Half time adjustments myth or real

mradtke66

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We could also talk about the 2000 season for the Patriots, the year before Brady took over as the starting QB in 2001, when starter Drew Bledsoe went down with an injury in the 2nd game of the season.

In 2000, Brady was 4th on the depth chart and the team went 5-11. In 2001, after Brady took over as the starter, the team went 11–3 and ended up winning the SB, with Brady at QB. I would actually contend, that in that year, Brady might have been a big difference?

I know fans love to debate Tom Brady and his legacy, earned or not. While I am not a huge Tom Brady fan, when you talk about winning it all, it is very hard not to include Brady in that conversation.

My issue is two-fold. First, we have the age old one. QBs get too much credit when things go right, too much blame when things go wrong. Second, we sport fans have the Madonna/***** complex issue with players. You're either an All-Pro/Future HoF or you're trash.

I think Brady is an excellent quarterback--you can't survive in this league as a start as long as he has being anything less. At the same time, he's won against teams with superior quarterbacks because his defense has been other worldly. To *also* be fair, the list of quarterbacks I'd rather have is pretty small--Manning, Rodgers, Mahomes...probably 1 or 2 I'm forgetting. It's a *VERY* small, but it does it exist.
 

milani

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Usually what appears to be an adjustment is a series of tweeks made by the assistants that are being formulated in the first half. A change in the playback is dictated by the score, time on the clock, injuries, and simply because what you are doing is not working. With that said Lombardi did not change the game plan in those 3 or 4 minutes but his voice inflection at intermission definitely impacted the second half.
 

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My issue is two-fold. First, we have the age old one. QBs get too much credit when things go right, too much blame when things go wrong. Second, we sport fans have the Madonna/***** complex issue with players. You're either an All-Pro/Future HoF or you're trash.

I think Brady is an excellent quarterback--you can't survive in this league as a start as long as he has being anything less. At the same time, he's won against teams with superior quarterbacks because his defense has been other worldly. To *also* be fair, the list of quarterbacks I'd rather have is pretty small--Manning, Rodgers, Mahomes...probably 1 or 2 I'm forgetting. It's a *VERY* small, but it does it exist.
Oh no doubt and I agree with you. Would all those QB's that people put ahead of Brady, have won just as many, less or more than Brady won, had they been on those Patriot teams? We really will never know. While I don't like to equate a Super Bowl win to that making any one player great, it is pretty hard to not talk about it when it comes to Brady. Bill B. deserves a ton of the credit for all of the Patriots success in the last 20+ years as well.
 
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GreenNGold_81

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To be the GOAT you also have to be clutch. Brady remains the best at that.

Tom Brady has 46 4th quarter comebacks. 14 post season game winning drives.
Aaron Rodgers has 21 (worse than Carr, Stafford and even Cutler) and 4 of these were this year alone. And just TWO post season game winning drives.
Favre had 28 4th quarter comebacks.
Peyton 43 4th quarter comebacks..

Obviously lots plays into a comeback, especially defensive play, but you still have to make the plays in front of you and score points.

From my eye I'd take prime Peyton as the GOAT, Brady is right there with him though. Rodgers, unfortunately with his play of late is a tier below. Just my opinion.

edit: link for reference: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/comebacks_career.htm
 
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milani

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Oh no doubt and I agree with you. Would all those QB's that people put ahead of Brady, have won just as many, less or more that Brady won, had they been on those Patriot teams? We really will never know. While I don't like to equate a Super Bowl win to that making any one player great, it is pretty hard to not talk about it when it comes to Brady. Bill B. deserves a ton of the credit for all of the Patriots success in the last 20+ years as well.
BB deserves a ton of credit. He built great coaching staffs that prepared players each week for that one game. He made average players better. And good ones a lot better. And players wanted to play for him. When Randy Moss lamented leaving NE that tells you it was a winning environment.
 

Schultz

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To be the GOAT you also have to be clutch. Brady remains the best at that.

Tom Brady has 46 4th quarter comebacks. 14 post season game winning drives.
Aaron Rodgers has 21 (worse than Carr, Stafford and even Cutler) and 4 of these were this year alone. And just TWO post season game winning drives.
Favre had 28 4th quarter comebacks.
Peyton 43 4th quarter comebacks..

