice. Turns out he did it on his own, though they did tell him to leave when he showed up for the game. I hesitate to mention it should you insinuate I'm actually comparing brown and Jones LOL

and i'm never quoting you again, because it's apparently its an issue for you LOL

sometimes one just replies to the general theme of a thread and not a particular person. Sometimes thoughts and responses are formed after reading 10 or 15 replies from different people and just a flow of ill formed thoughts hits the screen. Not everyone here is looking to pick apart posts and argue with people you know :)
 
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HardRightEdge

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To be honest, I think that unless the media is reporting it wrong or Jones does a 180, Gute will cut him, if he can't find a trade partner.
Forgive my postscipt:

That's exactly what I said in the first place, with the 180 being some gobblygook about "miscommunication". And it should happen before the mandatory minicamp.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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49'ers Safety Jimmy Ward broke his collar bone diving for a ball today....there is your Josh Jones trade partner. :laugh:
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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Forgive my postscipt:

That's exactly what I said in the first place, with the 180 being some gobblygook about "miscommunication". And it should happen before the mandatory minicamp.
Well at least we are getting closer to resolving this. ;) I don't believe anything should happen on the Packers part until that minicamp and they force his hand. Unless some team wants to fork over a high draft pick for him, which won't be happening.
 
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But he got replaced quicker because he was a pick of the previous regime.

Actually that wouldn't be a smart way to handle roster decisions.

If they can't trade him and if he doesn't show up and actually work, but starts being a problem, i'd put him on a list if there is one, or just dismiss him from the team, stay away and pay him.

The Packers could put Jones on the did not report list if he doesn't show up for training camp. If that happens the team should keep him on it as long as he doesn't show up and cut his *** as soon as he does.
 

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The team would be best to trade him for a conditional pick that could be nothing or as high as a 6th say if he starts and a 7th if he makes a 53 man. Low risk for team taking him, and GB rids themselves of a potentially cancerous issue.
 

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Actually that wouldn't be a smart way to handle roster decisions.



The Packers could put Jones on the did not report list if he doesn't show up for training camp. If that happens the team should keep him on it as long as he doesn't show up and cut his *** as soon as he does.

It's a fact of the league. That's all I've been saying. Guys drafted by the previous regime get fewer opportunities. I understand it from both sides.
 
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HardRightEdge

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The Packers could put Jones on the did not report list if he doesn't show up for training camp. If that happens the team should keep him on it as long as he doesn't show up and cut his *** as soon as he does.
No-show fines begin with mandatory minicamp. The Packers are sheduled for 6/11 - 6/13. Last season, the fine was a flat $84,435 for any player skipping any or all of the three days. I don't know the amount for this year but it will be slightly higher given it has gone up along with the salary cap in the past.

For a guy like Jones that's a lot of dough, about 1/10 of his contracted take home pay for this season. Now, if I were a betting man, I'd say Jones will show up for that minicamp if he's not traded or cut already.

I'm with you. I'd cut him if he shows up, fine him if he doesn't, but we won't have to wait until training camp to find out. One caveat--if there is communication with Jones or his agent in advance to the affect that he definitely plans to to attend, then I'd cut him before he gets on the plane.
 
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H

HardRightEdge

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i can't believe his agent thought this was a good idea. lol
Jones was gung ho for the coming season before the draft. Things changed after Savage was drafted.

I'd presume Jones' agent first contacted Gutekunst a while ago asking for the trade. With no action having been taken, they go public to force the situation. "I don't want to be there, and now that I've gone public you don't want there."
 
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The team would be best to trade him for a conditional pick that could be nothing or as high as a 6th say if he starts and a 7th if he makes a 53 man. Low risk for team taking him, and GB rids themselves of a potentially cancerous issue.

Jones hasn't performed at a level that makes me believe another team would be interested in trading for him.

It's a fact of the league. That's all I've been saying. Guys drafted by the previous regime get fewer opportunities. I understand it from both sides.

My point is that the performance on the field should be the only thing that matters. The front office shouldn't care about who acquired a player.

No-show fines begin with mandatory minicamp. The Packers are sheduled for 6/11 - 6/13. Last season, the fine was a flat $84,435 for any player skipping any or all of the three days. I don't know the amount for this year but it will be slightly higher given it has gone up along with the salary cap in the past.

