Eliot Wolf / John Dorsey GM threads?/ Browns - Steelers fight

[HardRightEdge]

Your comparison is ridiculous. If two people are pushing, shoving, and yelling, and one grabs a blunt object and bashes it over the head of another, that person is in serious legal trouble. Period.

Except that didn't happen. So now you're going around in circles. I'll bow out.

 

[AKCheese]

Rudolph not getting suspended is garbage. It shows the league isn’t really serious about fighting as long as you “stay within certain limits”. Garrett SHOULD be done for the season.... Pouncey is getting off light... Rudolph , who started the post play scuffle and in fact sustained and escalated it is getting off scott free.

 

[Dantés]

Rudolph not getting suspended is garbage. It shows the league isn’t really serious about fighting as long as you “stay within certain limits”. Garrett SHOULD be done for the season.... Pouncey is getting off light... Rudolph , who started the post play scuffle and in fact sustained and escalated it is getting off scott free.

Garrett started the problem with a late hit. He wrapped Rudolph as the pass came out. That could have been it. But he chose to twist and drag him to the ground anyways. It was fairly slow and deliberate... not a bang, bang play. And the game was over.

 

[Mondio]

I think all the fines and suspensions so far seem about right for the infractions. Garrett’s needs to be a full year, not just the remainder. But we’ll see what happens there as there isn’t a timetable past this season.

 

[Poppa San]

Had Garrett connected with a different part of the helmet and cracked Rudolph's skull open, he would be in a cell or out on bail right now.

How many hockey players spent time behind bars for swinging and connecting with their sticks outside the action of the play? How many pitchers caused concussions with high and tight pitches that connected where the outcry was for criminal action?

 

[Dantés]

I think all the fines and suspensions so far seem about right for the infractions. Garrett’s needs to be a full year, not just the remainder. But we’ll see what happens there as there isn’t a timetable past this season.

If he jumped through all the hoops and they decided to let him come back for the start of next season, I wouldn't be surprised or upset. He's a young player and hasn't had any major incidents to this point.

 

[AKCheese]

Garrett started the problem with a late hit. He wrapped Rudolph as the pass came out. That could have been it. But he chose to twist and drag him to the ground anyways. It was fairly slow and deliberate... not a bang, bang play. And the game was over.

Pure judgement call on your part, if so then let the officials call a penalty. After the whistle that’s it, unless you REALLY want to fight, but a QB starting something with a lineman then crying about it when he gets his butt whipped is punk bull crap. Maybe... just mayyyyybeeee the Steelers shouldn’t have called the play they did in this situation. Call a pass on the last play of a game that’s out of reach then cry when your QB gets hit? Total punk crybaby BS

 

[Dantés]

How many hockey players spent time behind bars for swinging and connecting with their sticks outside the action of the play? How many pitchers caused concussions with high and tight pitches that connected where the outcry was for criminal action?

Well, as far as an outcry in hockey, you'd have to poll the dozen people who watch it. I can't speak to that sport.

In baseball, batters accept that they may be hit by a pitch as a matter of course within gameplay.

In this situation, the swing at Rudolph's head had literally nothing to do with gameplay. Zero. Zip.

So what you're telling me is that if Garrett had connected better and cracked Rudolph's skull, that's not a legal matter because it happened on a football field?

Where's the line then? Would it have had to be a coma? Would he need to bludgeon him to death before it becomes a legal matter? Or would they have just buried Rudolph in the end zone and suspended Garrett?

 

[Dantés]

Pure judgement call on your part, if so then let the officials call a penalty. After the whistle that’s it, unless you REALLY want to fight, but a QB starting something with a lineman then crying about it when he gets his butt whipped is punk bull crap. Maybe... just mayyyyybeeee the Steelers shouldn’t have called the play they did in this situation. Call a pass on the last play of a game that’s out of reach then cry when your QB gets hit? Total punk crybaby BS

Not a judgment call. Literally public record that anyone can watch. Lol. Also the take that basically every analyst has shared.

That's like me saying that it's a "pure judgment call" on your part that Rudolph grabbed at Garrett's helmet. We can watch him do it...

But no, you're right... this is definitely the fault of the quarterback and the play call.

 

[Mondio]

I think it would be more akin to a batter taking a bat to a pitcher, as that is outside the scope of the game. Getting hit by pitches is a normal part of the game.