Obviously lots plays into a comeback, especially defensive play, but you still have to make the plays in front of you and score points.

From my eye I'd take prime Peyton as the GOAT, Brady is right there with him though. Rodgers, unfortunately with his play of late is a tier below. Just my opinion.
I seem to remember reading one time that Rodgers led QBs in tying or lead changing 4th quarter scoring drives. Something like that. Combine that with your above stat and that is all you need to know about the defenses he had to play with.
 

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I seem to remember reading one time that Rodgers led QBs in tying or lead changing 4th quarter scoring drives. Something like that. Combine that with your above stat and that is all you need to know about the defenses he had to play with.
Not really sure what you are alluding to, but Rodgers is tied for 28th in 4th Q. comebacks.

 

GreenNGold_81

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An interesting correlation would be salary vs. 4th quarter comeback performance. I don't anticipate Rodgers doing too well.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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An interesting correlation would be salary vs. 4th quarter comeback performance. I don't anticipate Rodgers doing too well.
Considering he is tied for 28th on the list, without money being taken into consideration and when he signed his extension, he became the highest paid player ever, yeah, you are safe in that assumption.
 

mradtke66

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I seem to remember reading one time that Rodgers led QBs in tying or lead changing 4th quarter scoring drives. Something like that. Combine that with your above stat and that is all you need to know about the defenses he had to play with.

Perfect example of that was 2009 vs. the Steelers, @GreenNGold_81

Rodgers leads a beautiful drive and takes the lead, not once, BUT TWICE in the 4th quarter. Both times, the defense laid an egg. ESPN's game summary of the situation is beautiful:

The Packers (9-5) stalled in their playoff run as they couldn't hold leads of 28-27 and 36-30 in a frantic fourth quarter that was much like Oakland's 27-23 win in Pittsburgh two weeks ago, when the lead changed hand five times in the final nine minutes.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Rodgers leads a beautiful drive and takes the lead, not once, BUT TWICE in the 4th quarter. Both times, the defense laid an egg. ESPN's game summary of the situation is beautiful:
I'm probably wrong, but it seems like more times than not, the defense has soiled the bed numerous times in the 4th Q and OT in close games.
 

mradtke66

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I'm probably wrong, but it seems like more times than not, the defense has soiled the bed numerous times in the 4th Q and OT in close games.

At minimum, it feels that way to me too.

And brings us back full circle. The QB getting too much blame because the defense didn't hold up their end of the bargain.
 

rmontro

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Well, I don't know if it's true or not, that teams don't make adjustments at halftime. In any case, I always thought it was the coaches making the adjustments, not the quarterbacks. But if it's true, that explains a lot about the lack of adjustments over the years from the Packers.

Maybe Peyton Manning's lack of halftime adjustments explains why he won so few SBs compared to Brady. The Patriots were able to make adjustments during those 13 minutes:
It would make sense that Belichick would insist on him and his coaches making halftime adjustments, whether or not other teams do. But the rest of your post simply reminds me that Peyton and Eli both won more Super Bowls than Favre or Rodgers :mad::poop:
 

GreenNGold_81

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At minimum, it feels that way to me too.

And brings us back full circle. The QB getting too much blame because the defense didn't hold up their end of the bargain.

You'd have to go through each missed 4th q opportunity to make that claim.
 

mradtke66

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It would make sense that Belichick would insist on him and his coaches making halftime adjustments, whether or not other teams do. But the rest of your post simply reminds me that Peyton and Eli both won more Super Bowls than Favre or Rodgers :mad::poop:

I think you're getting hung up on "halftime" and not focusing enough on "adjustments."

If you're not taking in data after each drive and adjusting, all the while waiting until halftime, you're going to have a bad time.

Edit: Or put another way, what can you do at halftime that you cannot do on the side after the first drive? After the second?
 
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That is a big credit to Bill B and the Pats organization for sure, but still shouldn't detract from what Brady has accomplished either. Sometimes a good offense can help make a defense better and vice versa.

The Packers rank third in points scored in the league since Rodgers took over as the starter. If the last sentence would be true that should have happened for them as well.

Similar case in point: The year before Brady arrived, the Bucs missed the playoffs by (iirc) 1 win. Their quarterback threw 30 ints that year. The team was so stacked, they almost drug a 30 int QB to the playoffs.

