All the draft complaining...let's look over the past 10 seasons...

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HardRightEdge

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Cloning is your word. Not mine.
Who is it, though, who keeps harping on SF's run-first offensive style as something LaFleur would emulate.

In point of fact, that isn't SF's or Shanahan style at all. It changes from season to season, team to team, game to game. Oh, wait! LaFleur might well emulate that.
2017 Shanahan was made head coach.

2017
Signed Tim Hightower
Drafted Joe Williams
Traded for Kapri Bibb
Signed UFA Kyle Juszyk
Signed undrafted Matt Jusczyk
Later came McKinnon, Alfred Morris, and Coleman.
Oh, double wait! We're back to cloning. I heard something once about a shoe, how it might fit, and whether it should be worn..

You know that 2017 group right there? Do you know how many snaps the #3 RB had looking at each game across the season? Mostert with 15 total for the entire season. How about the 4th. running back? McNicols with zero offensive snaps. It was a two back offense all day and every day.

It's not how many guys you have in camp, it's how many you keep and play. I have no idea if all those guys were under contact with SF in 2017 but I'll take your word for it, even if McKinnon wasn't. ;) What I do know is seven of them, Hightower, Bibbs, Williams, McKinnon, Morris, Coleman and Matt J., never took an offensive snap with that team. Kyle Juszcak is a FB which is something else entirely. You didn't mention Hyde and Breida, the only RBs with snap counts other than Mostert's puny 15 in 2017, so I guess I have to.

These guys were just scrounging around for a 3rd. running back in 2017 and didn't actually find one they could use. It was two backs all day every day. And that's with Beathard and Hoyer starting 11 games going 1-10 before Garoppolo showed up. D*mn, if there was ever at time you're going to be run-first with 4 RBs on game day this would be it it.
 
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Fat Dogs

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Who is it, though, who keeps harping on SF's run-first offensive style as something LaFleur would emulate.

In point of fact, that isn't SF's or Shanahan style at all. It changes from season to season, team to team, game to game. Oh, wait! LaFleur might well emulate that.

Oh, double wait! We're back to cloning. I heard something about a shoe, how it might fit, and whether you should wear it.


That turned quickly. You just said that Shanahan runs the ball because he has the talent to do so and I was simply showing you that those players didn’t magically fall onto the roster. They were drafted for his system. He worked with what he had as a coordinator because he had to. It’s no secret that Mike Shanahan had success with many different running backs. Take the best coaches in the NFL and they had to learn from somewhere. Resort to mocking all you want but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that MLF and Kyle started their young coaching careers trying to establish the run.
 
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HardRightEdge

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That turned quickly. You just said that Shanahan runs the ball because he has the talent to do so and I was simply showing you that those players didn’t magically fall onto the roster.
Of course they did not "magically fall on the roster". What actually happened is he wasn't finding a 3rd. guy he'd want to give the ball to and kept running through names until he found one. Actually, he may have found one by accident with all the injuries last season. No, not magic, more like trial and error getting to three RBs.

I said any good head coach would adjust his scheme and play mix to the available talent. If running the ball behind a good run blocking line happens to be working one year or one week then that's what I would expect to be done until it doesn't work any more. No quick turns there.

In Atlanta he had RBs who could catch the ball--more thows to them, fewer runs, same % focus. If he ran more last season that may be because he did not have confidence in the RB run substitution throws which were light. He also had a good run blocking line. I don't know his free agent situation in that regard, but if he has a run blocking weakness now I'd expect more passing. He used only two RBs in 2017 because that's all he had, and not much of a QB situation to boot for most of the season.

Frankly, I'm past tired of talking about Shanahan because I don't believe any successful coach has a system and play balance he just rolls out week after week and year after year. Nor do I believe a successful coach copies somebody else's approach. LaFluer has been successful and I hope he will continue to be so.

Of course Shanahan doesn't really have a system you can point to as something predictable from year to year or week to week, something you could copy if you wanted to. Building a running game is relatively cheap. RBs can be gotten inexpensively if you're willing to run through a parade of them. Run blocking OLs are less expensive that the ones who excel at pass blocking. So where cap fits into the predisposition from one year to the next I'll leave for you to figure out.

The fixation on SF's 8 throw game in the playoffs is just that--a fixation. He detected early that the Packers were overplaying the pass and kept at the run game until it stopped working which it never did because Pettine couldn't see his way clear to adjust.