 

[Dantés]

I think it would be more akin to a batter taking a bat to a pitcher, as that is outside the scope of the game. Getting hit by pitches is a normal part of the game.

Perfect

 

[Dantés]

I think people might also be ignoring that by not suspending Rudolph, the league is in a way punishing the Steelers.

 

[OldSchool101]

Really think this will escalate beyond the NFL? Rudolph is an accomplice if not partaking in "gang activity" along with Pouncey doing the kicking.

Luckily for Garrett, no I don’t.

That said, the realm of possibility exists anytime an assault happens, much less a tort. That’s the reason why the first question criminal judges ask before proceeding with a case “has anyone been injured in this case”. The most severe cases are the ones which involve physical injury.
IMO, I don’t believe Rudolph pushing on Myles helmet by itself warranted that degree or seriousness of retaliation.
This case is a completely different level of misconduct than the usual players fighting and anyone declaring it’s not is deceiving themselves.

Pouncey should also be suspended, but that is not even close to the same degree of misconduct.
I believe we will see that in the final outcome of the leagues decision.

 

[BrokenArrow]

And they play each other again in 2 weeks. Wonder how that'll go.

Probably much quieter than you expect. Both teams will receive repeated warnings between now and then.

 

[BrokenArrow]

I'm more lenient on that one. He just saw a guy swing his QB's helmet at his QB'S unprotected head. I can't say I blame him. Pouncey probably gets suspended a game or two. I hope Garrett never plays again. That was assault.

It was battery and Rudolph should have filed a report and pressed charges. Why? Fights and brawls are common. Ripping a player's helmet off is also fairly common. But at some point, an attack on another player goes outside the bounds of an "on-field incident" within the context of the game. There is a line that eventually is going to be defined. If Garrett had the helmet turned the other way, with the crown coming down on a single square inch of Rudolph's skull, the consequences would have been far more dire. Fractured skull, broken neck, brain hemorrhage and worse would be strong possibilities given the force with which he swung that thing. There is no question that if that had happened, criminal charges would be justified without much debate.

So the defining argument here should be one of intent. It is difficult to imagine that Garrett did not intend to seriously injure Rudolph. He had no idea which way the helmet/weapon was oriented in his hand and he swung it with full force on top of Rudolph's head. How can you NOT conclude that he had every intention of seriously maiming him? That is why the line needs to be drawn here and now as to what constitutes a football matter and what crosses the line to a criminal/legal matter. That line was drawn in the NHL when McSorley put Brashear down on the ice with the heel of his stick to the temple. If this doesn't cross into the criminal realm, then what does? If Rudolph had gone to the ground and not moved for 10 seconds, I don't think anyone would be arguing otherwise.

His remarks after the game centered around being sorry for hurting his team and that he "made a mistake" without giving any context. He showed no hint of remorse for what he actually did to Rudolph until the next day, and I'm sure his agent told him it was in his own self-interest to do so. He repeatedly has said, "I'm not a dirty player" despite on-field behavior that indicates otherwise. He seemingly has no real conscience, much like Burfict. But even Burfict hasn't done anything like this. Garrett should not be reinstated until he undergoes some serious psychological testing. He should be required to complete the MMPI-2. I bet you would find positive scores on the scales which indicate an antisocial personality. If that is the case, it would be a strong predictor of his likelihood to repeat such behaviors in the future and should seriously be considered in determining his future in the league. Personally, I think one would have to have some psychopathic tendencies to do what he did. He seems to lack that inner voice that tells him what is acceptable and what is not.

 

[BrokenArrow]

true he had to say something on the ground

Yeah, like "Get the F off of me!"

 

[BrokenArrow]

1 game for Ogunjobi

3 games for Pouncey

Indefinite suspension for Garrett

Seems about right.

Should have been 3 for Ogunjobi too. He had just seen a guy get hit in the head with a weapon and then proceeded to shove that guy hard to the ground.

 

[BrokenArrow]

That would be unprecedented, but a definite possibility. I think the NFL is working behind the scenes to prevent this. It would be a ugly blemish on the NFL as a whole. As Rudolph is okay, I don't think he will be able to sue.

The NFL should encourage this. It would put the line in the sand once and for all. How far do you want it to go before you expect a player to be charged criminally? Is battery with a deadly weapon (any club or club-like object is considered a deadly weapon in nearly all jurisdictions) not enough? Where do they want that line to be? Aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm? Manslaughter?

