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Jimmy Graham

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by thequick12, Jul 7, 2014.

  1. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    You are mixing apples and oranges adam..... Arod did not pull some disgruntled crap like Graham is, Arod was made an offer (with some negotiating I am sure), but there is a difference...... do you see it? Graham was offered 7+ million PLUS bonuses..... Now TJV posted above that Graham made 1.3 million last season. I can agree that he didn't make much at 1.3 for his value to the team, BUT.... going from 1.3 to 7+ Bonuses = almost a 700% increase in pay. A DAMN FINE RAISE. If he aint happy with that, he is a money grubber imo and not dedicated to the team.
     
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  2. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    oh yeah, I would take an 80% pay increase, but in the real world which we live in, how long do you think your position would last if you made 80% more for doing the same job? Not long once the company figures out they are losing money for the same production. The NFL can't be compared to a normal 9-5 job by any means. Look at grahms offer: who the hell else in the real world gets a 700% raise offer? No damn body that's who.
     
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  3. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    That's the problem. He's not doing the same job as all the other TE's. He's doing the job of most of the receivers.

    Just like with your LB/CB example earlier if the LB leads the team in INT's. Well, if he's playing his position and catching tips off of RB's or cutting off crossing routes in the middle and getting INT's, he's not going to have a very strong argument for getting paid like a CB. He's going to probably have an argument for getting paid like a very good LB.

    But if he's lining up outside and constantly covering the opposing team's #1/#2 WR, you bet he's got a great argument for being called a corner and being paid like a top corner.
     
  4. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    I understand what Graham does, but I also understand what he is. Does he deserve more money that what he was making, YES, but he was offered a more than reasonable raise yet still is being difficult. I just cannot fathom being that difficult when an employer has made a lucrative offer. Is it the best offer, probably not, but the saints have other players to look out for just as all teams do. He needs to be more of a team player and a realist and understand his % of a raise is good. I also understand that his agent may also be pushing and prodding for more.
     
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  5. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Graham at least has an argument with solid evidence to back him up. Whether Graham should be paid like a TE or WR is no way compares to kickers as all kickers are 100% without a doubt a kicker. No kicker in the league can argue that he's actually another position.
     
  6. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    That is true, no argument there..... I was referring to what was said about guys getting paid outside of their position. People need to realize that you need to do what is best for the team and yourself and make that middle of the road compromise. Plain and simple: His offer was more than reasonable, yet he remains unreasonable. He is not a team player and NOT someone I would want on the packers.
     
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  7. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Yes I certainly do. Can you see that $7M for Graham is not fair market value for his contributions, considering Finley made over $7M each of the last 2 years?

    You are attaching some arbitrary percentage increase as your basis for a "fair offer". That is not how market value works. Randall Cobb is making $812,648 this season. Does that mean we can offer him a 700% raise on an extension, for an average value of $5.68M a year, and he's a money grubber who isn't dedicated to the team if he doesn't take it? No, it certainly does not.
     
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  8. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    LOL. I asked you why isnt Reggie! I think you should take your own advice.

    Reggie sues the NFL, establishes modern FA, cashes in by signing the 3rd biggest contract in the league. Behind 2 all pro QBs. Yet for some reason you do not feel thats "money grubbing". Just like Jimmy he thinks he is worth more than his position has previously allotted.

    Chris Johnson is a washed up RB. Less about his positional value, is his future value (low).
     
  9. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I just don’t understand the “money grubber not dedicated to the team” charge. Rodgers, Brees, Matthews, and every other highly paid NFL player could have accepted less to benefit the team. (BTW, the Rodgers example was regarding different levels of being highly paid at one’s position, not the acrimony of negotiations.)

    I’ll bet the crux of the negotiations is over the level of guaranteed money in the contract. Graham received a four-year, $2.445M contract as a third round choice and he’s been very, very good from his second year on. This may be the last time he can cash in on his talent. I don’t begrudge him negotiating to get as much as he can any more than I do any other pro athlete (except those under contracts), or any more than I begrudge a band earning millions of dollars per concert.

    BTW, Finley is a great comparison. And if Graham had made $8M last year, would only a 50% or 75% increase (as opposed to 700%) be OK?
     
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  10. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    By the way, a raise from $1.3M to $7M is a 538% raise, not a 700% raise. That's a pretty substantial difference, percentage-wise.

