Goodbye Crosby?!

[Poppa San]

Moot not mute

We don't point out incorrect spelling or grammar here.

 

[rmontro]

See here is the problem. I have to my recollection never weighed in on the Mason Crosby does or does not kick enough touchbacks.

This is what confuses me. When we drafted Crosby, he was known for having a strong leg, and could kick it through the uprights from the kickoff line. I know he's not as young as he used to be, but are we really to believe he is incapable of kicking it out of, or into the back of the endzone? Because I don't believe it. The coaches must be telling him to kick it high as a priority.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

That's actually Bisaccia's call and he has a history of wanting returns and trusting his coverage teams to give them better field position. He likes his kickoffs high and right at the goal line.

With the number of penalties on return teams, fumbles, and failure to reach to the 25 yard line on kicks, I can totally understand why you would prefer the ball having more hang time, and end up short of the goal line. A lot of things can happen with a return. When the ball was automatically placed at the 20, I could understand the reason for touch backs, but now? Not so much, unless the other team has a guy who's a lights out return man, with a history of burning everyone with great returns.

Well, if there's any truth to Bisaccia wanting Crosby to kick short of the end zone than he should be criticized for the approach as it didn't work. The Packers ranked only 28th in opposing LOS after a kickoff at 26.32 yards in 2022.

Do you have a quote from MLF on that? Otherwise you are just speculating.

You sound like a broken record. First of all, as posted above, it didn't work if that was the plan. In addition, the Packers keeping a second kicker active for a game (which is close to being unheard of in the NFL) solely to kick off is a strong indicator the coaching staff didn't feel confident in Crosby being able to kick it off deep.

 

[PackerDNA]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here yet, but I read yesterday that the Packers and Crosby are in negotiations.

 

[Heyjoe4]

See here is the problem. I have to my recollection never weighed in on the Mason Crosby does or does not kick enough touchbacks. Someone else did. I think it was Hey Joe. Now follow closely. I can't type any slower. You answered him saying we drafted a guy who can kick it in the endzone so that is a mute point The spaces are to give you time. I then asked if you are advocating for keeping 2 kickers on the game day roster. One to kick touchbacks and one for FGs. Somehow you have turned that into I value touchbacks over points. Breathe now.

I'm having trouble typing because I'm laughing so hard. Truly a classic reply Schultz. What were we commenting about? Something to do with Crosby. I'm kinda over that now...... I'm moving over to the "Fire Joe Barry" thread. Well, if there is such a thread.

 

[Voyageur]

The Packers have "talked to Mason" about this coming year. But, what most people don't know is that the Cowboys have "talked to Mason" as well.

I might add, the distance from the Georgetown area is about 200 miles from the Cowboys facility. Then there's the fact that "if" the Cowboys did bring Crosby in as their kicker, it would enhance his business interests down here in North and Central Texas.

Were any of you aware of the fact that the Cowboys ended last year with questions with their kicker?

Just telling it like it is.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Mase will more than likely own a home in this area, and quite possibly another in the mountains, in Colorado. Just a personal note there. This area refers to the Georgetown area North of Austin.

 

[Schultz]

Moot not mute

Maybe, maybe knot.

 

[Mondio]

Maybe, maybe knot.

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[OldSchool101]

Moot not mute

and here I thought @Schultz was unable to speak and being knocked off his high horse (See Saul from Tarsus) for his condescending nature throughout his post

Let me help display someone else’s burden of proof that TB is or is not ultra hurtful.

The 2022 Green Bay Packers KO TB was 22.5% (#32/32 NFL.Com)
The Packers ST ranked #11/32 in allowed KO return coverage average at 23.2. The league averaged 22.85 per return (Rick Gosselin).

Those results show conclusively that TB% does not correlate directly to success rates. As further proof, the Packers (23.2) were smack dab in the middle of Washington (23.3) and the Colts (23.0) in KO return yards allowed.
Washington was #4/32 in TB%
Indianapolis was #23/32 in TB%

50% of the leagues allowed TD’s were with teams averaging TB% of 49%. The average TB% is 59.76. 2/6 TD’s were scored against teams who were ranking above average in TB% (Dolphins/Vikings)

Mason was tied with 15 Kickers with 0% Out of bounds. 17 other Kickers shanked at least 1+ out of bounds

Myth Busters results are in.
Mason’s KO TB% consistently hurting the Packers (or any team) is largely fiction.