On top of it Winston had seven interceptions returned for a TD that season.

We could also talk about the 2000 season for the Patriots, the year before Brady took over as the starting QB in 2001, when starter Drew Bledsoe went down with an injury in the 2nd game of the season.

In 2000, Brady was 4th on the depth chart and the team went 5-11. In 2001, after Brady took over as the starter, the team went 11–3 and ended up winning the SB, with Brady at QB. I would actually contend, that in that year, Brady might have been a big difference?

Bledsoe actually played all 16 games in 2000 but went down after two games the following season with Brady taking over.

There's no doubt the Patriots offense improved with Brady. Their defense played a huge role in winning the Super Bowl as well though.

To be the GOAT you also have to be clutch. Brady remains the best at that.

Tom Brady has 46 4th quarter comebacks. 14 post season game winning drives.
Aaron Rodgers has 21 (worse than Carr, Stafford and even Cutler) and 4 of these were this year alone. And just TWO post season game winning drives.
Favre had 28 4th quarter comebacks.
Peyton 43 4th quarter comebacks..

You need to consider that since Rodgers became the starter the Packers trailed in the fourth quarter in the second fewest games among all teams.

Therefore he has had less chances to most other QBs at fourth quarter comebacks.

You'd have to go through each missed 4th q opportunity to make that claim.

I will try to figure out a way to analyze that data, might take some time though.
 

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The Packers rank third in points scored in the league since Rodgers took over as the starter. If the last sentence would be true that should have happened for them as well.
At times Rodgers did have a good defense, but yes most of the time, not so much. My statement was that a good offense can make a defense better, didn't say anything about making a crappy defense good enough to win the big games. ;)
 

LambeauLombardi

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B4 anyone gets ******* in a bunch

Dont we always hear from a lot of different posters here

They made no adjustments

Announcers " make adjustments"

Now 2 nfl qb say it's bs and a myth

Do a search here and see how many says half time adjustments
What you're saying is absolutely true. Players probably just use the restroom, adjust their pads, take a needle, and get out there. I'm guessing coaches do actually take a moment to re-calibrate and find different ideas especially if they are down double digits.
 

Mondio

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I think it's all word parsing for the most part. They adjust all game long. There probably isn't any radical philosophy shift at halftime where they sit everyone down and say "ok team, scrap that, we're going to do this instead"
It's probably not a lot different than what occurs all game long from a coaches perspective or a players. Besides, how can you have a team meeting waiting for the star RB to finish taking a dump? It's only 15 minutes.
 

Half Empty

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Maybe so about the 'not enough time', 'should be adjusting all along', et. al. Just wondering what causes some of the games we see in which the second half in 180 degrees out from the first.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Maybe so about the 'not enough time', 'should be adjusting all along', et. al. Just wondering what causes some of the games we see in which the second half in 180 degrees out from the first.
Refocused and redirected. Much like some teams call a timeout before a crucial play. Many of us used to complain that Capers never made adjustments at halftime, I think he probably tried, but towards the later half of his career, they just weren't effective. I also think coaches revert back to their game plans or way of thinking in certain situations. For instance, how many times have we seen the Packers get a big lead and suddenly the defense is playing soft and couldn't stop a team of blind squirrels from burying their nuts in the end zone.
 

Sunshinepacker

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At times Rodgers did have a good defense, but yes most of the time, not so much. My statement was that a good offense can make a defense better, didn't say anything about making a crappy defense good enough to win the big games. ;)

One time he had an elite defense. Just once. 2010, when they won the Super Bowl. Just imagine having THAT defense, like, ten times over Rodgers' career. Things would have been a LOT different.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Maybe so about the 'not enough time', 'should be adjusting all along', et. al. Just wondering what causes some of the games we see in which the second half in 180 degrees out from the first.

Sample sizes. 30 plays can be really sensitive to something unexpected happening, like a flase start or a fumble, which throws off quite a bit over just one half. Also, I think, as Torrey Smith said, things that were in the gameplan get forgotten in the heat of the moment during the game but once coaches have a chance to step away for a few minutes, they can refocus and get back to some of the things they planned to do but didn't.
 

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