Breaking Down the NFC North

tynimiller

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I'd say at best it is a wash...their standing OLBs are not as good as ours...their hands down DEs if you want to call them sure have ours beat.
 

Dantés

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I'd say at best it is a wash...their standing OLBs are not as good as ours...their hands down DEs if you want to call them sure have ours beat.

Yeah, I just don't agree at all.

Yes, their interior DL is probably a little better overall, but not by a huge margin. Hicks turns 32 this year and showed his age in 2020. The Packers still have the single best player on the line in Kenny Clark, right in the middle of his prime.

But in my mind that doesn't make up for the rather sizeable advantage that the Packers have on the edge.

Khalil Mack has not been Khalil Mack for three years now. Robert Quinn is 31 and had 2 sacks in 15 games last year. The Bears foolishly gave him huge money after his outlier season in Dallas, prior to which he had averaged 6 sacks/season over 4 years.

So to me, you can't compare a really big edge in one area to a really slight edge in another.
 

tynimiller

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Yeah, I just don't agree at all.

Yes, their interior DL is probably a little better overall, but not by a huge margin. Hicks turns 32 this year and showed his age in 2020. The Packers still have the single best player on the line in Kenny Clark, right in the middle of his prime.

But in my mind that doesn't make up for the rather sizeable advantage that the Packers have on the edge.

Khalil Mack has not been Khalil Mack for three years now. Robert Quinn is 31 and had 2 sacks in 15 games last year. The Bears foolishly gave him huge money after his outlier season in Dallas, prior to which he had averaged 6 sacks/season over 4 years.

So to me, you can't compare a really big edge in one area to a really slight edge in another.

ALl of that is why I said at best it is a wash. I personally side with you and if ranking we are ahead.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Packers secondary is better than the Bears’. Bears front seven is better than the Packers. Khalil Mack is a better pass rusher than anyone on the Packers. Big Z is an elite pass rusher but Mack is a top-2 edge rusher and he doesn’t need to play DT to rush the QB (Z is truly elite only when rushing from the inside which is a minor limitation).
 

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Packers secondary is better than the Bears’. Bears front seven is better than the Packers. Khalil Mack is a better pass rusher than anyone on the Packers. Big Z is an elite pass rusher but Mack is a top-2 edge rusher and he doesn’t need to play DT to rush the QB (Z is truly elite only when rushing from the inside which is a minor limitation).

This has not been accurate for quite a while.
 

Air2theThrown

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Goff ranks only 15th in passer rating over the past four seasons among 34 qualified quarterbacks and has regressed over the past two seasons. I definitely don't consider him an upgrade over Stafford.

His passer rating declined the last two years because the Rams interior OL declined heavily and he was under heavy pressure up the middle. He also lost his top receivers. The two years prior when he had protection and weapons he made the probowl twice.

I think he’s a down grade over Stafford but I think he’s above Cousins. That was my point.

However the Lions have a good OL and a terrible group of WR’s. So I have to wonder who Goff will be able to throw to?
 

tynimiller

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I’m guessing you haven’t watched Mack regularly in a while then.

Being from East of Chicago in Northern Indiana I see more Bears and Colts games than I care to ever....Mack is an amazing defender, BUT recently Z has been 100% the better of the two. This doesn't takeaway anything from Mack for what he is or has been before and even could put together this year or next...but Z right now is deadlier on defense IMO.
 

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I’m guessing you haven’t watched Mack regularly in a while then.

Define regularly. Are you carefully watching him each week? I watch him play the Packers twice and probably see him a couple more times beyond that. He's still a very good player, but he is definitely not a top 2 edge rusher. I can think of several names who have definitely been better than him for two years now-- both Bosa bros, Myles Garrett, Chandler Jones, Cam Jordan, Danielle Hunter, T.J. Watt all come to mind. Mack is towards the bottom of the top ten.

Za'Darius and Mack are different players. If one wanted to say they're comparable because Smith does so much damage as a reduced rusher, I could understand that. Though part of the reason he does so much damage there is because he's so uniquely good at it. If Mack could pick up 7 sacks a year inside, presumably the Bears would do that with him.

