37 and...

[SoonerPack]

I have been on here long enough most of you know I am a pretty positive guy. I like to give guys the benefit of the doubt and find a silver lining in even the most dark of circumstances. With that being said I think it's time to start figuring out who is going to be starting opposite 37 because I just don't think Casey will end up being the reliable starter I had envisioned. It just seems that every other practice he gets dinged and can't go. I love Casey and think he can be a heckuva player but we need someone reliable lining up at the other CB position we can expect to be there more times than not. Obviously injuries happen and you can't predict who's gonna get hurt and when they will go down but 29 just can't seem to get right. When we are in-season and doing installation we need to be pretty confident that the main man out there with the 1's is going to be able to go come Sunday. Continuity is a huge component of championship runs and you need to have a good idea of who's gonna be where each week. Casey can and I hope one day be a great pro. He has flashed in his brief stint in the league and shown himself more than capable of being a playmaker. My concern is possibly stunting the growth of one/some of the youngsters in hopes of 29 being able to answer the bell come kick. I am not saying cut the guy or anything silly like that rather until he can prove himself able to stay on the field maybe we should consider him a bonus if cleared. I see Rollins got some reps with the 1's today and I loved hearing that. With CH's history of injuries, chances are these boys (Rollins, Randall or Gunter) are going to be seeing live ammo sooner rather than later. I would rather one of them get the call early and get the bumps and bruises out of the way early opposed to late in the season once the inevitable injury hits. Going back to my original sentence I am a positive guy and maybe I am off on this one but this post is something I've thought about for some time now. I would love nothing more than for Casey to have the kind of season we all know he can have but I just can't envision him being healthy enough to do so. Maybe I am overreacting but I hope the trend of the youngsters getting quality first team reps continues as it will only serve us well come regular season. Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I still think Hayward is the front runner to start opposite Shields but his injuries are a major concern (according to the Packers he missed today's practice because of a quad injury). After watching the Patriots game I feel more comfortable if either Rollins or Gunter would have to play outside though.

 

[TJV]

I’m not sure what the OP is advocating for. Is it to have Hayward sit in favor of one of the youngsters, even when Hayward is healthy? If so, that doesn’t make any sense to me: In essence you would be telling Hayward, 'even though you’re the best option, you’re going to sit because we anticipate you will get injured in the future'. The way they are proceeding makes the most sense to me: Whitt believes a healthy Hayward is the best option opposite Shields. So he should start and if someone else beats him out for the starting job, so be it. When Hayward is sitting out, whoever they consider the next best option (right now that looks like Rollins) gets snaps with the 1s. And when the regular season begins, if Hayward is the starter I expect them to move him to the slot in the dime and have Rollins or Randall (or perhaps Gunter?) take over outside. So even if Hayward is healthy, a youngster is likely to get meaningful snaps outside. (BTW, don’t tell the 2010 Packers how important continuity is! )

 

[Deleted member 6794]

And when the regular season begins, if Hayward is the starter I expect them to move him to the slot in the dime and have Rollins or Randall (or perhaps Gunter?) take over outside. So even if Hayward is healthy, a youngster is likely to get meaningful snaps outside. (BTW, don’t tell the 2010 Packers how important continuity is! )

I've read about that several times within the last few days but I'm not convinced it will actually happen. Rollins has practiced in the slot as well and IMO it would make sense to play him inside in the dime package.

 

[TJV]

The new Packers beat writer at jsonline has an interesting blog entry today. He reports that Joe Whitt has developed a rating system he applies to CBs in TC.

The star system, as he calls it, rates each one of the Packers' offensive players based on talent, with a 5-star player sitting atop the list. From there, Whitt takes into account the star rating of 1) the quarterback throwing a pass and 2) the receiver catching it. Those two numbers are added together to form a point total for one particular play. "Aaron (Rodgers) is a 5-star; Jordy (Nelson) is a 5-star," Whitt said. "So if you make a play on that, that’s a 10-star play. That’s how it’s all evaluated. You’ve got to make some of those 10-star plays; don’t make a lot of those 4-star plays.

Better yet, he shares the ratings with all the CBs so they don’t have to wonder why some are getting more reps than others. The result this week is Gunter has earned reps with the 1s. Of course it’s not a perfect system as “making a play” is still subjective but it lets the players know where they stand and Gunter being ahead of Rollins and Randall – even if just for the time being – is more than paying lip service to the idea of a meritocracy, it’s putting it into action.

