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Why worry about the running game?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by tromadz, Oct 2, 2007.

  1. MassPackersFan
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    MassPackersFan Cheesehead

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    Is Colledge the guy to single out? Every good run we've had, I've seen him set up the block that broke the guy free. Go watch Wynn's TD run again.
  2. millertime
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    millertime Cheesehead

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    He never said we should run it a lot every game. He simply said that eventually we will have tom which I agree with.

    I am soooo happy the Packers are 4-0. But if you talk to New England and Colts fans, they will always be complaining about some aspect of their team. Indy fans complain about defense, New England fans complain about the kickers and their secondary.

    Just because a team has a perfect record does not mean that they are perfect. The concerns about the running game are legit in the eyes of many Packer fans.

    I agree with you that a great test will be that Denver game. Not because of their weak run defense but because of their great corners. Champ Bailey and Dre Bly will be giving our WR's fits all game. I really think that to beat Denver we will have to run the ball. We'll see though...
  3. Zero2Cool
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    Zero2Cool Cheesehead

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    Not trying to argue or anything here, but didn't Ted draft guys specifically for ZBS?

    Eeek!

    I'm not going to act like a OL genius, its not my strong spot at all, but don't we have a by average small OL?

    I haven't paid much attention to the OL this season except in pass protection.
  4. MassPackersFan
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    MassPackersFan Cheesehead

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    Yeah, lighter quicker linemen. To be honest, Clifton is the guy I was most worried about in the ZBS, especially with his knees. I don't know how it's gone for him though. Haven't noticed him getting blown up or anything.
  5. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Then I misunderstood. My bad.

    And I swore I said that in my previous posts.
  6. abztractmynd
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    abztractmynd Cheesehead

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    would all of you like some wine with that cheese?
  7. packer4ever
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    packer4ever Cheesehead

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    SMELL THE GLOVE CHRISTMAS TREE :twisted:
  8. Zombieslayer
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    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    All right. I get the Spinal Tap reference but what's with the Christmas Tree?
  9. Timmons
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    Timmons Cheesehead

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    It is getting old watching some members shoot a great topic right in the butt.

    I agree with Trom. How can you judge a running game that we haven't used? And I don't know who said it above, but don't look for a running game against the Bears.

    One more thing I would like to see more of with our lighter faster O-linemen is the screen play. In the flats or in the middle. It seems that DE's in this league sniff out a screen faster than DT's. I would like to see a few more middle screens, and no, not the freaking shovel pass. (I hate that play!)
  10. warhawk
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    warhawk Cheesehead

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    My take on this is simple. We haven't run it enough to run it well. MM is looking at that clipboard and see's what's working and says himself he SHOULD be calling the run more but is calling what's working.

    IF these guys we're not stout enough to run block I would think that would carry over even MORE in pass protection. If your not big enough or strong enough to hang in there they would be getting steamrolled in pass protection.

    Typically an offensive line is either good or not good but when I hear talk about a certain "0" line I very seldom hear they are very good at one thing and very lousy at another.

    I'm also not so sure this is all the offensive line. We all know the two guys with any experience went down right befor the season. Now MM has to decide if he wants to go two back with very little experience at either TB or FB.
    Will they pick up the pass protection package when they don't run it?

    How much of the playbook do they have command of?

    Can we get third down production out of a young guy now that Heron went down?

    Would it be smart to go two back offense when they could only realistically grasp half the plays?

    The bottom line question for Mike McCarthy so far has been "do I throw a two back formation in there and put them right in the fire or do I give the ball to Brett Favre?"

    He decided to go with Brett. Smart move. As the RB's get where they need to be to run a two back I'm sure we'll see it work. Until then who can bitch?
  11. Pack93z
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    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    To me, it comes down to the technique that they are using within the overall scheme. Pass protection is a different beast than run blocking and especially cut blocks. In pass protection you are playing high in the stance, head up and more dependent on hand play. It is apparent they like playing with their pads up, because they are excelling in pass protection.

    In drive blocking you need to move the player out of a space, thus you need to play with leverage to beat them. In the successful ZB team, they cut block alot, basically imobilizing the defender and allowing the hole to form naturally. But for whatever reason, we are not cutting the defenders down, instead we are trying to block them head up. What I noticed for a couple of games is that we are playing high in the stance and we are getting stoned at the LOS sometimes we are getting knocked backwards. So between not cutting them down, body blocking instead to high in the stance we are allowing the D to flow to which ever hole these backs try to hit.

    To me, it is their technique moreso than anything. The interior lineman are not maulers at this point. Who knows they could be if we actually tried to knock the dline out of the holes. But instead we are playing man up and getting it handed to us at the LOS.

    Who knows what the backs have, since they haven't seen a ton of opening yet. But with the creases Wynn had it took on to the house and Jackson is a downhill runner for the most part.. meaning always picking up what is there foreward.

    Sooner or later we will find a method that works up front and it will take off.. I think the talent is there.. just execution.
  12. warhawk
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    warhawk Cheesehead

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    That's all fine and good but you still have to committ to the two back system and believe you can produce out of it consistantly.

    When the Packers put the two back typical run formation on the field for a length of time and committ to it is when we will know if it works or if it doesn't.

    That means they have to commit to going AWAY from what they have been doing that has been working very well.

    I just fail to believe that the offensive line has just lost all the technigue they learned on the ZBS from last year. That theory just seems to fly in the face of reason to me.

    All I'm saying is it looks to me like when they put the two backs in there it's for all the world to see they are going to run. Until they consistantly use that formation and have success running their entire offense out of it I doubt it will work that great.

