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tynimiller

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Good format on the pressures or makes it easy on the eyes.

I always saw some Edge as pure Pass Rushers while others are more Well Rounded players. I see Hendrickson and Crosby as that respectively, but are more top notch examples than Rashan. Not suggesting Gary is either but he falls more under the “poor man’s” version of Maxx Crosby. Gary isn’t a game wrecker like Crosby, but he’s well rounded. He’s got bend, he’s got Bull, he’s got hand technique, but he also does a really nice job of being patient and setting an Edge and you’ll rarely beat him outside. In the mold of a Preston Smith style player. Yet those guys don’t normally demand Top $$ even in their prime. In today’s market that’s the $11-$19 annual player. Gary falls square in that realm. No way do you pay him $24Mil annual and if I’m not mistaken that inflated deal gave him an inflated $ego$ concerning his monetary value and an inflated Cap hit on top of it.
Again, Dallas overpaid a smidge but they’re getting closer in line with his market. He’s worth a 2yr $35-$36Mil and Dallas took on 2yr $41.5mil I believe?

I fully can support the poor man's Trey...Maxx is a lot more animal than either of those and was what I think Gary would have become if his body allowed or his heart pushed through to (if even possible...sometimes the body simply cannot).
 
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I fully can support the poor man's Trey...Maxx is a lot more animal than either of those and was what I think Gary would have become if his body allowed or his heart pushed through to (if even possible...sometimes the body simply cannot).
What would you think of Josh Sweat?
@tynimiller

I’m asking because I remember him standing out in the combine, but I kinda lost track of him. Apparently news surfacing about him requesting a trade. He’s also very closely tied to Gannon going back to Gannon’s time at Philly and likely came to Arizona because of his ties to our DC.

 
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tynimiller

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This is a bit of a tangent, but to me this suggests that not all pressures are "created equal" and there really probably could be a benefit to some sort of more advanced metric that tries to quantify the "danger" of a given pressure.

In the case of Gary, as illustrated...his total pressures remained fairly consistent over the course of the season even when Parsons went out. But what is interesting to me is that his production dropped BEFORE Parsons was gone.

For the first 8 weeks of the season Gary averaged ~3.4 combined tackles, ~1.9 solo tackles, and just under 1 TFL per game. He had 7.5 sacks along with that.
For the back half of the season... that plummeted to 2.25 combined tackles, 1.25 solo tackles, and ZERO tackles for loss or sacks week 8 or later.

Generally you would expect to see either A.) a pronounced improvement in performance, benefitting from playing alongside an addition like Parsons or B.) a steep decline coinciding with Parsons' injury but we didn't really definitively get either one. Gary saw a modest boost with Parsons added but not a huge one, and again his dropoff occurred well before Parsons went out injured. Micah didn't get injured until the Denver game, which means there'd still been 6 games in a row in which Gary didn't log a single TFL or sack in spite of relatively decent and consistent pressure production. Again this suggests to me that not all pressures are equal and not every pressure is a "dangerous" one (and it wasn't really a case of "freeing other guys up" - sometimes you might see a guy create pressures that others benefit from even if they don't log the production themselves. That didn't happen in this case; total team sack/TFL production did not improve or remain consistent tracking with Gary's dropoff either).

Of course I'm not saying we disregard pressures entirely, I'd rather have a guy who is generating them rather than not, but this is in part why for me they are a very, very limited/incomplete way to assess a player's impact. Gary's sustained pressure rate did not really benefit him, nor did it particularly benefit the team, nor did it allow him to step up when Parsons went down. Yes, production numbers themselves also don't tell the whole story - you can log tackles/stats that aren't particularly meaningful/impactful, OR have a big impact that doesn't always get you on the stat sheet, but by the same measure IMO you can log a lot of "empty" pressures too

Absolutely right that not all pressures are equal - and really pushes back against the narratives that so many cling to a statline solely and I love seeing more people express this thought process. It's why folks just clueless about WR production think Doubs is a slouch just because of his yards....or folks that don't realize how deadly Watson is when on the field, by metrics beyond whether he is getting the ball or not...

Love it!

I will say though, it is VERY rare that you have a player that is impactful and a difference maker along the edge that doesn't also continue to rise up the pressure rates - it is a strong correlation. There are however some guys that are crazy anomalies that are pass rush specialists that don't have the strength to fight through and maybe get a pressure with secondary moves, but they sure do use their speed to maybe get a sack often enough that by year's end they are piddly in pressures but high in sack totals.
 

tynimiller

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What would you think of Josh Sweat?