IMO that’s a good idea from Whitt and a good reporting from the rookie.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/322465971.html

 

[vince]

I've read about that several times within the last few days but I'm not convinced it will actually happen. Rollins has practiced in the slot as well and IMO it would make sense to play him inside in the dime package.

I agree with this. Hayward is a very good cover-man inside but he is not a good blitzer. Far too often he gets out of control and either runs by or is easily pushed past the QB.

Rollins has shown to be a physical tackler and has great control on the run. Whether it's nickel, dime or some exotic personnel package Dom might dream up, I think Rollins and Hyde are the best options in the slot, especially when it comes to pressing the line of scrimmage, defending the run, and blitzing. Hayard's a cover-man and play-maker when the ball's in the air. He's not the guy to move inside and try to confuse the offense about who's coming and from where. He's the guy to sit back, anticipate, and capitalize when it works.

 

[PackFan2]

just don't think Casey will end up being the reliable starter I had envisioned. It just seems that every other practice he gets dinged and can't go

I agree. I'm expecting one of the 3 rookies to take over the spot.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree with this. Hayward is a very good cover-man inside but he is not a good blitzer. Far too often he gets out of control and either runs by or is easily pushed past the QB.

Rollins has shown to be a physical tackler and has great control on the run. Whether it's nickel, dime or some exotic personnel package Dom might dream up, I think Rollins and Hyde are the best options in the slot, especially when it comes to pressing the line of scrimmage, defending the run, and blitzing. Hayard's a cover-man and play-maker when the ball's in the air. He's not the guy to move inside and try to confuse the offense about who's coming and from where. He's the guy to sit back, anticipate, and capitalize when it works.

The Packers blitzed a cornerback on only 2.9% of the passing plays, so I don´t think Hayward´s ability to rush the passer is a deciding factor to keep him on the outside. In addition he was the best run defender out of the position group last season. With Hyde and hopefully Rollins being capable of playing in the slot I don´t feel the need to move Hayward inside in nickel or dime packages.

 

[TJV]

I've read about that several times within the last few days but I'm not convinced it will actually happen. Rollins has practiced in the slot as well and IMO it would make sense to play him inside in the dime package.

From Wilde's '5 things to watch' in tonight's game:

Corner lot: Cornerbacks coach Joe Whitt wasn’t about to give reporters – and, by extension, the Chicago Bears – information on how he sees the Packers’ secondary hierarchy shaking out, but Whitt did say this week that Casey Hayward will remain the starting cornerback opposite Sam Shields and Micah Hyde and Hayward will be the inside slot defenders in the nickel and dime units, respectively. The only position in question, then, is who’ll be the sixth defensive back in the dime, where Hayward will move inside and one of three rookies – first-round pick Damarious Randall, second-round pick Quinten Rollins or undrafted free agent LaDarius Gunter – will come off the bench to play the outside spot. “I already know who that’s going to be,” Whitt said. “But there’s no reason to let Chicago know.

http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=21451&is_corp=1

BTW Goodson was apparently coming on before he got injured again:

The same cornerback rating system that afforded undrafted rookie LaDarius Gunter a chance to work with the starting defense spit out numbers indicating Demetri Goodson was worthy of reward. Back on the practice field after missing two weeks with a calf injury, Goodson strung together a run of impressive practices that caught the attention of coach Joe Whitt Jr. "Three days in a row — boom, boom, boom," Whitt said. But on the cusp of a serious audition, Goodson immediately suffered another injury this week, this time to his knee, and his recent stockpile of success began to crumble. ... "It’s a bad thing because the day before he gets hurt, I had moved him ahead of the other three guys that everybody talks about," said Whitt, referencing Gunter and fellow rookies Damarious Randall and Quinten Rollins. "Then he gets hurt the next day.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/323960751.html
That's really too bad because Goodson's athletic ability was the reason they kept him instead of Rolle and if he was starting to better learn the D and techniques necessary...