    It seems to me that it would be a stretch to put our backs out there for the majority of the game and do ALL of the things they need to do in order for the offense to function properly. Now as the season goes on I can see asking more and more.
  13. pack_in_black
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    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Good post, 93.

    I think that the technique is definitely lacking, but I'd say that falls on the coaching staff, not the players. It seems like everything that goes bad, this coaching staff seems to pick up on and get corrected. And if you look around the league, they seem to fix problems pretty quick by comparison.

    what are the knocks on the Packers right now?

    Run defense: good
    Pass defense: good/should become great
    Pass offense: Favre.
    Pass protection: good/almost darn good
    Run blocking: undeclared/poor technique
    Running backs: Good in pass pro/No opportunities to run


    I'd say we're a good team this year.
  14. Pack93z
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    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    I have said time after time, first they have to commit to the run, so we agree there.

    Go check out a December 06 game tape and then pop in a Sept 07 tape... they aren't using the same technique, pad level nor are we putting the Dline on the ground. Don't know how.. we just are playing the same. So you look at the varibles that have changed... Jags out, Philbin and Campen running the show.

    Just my take on it.. and yes I spent a little time watching it late Sunday and Monday because I was under the weather and stuck on the couch. But alas not in the locker room or huddle, so that is just an outside observation.

    Campen is a fiery type of guy... so the heat will be on the line this week and until it gets cleaned up.

    I agree also that we need to have some solid time for these FB to get into a groove and help hammer some of the LBers down as well.
  15. warhawk
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    warhawk Cheesehead

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    What you are saying here is that the coaches have been virtually spot on in every aspect of the game but run blocking technique. I have to say, once again, that really just defies logic.

    When I see a run play called I watch the offensive line moving down either right or left. Mostly left. I watch the defense and they flow right down with it and the LB's come up filling the gaps. The math is not there.

    And ain't no technique going to fix that. Again, you have to run all your stuff out of those formations which PREVENTS the LB's from shooting gaps and keeps defensive linemen from cheating down line.

    If I'm going to be critical of the coaches it's not about an inability to teach technique. I would say our run game formations make that aspect of our offense to predictable.

    We run a lot of three receiver, one back, and empty backfield. When we throw in the two backs I see defenses load up for the run.

    This is why I say we will have to transition back to a traditional two back offense and run everything in the playbook out of it before we are going to see any great results in the run game.
  16. pack_in_black
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    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    I'm really not a good analyst of anything running-game wise, but I've noticed that a whole lot of the negative-yardage rushes have been due in large part to some insanely quick penetration by the D-line up our middle. Like, it's always straight up the center, whether the DT or a DE on a stunt, but they come in almost untouched it seems like.

    Maybe it's blown assignments, maybe it's players getting overpowered? :shrug:
  17. pack_in_black
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    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    I wouldn't say neccesarily everything needs to be run out of a two back set, but I do agree that those formations seem to just telegraph our intentions.

    A higher percentage of passes out of those sets would do the trick then, I suppose.
  18. warhawk
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    warhawk Cheesehead

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    That's running the two back set with a full playbook.

    No. We don't run the two back exclusively. I'm not suggesting that. But in order for it to work this formation needs to be out there repetitively on consecutive series and running everything we have out of it.

    They run two backs out there now and then like we have and you get a stampede.

    My guess is MM looked at all this after losing Heron AND Mo and said "wow, I just can't throw those guys out there and bet the ranch we can sustain drives that way." He was probably right and I highly doubt we would be close to 4-0 right now.

    Doesn't mean all is lost regarding the run. I would be willing to bet they could put the two back out there consistantly at this point and have some success with it. As long as the backs are ready to do it all and have the playbook down which should be the case by now.
  19. KGB94SACKEM
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    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    The issue for me lies in watching the Colts game vs. Denver. Indy is up by 14 in the 4th and they just kept grinding it out, getting first downs and keeping the clock rolling. It also sets up some Play Action and such.

    We need to run the ball, sooner or later. If we had success doing it and just were not doing it much I wouldn't be concerned. However when we try it looks borderline pathetic.

    I hope they get it fixed or it may be time to think about doing away with the ZBS or finding personel that can run it and/or teach it correctly
  20. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Who woulda thought running it under 20 times total wouldn't get great results.

    Oh, just about everyone.

    :)

    week 8.
  21. KGB94SACKEM
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    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    Not sure what you are saying. Because we don't run much that it makes it OK to do it terribly when we try? Jackson is not even averaging 3 yards a carry. That is pretty bad. We can't run the ball, if we could we would at least try. I think that is a problem. We need to straighten it out.
  22. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    read my initial post, please. I think you missed it.
  23. KGB94SACKEM
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    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    All I see is you saying we should judge our running game off of week 8. That makes little sense. Of course you should be able to run against bad teams. What about the other teams? What do you do when you are up by 7 with the ball with 2:00 left? Do you pass the ball?

    You have to run the ball. You do not need to average 150 yards a game but you need to be able to run to put teams away on occasion. I don't worry that we are last in the league in rushing, as we have not ran it much. I worry about the fact that we can't do it when we try.
  24. tromadz
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    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Easy, you do WHAT WORKS!

    Sometimes it's running, but with this offense that has great QB|WR talent, guess what it's going to be. Go on, guess.

    Even when it's against top 10 teams and our backs are banged up. Riiiight.
  25. KGB94SACKEM
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    KGB94SACKEM Cheesehead

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    Ok, I simply disagree. I don't pass the ball up by 7 with 2:00 left. I would hope MM would run the ball, but with no running game he just might pass. Sure hope that works.

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