 

[Voyageur]

An interesting fact about kick returns is that giving up one long return, over 70 yards, can move you 10 to 15 positions in the pecking order on averages. It's because there's fewer numbers of them happening, to not have that happen. If a team has 49 returns averaging 24.0 yards per return against them, and the next one goes for 74 yards, the average moves from 24.0 to 25.0.

The Packers had 61 kicks returned against them this year. I'd like to see a breakdown as to how many of them were over 40 yards, due to blown tackles, and loss of lane integrity? I have a hunch about a half dozen of those returns ballooned the average by over 1.0 yards per return, possibly as much as double that. That's the lacking scale in going with averages only.

 

[OldSchool101]

An interesting fact about kick returns is that giving up one long return, over 70 yards, can move you 10 to 15 positions in the pecking order on averages. It's because there's fewer numbers of them happening, to not have that happen. If a team has 49 returns averaging 24.0 yards per return against them, and the next one goes for 74 yards, the average moves from 24.0 to 25.0.

The Packers had 61 kicks returned against them this year. I'd like to see a breakdown as to how many of them were over 40 yards, due to blown tackles, and loss of lane integrity? I have a hunch about a half dozen of those returns ballooned the average by over 1.0 yards per return, possibly as much as double that. That's the lacking scale in going with averages only.

Sure.
My question is this, does the league account for each TB (25 yards) in their return average ? Or is the 22.85 average just the ones taken out of the paint?

If not, each TB is costing the Receiving team -2.15 yards per drive

If those 25.0 are averaged into the 22.85 average? Each TB is costing the Receiving team another additional -yards per Return beyond -2.15 yards lost.

 

[OldSchool101]

As one example. If that Default TB is NOT factored into the leagues 22.85 average?

The Cowboys 78 TB’s @ 25.0 potentially cost them dearly.
-157.7 yards seasonwide off the league avg (22.85 yards)
or for Dallas specifically -62.4 yards seasonwide off the Cowboys return average (24.2)

That’s very punishing if the default 25.0 TB is averaged in. The Cowboys effort to diminish a big return or TD costs them 1 or 2 TD’s in yards. It’s a really important ?

 

[OldSchool101]

Finally. While there is risk of giving up a big Return (or TD) for the Kicking team (see Patriots allowed 3 TD) those default TB also eliminates the Kicking team to create a turnover (fumble) in scoring position.

 

[Schultz]

and here I thought @Schultz was unable to speak and being knocked off his high horse (See Saul from Tarsus) for his condescending nature throughout his post

Let me help display someone else’s burden of proof that TB is or is not ultra hurtful.

The 2022 Green Bay Packers KO TB was 22.5% (#32/32 NFL.Com)
The Packers ST ranked #11/32 in allowed KO return coverage average at 23.2. The league averaged 22.85 per return (Rick Gosselin).

Those results show conclusively that TB% does not correlate directly to success rates. As further proof, the Packers (23.2) were smack dab in the middle of Washington (23.3) and the Colts (23.0) in KO return yards allowed.
Washington was #4/32 in TB%
Indianapolis was #23/32 in TB%

50% of the leagues allowed TD’s were with teams averaging TB% of 49%. The average TB% is 59.76. 2/6 TD’s were scored against teams who were ranking above average in TB% (Dolphins/Vikings)

Mason was tied with 15 Kickers with 0% Out of bounds. 17 other Kickers shanked at least 1+ out of bounds

Myth Busters results are in.
Mason’s KO TB% consistently hurting the Packers (or any team) is largely fiction.

Did you take onsides kicks out of your equation?

 

[Voyageur]

Did you take onsides kicks out of your equation?

Interesting point. Talk about a singular item that could totally skew the results of average kicking depth. This is it. Imagine doing a couple in a year, and about 10 yards each. That would be around the equivalent of 1 to 2 yard average on kicks. So many nuances to all of this that skews the figures are possible.