We all know where Goodell's priorities lie. He can spout lip service about player safety all he wants. The NFL doesn't give two ***** about player safety. His priority is to "protect the shield." Well, they better be on board with finding that line where football matters cross over to criminality if he wants to protect that shield, because Garrett just threatened it in a big way.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Garrett has been a very high level character person and I would have never expected this from him.

A lot of psychopaths are very good at this. People said all the same things about Ted Bundy. Garrett needs to be tested. He either didn't understand the gravity of the potential outcomes of what he did, or he simply didn't care. The former can be addressed. The latter cannot. The NFL needs to find out which one is true.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Very shocked over the matter. I thought Garrett was one of the truly level headed, humble good guys. Guy is into dinosaurs and hangs out with normal humble people.

But what he did should come under severe consequences. There are no excuse for what he did.

Pouncy should not be excused either.

16 games for Garrett and 4 for Pouncy. Not sure bout the other guy.

Rudolph was an idiot in this a well. Trying to yank Garrett's helmet and then trying to get in his face without his helmet was just stupid.

The Steeler who held Garrett down was the only sensible one in the group.

Pouncey shouldn't have gotten more than 1 game. He just watched Garrett do something that could have potentially killed his QB. What he did was completely within human nature. I expect it will be reduced to 1 game on appeal.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Rudolph was incredibly lucky that the white padded part of his helmet came down on him when Garrett swung it. Could have been way worse and gone off on a stretcher.

Or in a bag.

 

[Poppa San]

The NFL should encourage this. It would put the line in the sand once and for all. How far do you want it to go before you expect a player to be charged criminally? Is battery with a deadly weapon (any club or club-like object is considered a deadly weapon in nearly all jurisdictions) not enough? Where do they want that line to be? Aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm? Manslaughter?

We all know where Goodell's priorities lie. He can spout lip service about player safety all he wants. The NFL doesn't give two ***** about player safety. His priority is to "protect the shield." Well, they better be on board with finding that line where football matters cross over to criminality if he wants to protect that shield, because Garrett just threatened it in a big way.

Have you ever read about the early days of football? I mean back in the college club days, a generation or two before the NFL. Congress made a threat to ban football like sports due to the violence ON the field.
Personally I don't think a helmet held by three fingers in the face mask has enough heft and stability to crack a skull except for a "we'll never be able to duplicate that" freak accident. Especially on a professional athlete whose body and bone structure has been tuned to play the sport for 15 years during his development phase. The helmet pivots around the fingers, reducing the force. The mass is not concentrated. A plastic shell deflects more than a wooden device such as a bat or club. All this crush a skull nonsense is hyperbole. Draw blood, concussion, break a nose? yes.

 

[Mondio]

I have zero doubt a man that size with that arm span could crack a skull with a helmet. and even if he couldn't, he could certainly cause a subdural bleed that could very easily become deadly within hours. What he did is not hyperbole.

 

[Sky King]

This has been one of the more interesting discussions regarding a precedent-setting incident for a league that is now 100 years old. One part of that incident set a viewing precedent for me, anyway. Rare indeed. This is coming from someone who watched his first NFL game about 60 seasons ago. I have never before witnessed any player swing a helmet at either somebody's protected or unprotected coconut. The incident was fascinating enough to briefly bring me out of forum hibernation.

From my viewing experience, virtually every misconduct exhibited during this overall incident has been repeated countless times over many, many seasons, all except for the most egregious one. There is personal foul history aplenty that can be used as a precedent towards the application of appropriate fines and suspensions for all but one of those active participants. Regarding all of the others: MEH, although special mention (and suspension) will always be deserved for intentionally kicking an occupied uniform, especially a helmet.

Now for the biggest offense: Some may want to stress any supportive details of "the Devil made him do it" defense that precipitated the helmet fiasco. Have at it. Personally, I could not care less who or what (lesser) act caused the escalation. Head-bashing is unjustifiable regardless of what lights the fuse. Importantly, the baseline punishment has now been established for non-injurious helmet clocking, an isolated incident that was unarguably way over the top.

May it be at least another 100 years before this type of incident occurs again, if ever.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

After the dust has settled, I actually like Max Kellerman's take on what happened, but agree with Stephan A on a 6 game suspension for Garrett.

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