You might want to consider that Dillon is a backstop for two contract year running backs and a guy that'll get every chance to steal Williams' snaps in preparation for #1 in 2021. That's why you draft RBs in the 2nd. round after all. Deguara is a part-time fullback when a play calls for that, maybe getting snaps elsewhere if he's up to it, taking over Lewis' snaps next year in-line when not at FB. He's not exactly slow; he might get some snaps out of the slot. Did you consider this is as far as "loading up" the run game goes?

There really isn't a compelling reason to think LaFleur is cloning the SF approach, and "clone" is in fact your slant. If running is working to win games then that's what LaFleur will do. Fall behind early and the ball is in Rodgers hands. You will absolutely see more pass plays than run plays regardless. If you run the ball 400 times, which is about what you should expect, give or take, in the final analysis you don't need 4 RBs on the active roster every week to accomplish that.
 
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gopkrs

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I sure hope we don't have a coach that doesn't have his own ideas. I mean that I don't want someone that is completely boxed into a certain scheme. You have to play and place the personnel that you have imho. And I would guess that means almost always it is necessary to be flexible.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I sure hope we don't have a coach that doesn't have his own ideas. I mean that I don't want someone that is completely boxed into a certain scheme. You have to play and place the personnel that you have imho. And I would guess that means almost always it is necessary to be flexible.
Yeah, if they can't find some WRs or TEs to complement Adams in the passing game on a consistent basis, then running more just might make some sense. I find it highly implausible that is "the plan" going in, if there is an "in".
 

Fat Dogs

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I sure hope we don't have a coach that doesn't have his own ideas. I mean that I don't want someone that is completely boxed into a certain scheme. You have to play and place the personnel that you have imho. And I would guess that means almost always it is necessary to be flexible.


He wouldn’t be an NFL head coach if that was the case. MLF said from his own mouth that we need more explosive plays. He was talking about big chunks through the air using play action. Run the ball and force the safety to cheat up. I’ll take Adams in single coverage over any corner in the league. How about a line backer trying to cover Jones from the slot. Rodgers will pick teams apart if we get our run game going. This is why you invest draft capital into Dillon and Deguara and pick up a big blocking receiver like Funchess.
 

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Of course they did not "magically fall on the roster". What actually happened is he wasn't finding a 3rd. guy he'd want to give the ball to and kept running through names until he found one. Actually, he may have found one by accident with all the injuries last season. No, not magic, more like trial and error getting to three RBs.

I said any good head coach would adjust his scheme and play mix to the available talent. If running the ball behind a good run blocking line happens to be working one year or one week then that's what I would expect to be done until it doesn't work any more. No quick turns there.

In Atlanta he had RBs who could catch the ball--more thows to them, fewer runs, same % focus. If he ran more last season that may be because he did not have confidence in the RB run substitution throws which were light. He also had a good run blocking line. I don't know his free agent situation in that regard, but if he has a run blocking weakness now I'd expect more passing. He used only two RBs in 2017 because that's all he had, and not much of a QB situation to boot for most of the season.

Frankly, I'm past tired of talking about Shanahan because I don't believe any successful coach has a system and play balance he just rolls out week after week and year after year. Nor do I believe a successful coach copies somebody else's approach. LaFluer has been successful and I hope he will continue to be so.

Of course Shanahan doesn't really have a system you can point to as something predictable from year to year or week to week, something you could copy if you wanted to. Building a running game is relatively cheap. RBs can be gotten inexpensively if you're willing to run through a parade of them. Run blocking OLs are less expensive that the ones who excel at pass blocking. So where cap fits into the predisposition from one year to the next I'll leave for you to figure out.

The fixation on SF's 8 throw game in the playoffs is just that--a fixation. He detected early that the Packers were overplaying the pass and kept at the run game until it stopped working which it never did because Pettine couldn't see his way clear to adjust.

You might want to consider that Dillon is a backstop for two contract year running backs and a guy that'll get every chance to steal Williams' snaps in preparation for #1 in 2021. That's why you draft RBs in the 2nd. round after all. Deguara is a part-time fullback when a play calls for that, maybe getting snaps elsewhere if he's up to it, taking over Lewis' snaps next year in-line when not at FB. He's not exactly slow; he might get some snaps out of the slot. Did you consider this is as far as "loading up" the run game goes?

There really isn't a compelling reason to think LaFleur is cloning the SF approach, and "clone" is in fact your slant. If running is working to win games then that's what LaFleur will do. Fall behind early and the ball is in Rodgers hands. You will absolutely see more pass plays than run plays regardless. If you run the ball 400 times, which is about what you should expect, give or take, in the final analysis you don't need 4 RBs on the active roster every week to accomplish that.