I wonder how those fines work. Would Jones have to pay that money to the Packers even if he ends up being cut resulting in him not getting any money from the team in 2019. In that case it's all but guaranteed that he will show up for minicamp.

Then it might be smart to release him before June 11.
 

Mondio

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Best case scenario, Jones does a 180, speaks to FO and Gute and says I was wrong. I'm here to work and do it. He proves his worth to his teammates by showing up and working hard every day at practice. It is best for him and it is best for the Packers for him to do that. At the very least he could actually prove his worth to another team, something I'd say he's hasn't done so far, or he proves to the Packers he deserves more playing time and gets it. With the amount of nickel and dime and sub packages, he could be on the field over 60% of the snaps on defense easily. and when it's time, he signs a bigger contract somewhere else for a full time gig. Like Hyde did. He didn't sit and complain. He played wherever they put him and he was rewarded for it. By another team, but that's how it works when you have 2 starters at your position ahead of you.

Jones has time to fix this for himself. But telling the league you don't want to compete for playing time is a death knell in this league.

and if his attitude doesn't change, he'd be cut before he could make the 53 or before depending on how big of a problem he is.
 
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Best case scenario, Jones does a 180, speaks to FO and Gute and says I was wrong. I'm here to work and do it. He proves his worth to his teammates by showing up and working hard every day at practice. It is best for him and it is best for the Packers for him to do that.

I highly doubt that will happen as Jones has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't want to put in the work necessary to receive playing time.
 

Mondio

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I didn’t call it a likely outcome, just said that would be best for both parties. Jones would maximize his ability as a player for here or somewhere else, and GB would maximize his value to the team either thru player production or trade value.

Right now, they both lose
 

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Jones hasn't performed at a level that makes me believe another team would be interested in trading for him.



My point is that the performance on the field should be the only thing that matters. The front office shouldn't care about who acquired a player.



I wonder how those fines work. Would Jones have to pay that money to the Packers even if he ends up being cut resulting in him not getting any money from the team in 2019. In that case it's all but guaranteed that he will show up for minicamp.

Then it might be smart to release him before June 11.

You're welcome to that opinion, but I'm talking about how it is, not how it should be.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I wonder how those fines work. Would Jones have to pay that money to the Packers even if he ends up being cut resulting in him not getting any money from the team in 2019. In that case it's all but guaranteed that he will show up for minicamp.

Then it might be smart to release him before June 11.
After perusing the CBA on yet another rainy day, I come up with the following:

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf
  • I have to correct a point I made earlier which I based on defective professional reporting about specific no-show players last year. It is not a flat fine for any one or all days missed at mandatory minicamp. There's a fine for each day missed that escalates. The CBA (page 185) stipulates for 2019 fines of $14,775 for day 1, $29,550 for day 2, $44,325 for day 3 for a total of $88,650.
  • The standard player contract in Appendix A of the CBA (page 260) states the following:
Any advance made to Player will be repaid to Club, and any properly levied Club fine or Commissioner fine against Player will be paid, in cash on demand or by means of deductions from payments coming due to the Player under this contract, the amount of such deductions to be determined by Club unless this contract or any collective bargaining agreement in existence during the term of this contract specifically provides otherwise.​
  • So, it would appear the Packers could simply demand cash payment if Jones is a no show and is cut. What if he doesn't send the check? I don't see anything specific about recourse in that case, though there may be something about that buried in this 300 page document or subsequent adendums. Can the league require that the fine be deducted from his subsequent contract with another team? I don't know. One thing is clear. He would owe the money.
So, we have a player who has rightly perceived that he has been demoted with the drafting of Savage. He clearly is not interested in competing for a job, any job, by a demand to be traded made public and not showing up for voluntary minicamp. This is not some "crime of passion". It's been a month since the draft. This is premeditated. One way or another, this is not a guy I want to have around.

If he plans to attend mandatory minicamp, which he should given the amount of the fines relative to his pay, and he's not traded by then, I sure as heck don't want to reward him by paying his travel expenses, his minicamp per diem, and avoidance of a fine. Again, I say cut him before he gets on the plane if he expresses clear intent to show up.

If he states clearly he's not showing up to mandatory minicamp? I cut him right then. If his intent is unclear? I cut him the minute it starts, levying the one day fine. The message in these cases would be "team" is more important than leveling $73,875 - $88,600 in fines. At the same time, waiting for the end of minicamp to levy the full boat of fines would appear petty and spiteful. I say act on the guiding principle of "team".