If you don't apply those, then why don't the disallow those that have a tail wind that exceeds 15 MPH, and those that have a head wind of 15 MPH, so they don't make it imbalanced.

 

[OldSchool101]

Did you take onsides kicks out of your equation?

I didn’t alter anything. I don’t even fully know what is or isn’t included in NFL recording.

I’m simply regurgitating their info. So you’d have to ask the NFL that question.

 

[Voyageur]

I didn’t alter anything.

If you have a question concerning how the NFL recording of numbers, your appeal is to the NFL, not me.

I think generalized stats are a mish-mosh of decent information. Next Gen Stats is more accurate, but you need to be a mathematical genius to figure out what they all totally mean. By the time you figure it out, the rules of the game change, and so does the significance of all the data.

It's like fifty years from now, when people are talking about kickers, and someone says that they aren't nearly as good as they were 60 years ago, and before. The percentages of misses has gone up significantly. Nobody will think about the distance of the kick.

It already happens now, in the NFL. We talk about 1,000 yards as being significant. That was back when they played 12 games. A guy had to average 83.3 yards per game. If we use 4.5 yards per carry as a breaking point of good yardage per run, that would mean the guy would carry the ball roughly 18 ti 19 times per game to get there.

When it went up to 14 games, it was 71.4 yards a game, and @4.5 per carry, and roughly just under 16 carries a game. In the 16 game seasons, it's down to 62.5 yards per game, and roughly 14 carries. Now, we're at 17, so it's 58.8 per game, and an average of 13 carries.

To be fair, comparing today's game to that of the 60s, as far as running the football, the "New 1,000 yard season" should be a minimum of 1,400 yards per season.

Theoretically, the same thing applies to kicking. So many differences in kicking. Inside, outside, turf fields, grass fields, cold weather, hot weather, frozen fields, muddy fields, winds, and how they fill the stadium - some are straight line, others swirl, like Lambeau Field, which according to most kickers is a real problem - and those where the winds are so strong they can cause balls to hook in either direction, or add distance, or lose distance because of wind in the kicker's face.

So, for all of us, it's what we see that we judge on. On TV, you don't really see, nor understand, the impact of the conditions related to the field.

 

[OldSchool101]

I think generalized stats are a mish-mosh of decent information. Next Gen Stats is more accurate, but you need to be a mathematical genius to figure out what they all totally mean. By the time you figure it out, the rules of the game change, and so does the significance of all the data.

It's like fifty years from now, when people are talking about kickers, and someone says that they aren't nearly as good as they were 60 years ago, and before. The percentages of misses has gone up significantly. Nobody will think about the distance of the kick.

It already happens now, in the NFL. We talk about 1,000 yards as being significant. That was back when they played 12 games. A guy had to average 83.3 yards per game. If we use 4.5 yards per carry as a breaking point of good yardage per run, that would mean the guy would carry the ball roughly 18 ti 19 times per game to get there.

When it went up to 14 games, it was 71.4 yards a game, and @4.5 per carry, and roughly just under 16 carries a game. In the 16 game seasons, it's down to 62.5 yards per game, and roughly 14 carries. Now, we're at 17, so it's 58.8 per game, and an average of 13 carries.

To be fair, comparing today's game to that of the 60s, as far as running the football, the "New 1,000 yard season" should be a minimum of 1,400 yards per season.

Theoretically, the same thing applies to kicking. So many differences in kicking. Inside, outside, turf fields, grass fields, cold weather, hot weather, frozen fields, muddy fields, winds, and how they fill the stadium - some are straight line, others swirl, like Lambeau Field, which according to most kickers is a real problem - and those where the winds are so strong they can cause balls to hook in either direction, or add distance, or lose distance because of wind in the kicker's face.

So, for all of us, it's what we see that we judge on. On TV, you don't really see, nor understand, the impact of the conditions related to the field.

I totally agree with all that. Particularly when we’re talking historic comparisons across multiple generations it really applies.