Look I Come on here because packers fans have great football IQ’s unlike other fan bases. I can shoot the **** with my buddies but they have limited knowledge about my team. You come up with some great posts with valid points but yea.. This Shanahan thing is getting old. We are doing circles and have been on repeat for some time. We have different opinions on how this will play out and I can appreciate that. I’ll be happy to revisit this Subject during the season. Cheers to the Packers no matter how this plays out.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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Where do you find a talented RB for less than $2 Million? Either you get lucky in the draft or you go w/o imho And going W/O is a dangerous thing to do.

You have to realize that we're not talking about the starting running back here. $2.3 million is a waste of money for the third RB on the depth chart. The position should be filled with either a late round pick or a street free agent.

My response is 63% or 58% shouldn’t matter.

It works as evidence the NFL is a passing league though.

The packers have 3 RB’s that will be paid out 5 million total in 2020. Here’s a list of RB’s salaries in 2020.

McCaffrey 22.3 mil
Zeke 19.8 mil
Bell 13.4 Mil
Johnson 11.1 mil
Henry 10.2 mil
Ekeler 9.5 Mil
Gordon 9 mil
Gurley 5.5 mil
Coleman 4.8 mil
Howard 4.75 mil


This 2 million dollars argument is pretty ridiculous.

None of the running backs you listed is considered to be third on their team's depth chart.

As a side note it doesn't make any sense to take a look at cash spent in a given season. Average salary or cap hit is much more meaningful.
 

Fat Dogs

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You have to realize that we're not talking about the starting running back here. $2.3 million is a waste of money for the third RB on the depth chart. The position should be filled with either a late round pick or a street free agent.



It works as evidence the NFL is a passing league though.



None of the running backs you listed is considered to be third on their team's depth chart.

As a side note it doesn't make any sense to take a look at cash spent in a given season. Average salary or cap hit is much more meaningful.


Let’s think of it another way. I go into a shoe store and see a sign that says buy 1 and get the other 1/2 off. One pair of tennis is a necessity but another pair at a bargain price will save me a little wear and tear. Throw in a pair of cheap work boots and I’m set. I know this is a silly analogy but we can both agree that Jones will be grossly underpaid for 2019. He could easily be making what these other guys are getting paid. This more than makes up for Williams. Give me The choice of paying 3 guys with a cap hit under the cap hit of any one single player Not named Cristian McCaffrey and I’m taking it.
 

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You originally said that there was no way that the packers would roster 4 RB’s and I argued that they would. Now you are saying that you have no doubt that this will happen. I know that the season is fast approaching and more material is being written to sway your opinion and that’s fine. I’m just predicting that MLF will use all 3 backs significantly and Ervin will be used mainly for ST and a few sweeps here and there.

I think the confusion w/ 3 vs 4 comes down to the fullback.

I expect 3 primary ball carriers/halfbacks/tailbacks--Jones, Ervin, and Dillion. Williams will likely stick around until final cuts as injury insurance and/or Dillon falling on his face.

1 Fullback/blocking back. Unsure if that guy is on the roster or not. Looks like we have two currently signed, a 1YR player and a rookie. Either or Neither could end up making the 53.
 
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Let’s think of it another way. I go into a shoe store and see a sign that says buy 1 and get the other 1/2 off. One pair of tennis is a necessity but another pair at a bargain price will save me a little wear and tear. Throw in a pair of cheap work boots and I’m set. I know this is a silly analogy but we can both agree that Jones will be grossly underpaid for 2019. He could easily be making what these other guys are getting paid. This more than makes up for Williams. Give me The choice of paying 3 guys with a cap hit under the cap hit of any one single player Not named Cristian McCaffrey and I’m taking it.

You have to reconsider your approach when thinking about the cap. It doesn't make sense to solely consider one position group. The only reasonable way is to evaluate the entire roster.

No matter how you look at it there's no reason to overpay for a backup, even if it's only $2 million we're talking about.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Give me The choice of paying 3 guys with a cap hit under the cap hit of any one single player Not named Cristian McCaffrey and I’m taking it.
I would not pay McCaffrey that money. The money is somehow justified by putting the ball in his hands an excessive amount, a losing proposition. It makes the offense two-dimentional--McCaffrey and everybody else.
 

gopkrs

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You have to reconsider your approach when thinking about the cap. It doesn't make sense to solely consider one position group. The only reasonable way is to evaluate the entire roster.