But at a certain point, you have to give a nod to Z's superior production. 26 sacks and 33 QB hits in two seasons vs. 17.5 sacks and 10 QB hits for Mack. It's a really tough sell to argue that Mack is head and shoulders a better player with such a stark contrast in objective production.
 

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His passer rating declined the last two years because the Rams interior OL declined heavily and he was under heavy pressure up the middle. He also lost his top receivers. The two years prior when he had protection and weapons he made the probowl twice.

I think he’s a down grade over Stafford but I think he’s above Cousins. That was my point.

However the Lions have a good OL and a terrible group of WR’s. So I have to wonder who Goff will be able to throw to?

If he's protected and the line provides an effective rushing attack, he will be better off, situationally, than he was in LA with a bad line and good receivers.

Wide receivers matter more than, say, running backs in terms of positional value, but they are still dramatically overrated. If you have an effective system, the QB to execute it, and the OL to give him room to do so, you can get by fine without a loaded WR corps.

The reason I think that Goff might struggle is not so much personnel but because at his peak he was essentially an extension of McVay on the field.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Define regularly. Are you carefully watching him each week? I watch him play the Packers twice and probably see him a couple more times beyond that. He's still a very good player, but he is definitely not a top 2 edge rusher. I can think of several names who have definitely been better than him for two years now-- both Bosa bros, Myles Garrett, Chandler Jones, Cam Jordan, Danielle Hunter, T.J. Watt all come to mind. Mack is towards the bottom of the top ten.

Za'Darius and Mack are different players. If one wanted to say they're comparable because Smith does so much damage as a reduced rusher, I could understand that. Though part of the reason he does so much damage there is because he's so uniquely good at it. If Mack could pick up 7 sacks a year inside, presumably the Bears would do that with him.

But at a certain point, you have to give a nod to Z's superior production. 26 sacks and 33 QB hits in two seasons vs. 17.5 sacks and 10 QB hits for Mack. It's a really tough sell to argue that Mack is head and shoulders a better player with such a stark contrast in objective production.

Z and Mack are about equivalent at rushing the passer while Mack is much better against the run. Mack is one of the top-2 edge defenders in the league while Z is top-10. This isn't a shot at Z, it's an acknowledgement that rushing the passer isn't the only thing edge players do.
 

Air2theThrown

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The reason I think that Goff might struggle is not so much personnel but because at his peak he was essentially an extension of McVay on the field.

I know this is the narrative that some media personnel have tried to project. McVay can do no wrong. McVay put all of the blame went on Goff for their offensive decline. When Goff played well and made two probowls and took them to a Super Bowl it was all McVay but when his play declined it was all on Goff. Not on McVay, Not on the declining OL or the declining weapon options. Goff has been the 2nd winningest QB in the league since he became a full time starter. He gets no credit for that? He gets no credit for the two probowl seasons Nope that credit goes to McVay?

Let’s not forget that Goff was drafted #1 overall. Let’s not forget Goff was a damn good college player who went to the same college as Aaron Rogers. He broke many of Rogers and Carl’s records. He set 26 Cal records. This included passing yards (12,220), passing yards per game (329.7 ypg), touchdown passes (96), completions (977) and many more. The only record he was 2nd to Aaron Rodgers on at Cal was passing efficiency (143.95).

I just think people are down grading Goff because he was traded to the Lions.

I do think he’s a down grade from Stafford and I do think he has a lot to prove. It was well known that Goff and McVay weren’t seeing eye to eye but I think he’s done more than Cousins has in his short career.

I guess we will find out this year but I think Goff is a lot better then some of you are giving him credit for that’s all.

Anthony Lynn did a fine job with Justin Herbert last year. Herbert broke most of the rookie passing records in that offense. I am curious to see if he can have a similar effect on Goff. Time will tell.
 

Air2theThrown

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Z and Mack are about equivalent at rushing the passer while Mack is much better against the run. Mack is one of the top-2 edge defenders in the league while Z is top-10. This isn't a shot at Z, it's an acknowledgement that rushing the passer isn't the only thing edge players do.

I think that’s all Dante is basing his rankings on.

In 2020 Mack played in 16 games while Smith played in 17 games so Smith had one more game worth of stats over Mack. I don’t think Dante is taking that into consideration either.