That said. Most of what we are talking about is current performance against active peers. On the flip side, We obviously don’t want to relegate arguments or experiments or comparisons using too tiny a sample size, this we really should use Crosby’s career (15 seasons etc).

It’s a good point that nothing is perfect stat wise and we should take that information with a grain of salt. There are certainly recording errors also. We don’t even know if these stats are perfectly accurate.

However as far as stats, it’s the only concrete measuring tool we have.
We can only use the information we’re provided. If someone challenges that part? That’s fine, but I’m not an NFL record keeper so I plead the 5th

PS. I’d still love to see Mason come back on a 1yr cheap deal. He is getting ready to break some historic records and I’d love to see that happen as a Packer. The only other guy that can say that is K, Jason Hanson. Love how he did his with 1 team. Really Impressive. I want the best for Mason he seems like an outstanding guy.

 

[swhitset]

Moot not mute

Thank you!!! I have been following that misuse of words throughout this thread and been biting my fingers not to respond.

 

[swhitset]

We don't point out incorrect spelling or grammar here.

moot and mute are completely different words with completely different meanings. It‘s not just a spelling error.

 

[Jayzee1981]

Let’s keep this on topic instead of back and forth internet grammar police ********. Brown *** men here I think. Is this what this forum has become?

 

[I asked LT to delete my acct]

Maybe, maybe knot.

Sorry but THAT was funny....lol

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here yet, but I read yesterday that the Packers and Crosby are in negotiations.

What's the point of using a sixth rounder on a kicker if they want to bring Crosby back? Let's hope the team doesn't really intend to sign Mason to another contract.

Let me help display someone else’s burden of proof that TB is or is not ultra hurtful.

The 2022 Green Bay Packers KO TB was 22.5% (#32/32 NFL.Com)
The Packers ST ranked #11/32 in allowed KO return coverage average at 23.2. The league averaged 22.85 per return (Rick Gosselin).

Those results show conclusively that TB% does not correlate directly to success rates. As further proof, the Packers (23.2) were smack dab in the middle of Washington (23.3) and the Colts (23.0) in KO return yards allowed.
Washington was #4/32 in TB%
Indianapolis was #23/32 in TB%

Average kickoff return yardage allowed isn't a great metric to evaluate a unit's performance as the distance of the kickoff is factored into the number.

For example, Crosby opened the season with a 68-yard kickoff which the Vikings returned 25 yards to their own 22-yard line. It's tracked as a 25-yard return despite them having to start on their 22-yard line though.

Therefore the average line of scrimmage after a kickoff is the best way to evaluate the performance of a team. As I posted in this thread the Packers only ranked 28th in that category last season with an average of 26.32 yards, strongly indicating it would have been better to get touchbacks more often.

The Packers had 61 kicks returned against them this year. I'd like to see a breakdown as to how many of them were over 40 yards, due to blown tackles, and loss of lane integrity? I have a hunch about a half dozen of those returns ballooned the average by over 1.0 yards per return, possibly as much as double that. That's the lacking scale in going with averages only.

Actually, the Packers gave up only one kickoff return for more than 40 yards last season when Velus Jones returned one for 42 in week 13 at Chicago.

 

[Voyageur]

The Packers had 61 kicks returned against them this year. I'd like to see a breakdown as to how many of them were over 40 yards, due to blown tackles, and loss of lane integrity? I have a hunch about a half dozen of those returns ballooned the average by over 1.0 yards per return, possibly as much as double that. That's the lacking scale in going with averages only.

Actually, the Packers gave up only one kickoff return for more than 40 yards last season when Velus Jones returned one for 42 in week 13 at Chicago.


I recommend you to read everything I post, there's some interesting stuff hidden in the nonsense I mostly post.

This tells me Mason is doing a better job with his kicks, because they must be higher, therefore making it more difficult to return. Something that doesn't show in the stats themselves.

 

[gopkrs]

Actually, the Packers gave up only one kickoff return for more than 40 yards last season when Velus Jones returned one for 42 in week 13 at Chicago.

The year b4 was really terrible. I think change of coach had more to do with it than change of personnel.