 
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D

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I didn’t call it a likely outcome, just said that would be best for both parties. Jones would maximize his ability as a player for here or somewhere else, and GB would maximize his value to the team either thru player production or trade value.

There's no reason to believe Jones would increase his value for another team by showing up to practice in Green Bay. He didn't achieve that while playing more than 1,200 snaps on defense over the past two seasons.

You're welcome to that opinion, but I'm talking about how it is, not how it should be.

I highly doubt it is the way you think though.

If he states clearly he's not showing up to mandatory minicamp? I cut him right then.

Actually I would prefer the Packers to hold on to Jones if he makes it clear that he doesn't show up for minicamp. Collect the fine and send a message to other players that they can't force the team's hand by not showing up.
 

Mondio

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again, I didn't say it was the likely scenario, I said it was the best. and does a guy have a chance to get better and show it by practicing and going thru TC and preseason games or sitting at home? which is the best scenario for that to happen in?
 
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and does a guy have a chance to get better and show it by practicing and going thru TC and preseason games or sitting at home? which is the best scenario for that to happen in?

You're definitely right that Jones would have a chance to improve by showing up for practice but that would be hardly enough to increase his trade value after teams have enough tape of him.

Especially considering he rather quit than put in the necessary work to possibly receive more playing time.
 

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at this point I don't consider him to have quit. I mean I do, i'm not impressed with his choices right now, but some time will pass and he'll have a chance to make it better not worse. While I think what he did was stupid from almost any angle, I think there is time to recover from it. At this point I don't think he has any value at all. After a preseason game or 2 and some improvement, anything from a 5th -7th might at least be possible. Or he decides to work as hard as he can at being a role player for a season or 2 and the best special teams ace he can be for us. Once he draws that line during mandatory camps, his chances to do the right think shrink considerably.
 

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There's no reason to believe Jones would increase his value for another team by showing up to practice in Green Bay. He didn't achieve that while playing more than 1,200 snaps on defense over the past two seasons.



I highly doubt it is the way you think though.



Actually I would prefer the Packers to hold on to Jones if he makes it clear that he doesn't show up for minicamp. Collect the fine and send a message to other players that they can't force the team's hand by not showing up.

It pretty obviously is.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Actually I would prefer the Packers to hold on to Jones if he makes it clear that he doesn't show up for minicamp. Collect the fine and send a message to other players that they can't force the team's hand by not showing up.
Anybody who wants out this badly because he does not like his diminished role should be accomodated. Taking the approach you and others have suggested says, in affect, other guys who want out just as badly should keep it to themselves. I'd want to know who they are and would try to accomodate them. A guy in a similar situation would be Fackrell, with Smith, Smith and Gary jumping ahead of him on the depth chart. If Jones was traded or cut fine-free, thereby emboldening Fackrell to a "me too" moment, I'd oblige him as well.

Now, we can't expect anybody to be "Packers, do or die". It's a business, so goes the cliche. I'm sure there are a lot of guys on the roster who are playing for that second contract, wherever it might land them, which is what this is about, Jones wanting to be where he can get those needed snaps. But if a guy publicly demands to be traded and then doesn't show up, he has made clear he doesn't want to "do his job". You don't want those guys around. Letting them be around so you can fine them and then cut them is, as I said earlier, simply spite and a deterrent that smells like fear: "If that's the way you feel, don't embarrass me. I don't want to know about it." That's no way to run a railroad.

It's really a no win situation created by Jones. I'd take the high ground which is "team first, do your job".

We've heard a lot about accountability in the last couple of years. I think it started with the Randall incident. His tantrum was a public affront to the coaches and "do your job". It probably wasn't his first incident that could be attributed to a "crime of passion" in the heat of the battle. The players leadership council, by whatever name they give it, recommended Randall be traded. McCarthy and Thompson opted for damage control because of lack of options on the roster, whatever trouble he might cause or failure to do his job is better than the next man up. That was a mistake.

Gutekunst didn't waste much time in trading Randall. He didn't bother waiting around for the draft to see if he could land a replacement. That would have been lame. As soon an Clinton-Dix did his "I don't think I'm not going to be here next year" routine, a public expression that he was not happy playing without an extention, he got traded faster than his head could spin.

If what we want is accountability and not trying to bury discontent through some kind of deterrent threat, then Gutekunst should trade him or cut bait at the earliest opportunity.
 

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