 

[7thFloorRA]

IMO Casey is starting until he plays so awful on the outside and or gets hurt that he gets moved back to the slot and Gunter/Randall or Hyde take over outside. Those guys all have skills that translate to the outside. Casey does not. He is short, slow and not durable. He is a ball hawk though but that really doesn't apply to outside coverage like it does inside.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

From Wilde's '5 things to watch' in tonight's game: http://www.espnwisconsin.com/common/page.php?feed=2&id=21451&is_corp=1

Not surprisingly it seems I was 100% inaccurate with my prediction.

IMO Casey is starting until he plays so awful on the outside and or gets hurt that he gets moved back to the slot and Gunter/Randall or Hyde take over outside. Those guys all have skills that translate to the outside. Casey does not. He is short, slow and not durable. He is a ball hawk though but that really doesn't apply to outside coverage like it does inside.

Hayward hasn't been impressive in practice or preseason games. I'm wuite sure he'll be on an extremely short leash enterting the season.

 

[Vrill]

I want Gunter in his spot if his play ends up stinking. I think Gunter is going to be a good one.

 

[HardRightEdge]

From Wilde's '5 things to watch' in tonight's game:

"but Whitt did say this week that Casey Hayward will remain the starting cornerback opposite Sam Shields and Micah Hyde and Hayward will be the inside slot defenders in the nickel and dime units, respectively."

This use of Hayward is reminiscent of how Woodson was used in 2010...outside in base, and then inside in nickel/dime with a speedier if inexperienced player (Shields as the season wore on, now perhaps Randall) on the perimeter. Given the high volume of nickel snaps, it will be interesting to see how those inside snaps are divided up between Hyde and Hayward as things move along, though the "respectively" indicates Hyde will get the volume in nickel as the current plan.

The thinking would seem to be as follows:

First, base D is reserved for the traditional run downs. The tackling ability of the perimeter corner comes into play against the run or run-substitutes aimed at getting a few yards, such as bubble screens, so it gets more heavily weighted in base. Randall, as currently constituted, is not that guy. Further, Hayward is the experienced player, more apt to read what's coming and handle isolation coverage in base, such as a 1st. down play action. That's a compromise outweighing the better speed Randall would bring.

Conversely, in nickel and dime, Hayward has proved to be a zone ball hawk in the past, and Randall would be less exposed to the run in these tweener and long yardage snaps, while also more likely to have somebody covering his inexperienced back in a 5- or 6- DB set.

I use Randall in this example because (1) in a redux of the Woodson-Shields combo, Randall most closely approximates the rookie Shields in speed and raw coverage skills, (2) it's Randall's job to lose right up to the last practice...he's the first rounder, bought and paid for, and (3) given Hayward was a known quantity going into the draft this alignment was likely projected from the moment Randall was picked.

That's not to say Randall doesn't play up to that billing by the time the coin is flipped on opening day, but you can bet your bottom dollar that's the way the organization would like to see it work out.

There are a couple of problems with the approach, foremost of which are that Hayward is not the 2010 version of Woodson and Randall is not the 2010 version of Shields, at least not yet.

This could be like getting the band back together and taking it on the road, but with the lead singer having been replaced. The stadiums get filled and all of the greatest hits get played, but somehow the results are not quite as satisfying as the original.

 

[Sky King]

Randall, Rollins and Gunter are all hitters. Hayward not so much. As the season unfolds it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see one of them supplant Hayward on the outside, and the best blitzer of the bunch on the inside. Hayward needs to stay healthy because those guys are going to push him.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Randall, Rollins and Gunter are all hitters. Hayward not so much. As the season unfolds it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see one of them supplant Hayward on the outside, and the best blitzer of the bunch on the inside. Hayward needs to stay healthy because those guys are going to push him.

It's highly possible one of them will take over for Hayward on the outside. I don't see any of the rookies moving ahead of him on the depth chart at nickel or dime corner though.

 

[HardRightEdge]

Randall, Rollins and Gunter are all hitters. Hayward not so much. As the season unfolds it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see one of them supplant Hayward on the outside, and the best blitzer of the bunch on the inside. Hayward needs to stay healthy because those guys are going to push him.

Randall was and is an ankle biter. After re-watching this last preseason game with some focus on the CBs, I don't believe Randall or Rollins are ready for prime time on the perimeter if Hayward is going to play nickel/dime back.

It should be Gunter, but will it be? What a front office embarrassment that would be: a UDFA beating out the 1st. and 2nd. round picks.