    Not that it really matters. Market value (for a FA) is determined by your value in relation to your peers, not by a certain amount or percentage over your previous year salary.
     
  11. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    My issue is that the guys like rodgers and matthews were made more than reasonable offers, CM3 especially and they didn't hold out or become disgruntled and make a drama queen type display. Grahams offer is a major pay raise, yet it is not enough? My God, C'mon....... You may also be able to make an argument to some extent that graham is an impact player,YES, but does having drew brees as his QB make him better? What if all this went even more sour? What if he went to some other team like ....ummm.....the Jags. I can almost bet you he would be making 10+ million per season and have half the production due to having a garbage QB. Kinda like a certain guy named Jennings did......although his money offer was not a major difference, he is not as good once you take Arod out of the situation.....Ponder helped prove that.

    We all see things differently, and have different opinions. But you cannot deny the facts when it comes down to it.
    A) it was decided he is a TE
    B) His offer was a 700% increase and was more than likely a team friendly offer which he snubbed his nose at
    C) what good is this doing for the team? none
     
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  12. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    Add in his bonus money which was not declared that I know of.... just a reasonable guess that it was kinda fat.
     
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  13. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    Okay then!!!

    Marcedes lewis - 6.7 mil per year

    Greg olson- 5.25 mil per year

    Jason whiten- 5.0 mil per year

    Antonio gates - 5.0 mil per year

    Martellius bennett - 4.8 mil per year

    Rob gronk 3.75 mil per year

    Soooooo....... how does 7.035 mil per year + bonuses not compare well to his peers? These listed are his TOP paid peers........ argument settled IMO.

    http://www.spotrac.com/rankings/nfl/tight-end/
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
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  14. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Generally agree with the sentiment, but we sent the Giants a 6th for Ryan Grant.
     
  15. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Well for one thing you severely understated the values as you listed only base salary. Gronk, Witten, VD, Davis, Gates, and Cook are all averaging over $7M per year.

    http://overthecap.com/top-player-salaries.php?Position=TE

    Secondly, I will list the stats for the last 3 years for the players you listed:

    Lewis - 116 REC, 1,359 YDS, 8 TD's
    Olsen - 187 REC, 2,199 YDS, 16 TD's
    Witten - 262 REC, 2,832 YDS, 16 TD's
    Gates - 190 REC, 2,188 YDS, 18 TD's
    Bennett - 137 REC, 1,529 YDS, 10 TD's
    Gronkowski, 184 REC, 2,709 YDS, 30 TD's

    Graham, 270 REC, 3,507 YDS, 36 TD's

    He has more TD's than Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, and Dez Bryant during that time period. He has 36 less yards than Dez, and more receptions than Green or Dez.

    Do you really think guys like Marcedes Lewis and Martellus Bennett are his "comparable peers"?
     
  16. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Perhaps Graham's agent can use this as negotiating tool: 'See, even this guy who thinks my client is a money grubber says he's worth $10M+ per season on the open market!' ;) I think you've summarized Graham's point of view.
    IMO A is irrelevant regarding the negotiations, B may or may not be a fact but IMO it's been well refuted, and as a Packers fan I'm all for C.
     
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  17. Passepartout

    Passepartout August Preseason!

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    Deadline to sign up for new deal is July 15th a week from today. But doubt he will be able to kiss and make up by that time with the Saints.
     
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  18. Forderick

    Forderick Cheesehead

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    If the Saints use the Franchise Tag, he will be paid as a TE. That is just how it works, but the Saints can pay him anything they see fit. And don't kid yourself, he is a WR. He doesn't block all he does is catch passes. He is more a WR than he is a TE, he is only a TE by title.

    Not all NFL players make crazy money, a lot of them go broke paying their medical bills after they are done playing. you can see it as money grubbing but i see it as someone wanting to make sure he and his family are set because those medical bills don't pay themselves. And why is it okay for the team to cut a guy at any point and not owe him anything from the contract he signed but a player is supposed to be loyal and take an offer he feels isn't good enough for what he brings to a team?

    I am not saying Jimmy Graham is worth 10+ million dollars, and I know i wouldn't pay that kind of money for him. If the Saints don't pay him what he wants, some other team will. the ball is in the Saints court, I say tag him and trade him. But I can't blame him for trying to get the best deal possible.
     