No matter how you look at it there's no reason to overpay for a backup, even if it's only $2 million we're talking about.
imo you are not overpaying if he would get that on the open market. It just comes down to I think he is worth it and you don't. He is 2nd or 3rd string. And I keep Ervin too though I see him more as a special teams player. And that matters because we need someone there. His ability on the field makes Ervin worthwhile also imho. But then that is it for the RBs. Just don't like the other Williams. And no reason to keep a lesser talent at the RB position because he is cheap.
 
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imo you are not overpaying if he would get that on the open market. It just comes down to I think he is worth it and you don't. He is 2nd or 3rd string. And I keep Ervin too though I see him more as a special teams player. And that matters because we need someone there. His ability on the field makes Ervin worthwhile also imho. But then that is it for the RBs. Just don't like the other Williams. And no reason to keep a lesser talent at the RB position because he is cheap.

I highly doubt Jamaal Williams would receive $2.3 million a season in free agency. He will get paid that kind of money because of a spike based on snaps played over his first three seasons.

In addition that's a pretty skewed point of view with the rookie wage scale in place allowing teams to benefit from having players on team friendly deals for four seasons.

I'm in favor of keeping Ervin on the roster as well as the team moving on from Dexter Williams.
 
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tynimiller

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I highly doubt Jamaal Williams would receive $2.3 million a season in free agency. He will get paid that kind of money because of a spike based on snaps played over his first three seasons.

In addition that's a pretty skewed point of view with the rookie wage scale in place allowing teams to benefit from having players on team friendly deals for four seasons.

I'm in favor of keeping Ervin on the roster as well as the team moving on from Dexter Williams.

Barring an injury that man is gonna garner 2.3 in FA for sure in my opinion at least. I even think it is a possibility it is us and Jones walks cuz of how much he will take.
 
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Barring an injury that man is gonna garner 2.3 in FA for sure in my opinion at least. I even think it is a possibility it is us and Jones walks cuz of how much he will take.

I'm not convinced that Williams will receive such an offer. There are currently only 30 running backs in the league being paid that kind of money. With him possibly ending up third on the depth chart I don't see a team offering him a deal like that.

The Packers will probably le Jones walk away in free agency next offseason but I don't expect them to make Williams a priority to re-sign because of it.
 

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I would not pay McCaffrey that money. The money is somehow justified by putting the ball in his hands an excessive amount, a losing proposition. It makes the offense two-dimentional--McCaffrey and everybody else.


His cap hit for 2019 is under 8 so I would without a doubt. The numbers the next 5 seasons get gaudy so I’d agree starting next season.
 
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tynimiller

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I'm not convinced that Williams will receive such an offer. There are currently only 30 running backs in the league being paid that kind of money. With him possibly ending up third on the depth chart I don't see a team offering him a deal like that.

The Packers will probably le Jones walk away in free agency next offseason but I don't expect them to make Williams a priority to re-sign because of it.

I thought you were one in the camp not convinced he will lose spot to Dillon?

Either way, despite many of us (myself included) not liking the Dillon pick up, it makes the RB position here in Green Bay one to watch how it unfolds in the contract years of both Jones and Williams.
 

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Barring an injury that man is gonna garner 2.3 in FA for sure in my opinion at least. I even think it is a possibility it is us and Jones walks cuz of how much he will take.


I can’t wait for this board to blow up when we let them both walk and use Another second to replace them.
 

gopkrs

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I can’t wait for this board to blow up when we let them both walk and use Another second to replace them.
As long as we are winning; they can do what they want. Even though I do like those players.
 
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tynimiller

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I can’t wait for this board to blow up when we let them both walk and use Another second to replace them.

I do believe one of the two will be back, but it is also quite a viable option we do let both walk. If we do that and Dillon is the back the organization clearly thinks he is, I wouldn't be shocked if we draft a back or two next draft.
 

Fat Dogs

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As long as we are winning; they can do what they want. Even though I do like those players.


You my friend are in the minority. Most of these guys think drafting a RB earlier than a 5th is a waste of a pick. It would be pure pandemonium.
 
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tynimiller

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You my friend are in the minority. Most of these guys think drafting a RB earlier than a 5th is a waste of a pick. It would be pure pandemonium.

Well true...many on this board even, despite many not fitting this...cannot separate their personal opinions/emotions long enough to be objective about things like drafts or free agency.

Better yet, what if we trade up into the first for one LOL ...heads would explode.
 

Fat Dogs

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Well true...many on this board even, despite many not fitting this...cannot separate their personal opinions/emotions long enough to be objective about things like drafts or free agency.

Better yet, what if we trade up into the first for one LOL ...heads would explode.


Ha ha what if the trade up was with the Giants and we took on the Blake Martinez contract as part of the deal.
 

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