Mack also drops into coverage more often than Smith does as well. So he has fewer opportunities to get after the QB.

Mack had 9 sack to Smiths 12.3
Mack had 1 INT to Smith none
Mack had a safety as well.

Personally I think Mack is a better all around player but the two are both great players.

However I think you have to understand that CHI drops Mack into coverage more and they rush Roquan Smith too.
 

Dantés

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Z and Mack are about equivalent at rushing the passer while Mack is much better against the run. Mack is one of the top-2 edge defenders in the league while Z is top-10. This isn't a shot at Z, it's an acknowledgement that rushing the passer isn't the only thing edge players do.

Then I would just say that I think you're over-emphasizing the importance of run defense at that position, relative to rushing the passer. Because I agree that Mack is an excellent run defender. But that's a lot less than half of the equation to me.

And I understand you're not running Z down. We just don't see it quite the same-- that's all.
 

Dantés

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I think that’s all Dante is basing his rankings on.

In 2020 Mack played in 16 games while Smith played in 17 games so Smith had one more game worth of stats over Mack. I don’t think Dante is taking that into consideration either.

Mack also drops into coverage more often than Smith does as well. So he has fewer opportunities to get after the QB.

Mack had 9 sack to Smiths 12.3
Mack had 1 INT to Smith none
Mack had a safety as well.

Personally I think Mack is a better all around player but the two are both great players.

However I think you have to understand that CHI drops Mack into coverage more and they rush Roquan Smith too.

I'm basing all my rankings on what?
 

Dantés

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I know this is the narrative that some media personnel have tried to project. McVay can do no wrong. McVay put all of the blame went on Goff for their offensive decline. When Goff played well and made two probowls and took them to a Super Bowl it was all McVay but when his play declined it was all on Goff. Not on McVay, Not on the declining OL or the declining weapon options. Goff has been the 2nd winningest QB in the league since he became a full time starter. He gets no credit for that? He gets no credit for the two probowl seasons Nope that credit goes to McVay?

Let’s not forget that Goff was drafted #1 overall. Let’s not forget Goff was a damn good college player who went to the same college as Aaron Rogers. He broke many of Rogers and Carl’s records. He set 26 Cal records. This included passing yards (12,220), passing yards per game (329.7 ypg), touchdown passes (96), completions (977) and many more. The only record he was 2nd to Aaron Rodgers on at Cal was passing efficiency (143.95).

I just think people are down grading Goff because he was traded to the Lions.

I do think he’s a down grade from Stafford and I do think he has a lot to prove. It was well known that Goff and McVay weren’t seeing eye to eye but I think he’s done more than Cousins has in his short career.

I guess we will find out this year but I think Goff is a lot better then some of you are giving him credit for that’s all.

Anthony Lynn did a fine job with Justin Herbert last year. Herbert broke most of the rookie passing records in that offense. I am curious to see if he can have a similar effect on Goff. Time will tell.

Well I don't think that McVay can do no wrong, and I don't think that he's 100% responsible for all their success. But I do think that he's an excellent creator and orchestrator of offense. And that matters a whole lot (a whole lot more than Goff's college statistics...).

In the five years prior to Rodgers clicking in LaFleur's offense, he was basically a ~96 passer rating player. He was still capable of making elite individual plays/throws, but on balance his production was basically average. Once he got comfortable in a much more effective system, he was as effective as ever and won the MVP.

Another example-- Matt Ryan was also a pretty decent QB for a long time, but not remarkable. Then he got comfortable in Shanahan's offense, looked like the best QB in football, and won an MVP. Since Shanahan left, he's basically gone back to the guy he was (in terms of production).

I could go on. The point is not that Goff has no potential. The point is that even guys with potential need to work in good offenses if they're going to unlock that potential. And the way I see it, Goff is transitioning from one of the best offensive coaches in football to an offensive coaching staff that I find very unimpressive.

Maybe Lynn will prove that incorrect. Anything is possible. But I don't think he's a good designer or orchestrator of offense.

And let's remember-- all I've done here to spark this is rank Cousins ahead of Goff. I can't see how that's remotely controversial with how well Cousins has played the last two years.
 

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