  19. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    Really!!!??? lol ..... I knew this man..... that was nothing new. But if you buy a corvette and put on a set of Lambo doors does that make it a Lambo? No, its still a vette. Weather or not he play more like a WR and lines up like one, a WR he is not..... He is a TE, he should be paid as such..... end of story.
    Almost the same type of position switch-o can be said for the way that they used Darren sproles. He was a RB, but that dude was used to catch more check down passes than anyone else I have ever seen. So should he have gotten paid like a WR too?
     
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  20. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    Ummm YES !!! They are also TE's and I listed them in order of pay because YOU were the ones that said "Market value (for a FA) is determined by your value in relation to your peers" His peers are the highest paid TE's. If he wants to get paid like a WR, then he should wait out his time with the saints and go into the FA market and find some team willing to pay him what he thinks he is worth. I don't know the process of changing your position title, but I would think it is very possible once he hits the open market to be advertised as a WR.
     
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  21. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Curious why Graham has to help his owner (who is already obscenely wealthy) make more money? I mean, that's all a "take less for the team" contract really is, a way for the owner of the team to make even more money. Why do the players always have to be the ones to take the paycut? Why can't the owner hold the GM more responsible for not signing poor contracts that prevent the team from signing Graham?


    QB play does have an impact in how a player performs but why should good players be penalized because they have good QBs? Your comments on Jennings show a curious disregard for the historical facts about Jennings. He played with a TERRIBLE quarterback the entire year in Minnesota yet he wasn't too terribly far off his production from 2011, when he played with a GREAT quarterback (he played fewer games in 2011 but only had 5 fewer targets since the Packers throw the ball so much more). Tom Brady is a pretty good quarterback yet he looked downright pedestrian last year with Gronk out of the lineup.

    The Saints have, reportedly, offered Graham a deal that averages $9.5m per year. That would place him, salary wise, behind Dwayne Bowe and Mike Wallace, two guys who both recently signed deals and two guys who I'm sure most would say are not the caliber of player that Graham is. Just because Graham is labeled a TE doesn't mean his talent, and compensation, should ONLY be compared to other tight ends. Graham's contract should be based on what teams are willing to pay and I can guarantee that teams would be willing to pay more for Graham than Mike Wallace or Dwayne Bowe.
     
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  22. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    Right on, ivo. Negotiating with position in mind also ignores the way the importance of certain positions changes as the sport continues to evolve.

    Watch a Saints game: Graham is usually the first, second, and sometimes third read on passing downs. The degree to which Brees relies on Graham as a target is silly. Defenses have to scheme around him and, for all intents and purposes, he's Megatron running a different route tree. It only makes sense that he would like to be paid like one of the most valuable receiving options in the league (he is!).

    I'm confused by all the animosity toward a player looking after his best interests from the "He's a TE- See, an Arbitration Board even Said So!" crowd. Talk about confusing title for substance. I understand the importance of the label within the collective bargaining agreement (i.e., the franchise tag) but Graham's objection to having his salary capped under this agreement shouldn't be treated like some sort of moral blemish on Graham's part.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
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  23. Forderick

    Forderick Cheesehead

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    Why should he be paid as TE. just because that is the position he plays? The Saints can pay him anything they want.
    He is, aside from Brees, the mvp on offence. and if you would stop looking at strictly based on position and see what he brings to the team, he would be worth a lot more than the top TE is paid. But you are right lets not think outside the box and keep being so closed minded simply because he is listed as a TE.

    Darren Sproles is a good player but he isn't anywhere near the top of his position or any position. so that comparison doesn't work. Now if you wanted to use Marshall Faulk as an example that would be a better argument.

    If a player is really valuable to a team, it shouldn't matter what position he plays to determine what he gets paid. its the easy way of doing things but offences are evolving somewhat and the pay structure should too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  24. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    according to the players countdown, graham is rated higher in 2014 than Rodgers. lol
     
  25. NorthWestCheeseHead

    NorthWestCheeseHead Cheesehead

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    Jimmy Graham was the 13th best pass catcher last year. Surrounded by the likes of Decker (11-T), Gordon (11-T), Nelson (14-T), Boldin (14-T), Douglas (14-T). Don't those guys make similar $ to what Graham was offered, give-or-take a few, considering he wanted to be paid like a WR.
     
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