I’m asking because I remember him standing out in the combine, but I kinda lost track of him. Apparently news surfacing about him requesting a trade. He’s also very closely tied to Gannon going back to Gannon’s time at Philly and likely came to Arizona because of his ties to our DC.


I'd embrace a Sweat move depending on what it would take.
 

tynimiller

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Do you think he’d require Rashan compensation? Is he a fair trade pick equivalent (RD4)

Honestly yea. If I'm Gute I'm working a deal that is a 2027 conditional and maybe a swap this year. Something like:

We get Josh Sweat and 5.141
They get 2026 - 4.120 & a conditional 2027 pick that starts with a 4th but could get to a 3rd depending on production of some kind and starts.
 

Sanguine camper

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Absolutely right that not all pressures are equal - and really pushes back against the narratives that so many cling to a statline solely and I love seeing more people express this thought process. It's why folks just clueless about WR production think Doubs is a slouch just because of his yards....or folks that don't realize how deadly Watson is when on the field, by metrics beyond whether he is getting the ball or not...

Love it!

I will say though, it is VERY rare that you have a player that is impactful and a difference maker along the edge that doesn't also continue to rise up the pressure rates - it is a strong correlation. There are however some guys that are crazy anomalies that are pass rush specialists that don't have the strength to fight through and maybe get a pressure with secondary moves, but they sure do use their speed to maybe get a sack often enough that by year's end they are piddly in pressures but high in sack totals.
The really good pass rushers are able to turn their pressures into sacks more frequently because their pressure starts earlier. They have the split second to get to the QB. When Reggie was in his prime, he was in the backfield pronto. Whether he used his bull rush, toss move or swim move, he was close to the QB and could finish.

A lot of middling pass rushers piie up pressure rates but they don't have a very big impact because their pressures take too long. They're basically just clean up guys.
 

tynimiller

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The really good pass rushers are able to turn their pressures into sacks more frequently because their pressure starts earlier. They have the split second to get to the QB. When Reggie was in his prime, he was in the backfield pronto. Whether he used his bull rush, toss move or swim move, he was close to the QB and could finish.

A lot of middling pass rushers piie up pressure rates but they don't have a very big impact because their pressures take too long. They're basically just clean up guys.

I would argue there are also as I described middling pass rushers who get sacks but are not pressure creators or influencing as many plays...I would assume (not checked) they are more rare than the other way but they do infact exist I see it all the time in prospect analysis in college for draft...oh this guy has 10 sacks and this dude only has 4....but the 10 guy has 20 pressures while the 4 has 42....deeper film review shows the 4 / 42 guy sees more chips and doubles and still found a way to influence the play...the other is a speed rusher that either gets home or handled.
 

tynimiller

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I would argue there are also as I described middling pass rushers who get sacks but are not pressure creators or influencing as many plays...I would assume (not checked) they are more rare than the other way but they do infact exist I see it all the time in prospect analysis in college for draft...oh this guy has 10 sacks and this dude only has 4....but the 10 guy has 20 pressures while the 4 has 42....deeper film review shows the 4 / 42 guy sees more chips and doubles and still found a way to influence the play...the other is a speed rusher that either gets home or handled.

@Sanguine camper Expansion of that thought...Below are the guys (DE labeled in PFF) in the league with 5 or more sacks this past year...the yellow colomns are Sacks | Sacks/Game and Orange is Pressures | Pressures/Game

You'll note guys like Brian Burns, Josh Sweat, Al-Quadin Muhammad, Montez Sweat, James Pearce, Von Miller, Cameron Jordan, Jonathon Cooper and Alex Highsmith all had crazy odd low pressures per game rate for a dude with double digit sacks...especially the dude's bolded that were sub 3 (Gary was 3.38 for instance)

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milani

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I actually felt Gary looked quite consistent during the year, which was a shell of himself and continued regression of his play, albeit still good relative to a lot of guys on rosters for sure.

So Gary averaged 3.53 pressures a game for the season + wildcard (60 total out of 17 games)

His pressures per game from Week 1 to WC are below:

5
4
4
0
4
4
5
3
2
2
4
1
4
5
4
3
6

His pressure production at least seemed quite consistent.

Gary still has immense value (depending on how one defines immense) but he is no longer a game wrecker in the pass rush category...still quite good relative to his counterparts but not the gamechanger level of money that his contract indicates he should be.
Trying to chase Caleb Williams for 3 games late in the season can change a pass rushers numbers. Rather face Jeff Goff or Joe Flacco.
 

milani

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I fully can support the poor man's Trey...Maxx is a lot more animal than either of those and was what I think Gary would have become if his body allowed or his heart pushed through to (if even possible...sometimes the body simply cannot).
The spirit was willing but the flesh was just too much.
 

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I would argue there are also as I described middling pass rushers who get sacks but are not pressure creators or influencing as many plays...I would assume (not checked) they are more rare than the other way but they do infact exist I see it all the time in prospect analysis in college for draft...oh this guy has 10 sacks and this dude only has 4....but the 10 guy has 20 pressures while the 4 has 42....deeper film review shows the 4 / 42 guy sees more chips and doubles and still found a way to influence the play...the other is a speed rusher that either gets home or handled.
Kyle Fackrell is a great example of a fluke double digit sack season. It sometimes happens opposite a great pass rusher that flushes the QB right into the arms of a very middling pass rusher. In Fackrell's case, CM3 was great at getting early pressure only to see the QB bail out on the opposite side.
 

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Wilson may get A LOT of early season work with the Hawks, as Charbonnet won't be ready for action until early November-ish. Kind of surprised Wilson didn't get more $$.
Yeah. The language I read almost had a bit of disappointment in it from his corner. It was a stiff good buy. I guess I don’t blame him he’s an average RB2 and it’s not unusual to get paid in that $3-$5M type area. At least a 2yr deal

Yet my hunch is GB is looking at taking a RB in Day 3 for security (those late Day 3 are always fun at RB).
 

milani

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Yeah. The language I read almost had a bit of disappointment in it from his corner. It was a stiff good buy. I guess I don’t blame him he’s an average RB2 and it’s not unusual to get paid in that $3-$5M type area. At least a 2yr deal

Yet my hunch is GB is looking at taking a RB in Day 3 for security (those late Day 3 are always fun at RB).
I think had Lloyd made it Wilson may not have been on the roster. They signed Brooks because he can block and we do not have a FB. Gute will be shopping.
 
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I think had Lloyd made it Wilson may not have been on the roster. They signed Brooks because he can block and we do not have a FB. Gute will be shopping.
I like Emmanuel. Yet he’s got to be aware that a backup RB in today’s game doesn’t have the contract emphasis of years past. I hate to use the term dime a dozen but that’s how he got paid compared to a RB1. You can quite often draft a RB in Day3 and pay $4mil over 4 years. Why would we want to spend $3.5M—$4mil yearly or say $15mil over the same period

Heck there’s experienced RB’s like Aaron Jones making $4m or whatever. Is Wilsons agent expecting more $ than AJ33?
 

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I like Emmanuel. Yet he’s got to be aware that a backup RB in today’s game doesn’t have the contract emphasis of years past. I hate to use the term dime a dozen but that’s how he got paid compared to a RB1. You can quite often draft a RB in Day3 and pay $4mil over 4 years. Why would we want to spend $3.5M—$4mil yearly or say $15mil over the same period

Heck there’s experienced RB’s like Aaron Jones making $4m or whatever. Is Wilsons agent expecting more $ than AJ33?
I really like both backs, but since you're comparing both... Aaron Jones is 31 yrs old & took a pay cut (down from $7mil to $5mil) to stay in MN. Emmanuel Wilson is 26 yrs old & signed a 1yr/$2.1mil deal with Seattle. Wilson will probably get A LOT of work early in the season while Charbonnet rehabs his ACL.

I would've expected those two salaries to be flip-flopped just due to age & player health/availability. Not sure why Wilson accepted that deal, but it's his career. :(
 

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I don't know how long Wilson will be the starter. But it sounds like he will start the season that way. He will have a chance, if that's the case, to show what he can do. I thought he ran faster and stronger to the line last year. So he might gave a chance to show what he can do with a better line. I always liked him so we'll see.
 

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I really like both backs, but since you're comparing both... Aaron Jones is 31 yrs old & took a pay cut (down from $7mil to $5mil) to stay in MN. Emmanuel Wilson is 26 yrs old & signed a 1yr/$2.1mil deal with Seattle. Wilson will probably get A LOT of work early in the season while Charbonnet rehabs his ACL.

I would've expected those two salaries to be flip-flopped just due to age & player health/availability. Not sure why Wilson accepted that deal, but it's his career. :(
Wilson just wants to get on the field. He had his best game last year against the Vikings. It is what all players want. That is to play. I recall when the Packers in 1995 would use both Edgar Bennett and Dorsey Levens separately or even together in the same backfield. Both could run, pass, and block. Levels became the feature back when Bennett tore his ACL in preseason of 1997 and was gone in 1998.
 

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