Fire Joe Barry -- Updated -- he's gone

[Dantés]

Is this due to MLF's offensive philosophy?

It’s due to that and to the fact that Barry’s defense allows slower scoring drives.

 

[longtimefan]

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[rmontro]

It’s due to that and to the fact that Barry’s defense allows slower scoring drives.

Could be a bit of both. Seems like our O has been more ball control this year. They had that nice drive Sunday that took up half the first quarter.

 

[PackerDNA]

Barry and the defense have been somewhere better this year, but there's still a lot of room for improvement. If they don't crap the bed the rest of the season, he'll be back next season.

 

[milani]

Some telling team stats on Barry's defense:

Pts/Game: 20.3 (9th)

Pts/Drive: 1.90 (18th)

Yds/Play: 5.2 (15th)

Net Yds/Pass: 5.8 (9th)

Yds/Rush: 4.5 (27th)

3rd Down Def: 41.4% (24th)

RZ TD Def: 48.8% (8th)

On the surface, Barry's defense appears to be above average (9th in points allowed). However, that's somewhat misleading because the Packers' defense tends to see fewer drives than others (their 125 drives against is 3rd fewest in the league). On a per-play and per-drive basis, they're average.

They're bad on 3rd downs, but good in the red-zone.

Like it or not, the philosophy of this defense involves protecting against the explosive play at the cost of allowing easy yards. Let teams march down the field and then force field goals. It's a frustrating style to watch because it feels soft (and in a lot of ways, it is). But he isn't going anywhere any time soon.

And that kind of defense is on the field maybe longer and will not only wear down eventually but has an increased risk of injury from having to perform so many plays. Petine played pass first almost always and we got burned nonetheless. Capers both blitzed and sat back in zones and opponents still made a lot of big plays.

It’s due to that and to the fact that Barry’s defense allows slower scoring drives.

Kind of like a slow death.

 

[Dantés]

And that kind of defense is on the field maybe longer and will not only wear down eventually but has an increased risk of injury from having to perform so many plays. Petine played pass first almost always and we got burned nonetheless. Capers both blitzed and sat back in zones and opponents still made a lot of big plays.

Kind of like a slow death.

It's only death if you're consistently allowing touchdowns at the end. If you're holding teams to field goals more often than not, it's viable.

But you're right, there are serious drawbacks. It also makes the defense look better than it is. For example, Barry's defense got a lot of credit for holding KC to 19 points. Well, they only had 7 true drives in the entire game. That's 2.7 points/drive. For perspective, the worst points/drive on the season right now is Washington at 2.52.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

But your entire premise here is faulty because I fail to see where our offense has been "sacrificed" as you claim. On the contrary, our historically young offense is playing VERY well over the last month and has been steadily improving all year. We don't even know how high the ceiling is for these guys. So again, how has the offense been sacrificed? Unless you value where guys were drafted over the actual results of the draft.



Do you have solid data to back up this claim? Because I'm not seeing any kind of objective analysis here. What criteria are you using to define "help?" I know there are a lot of teams out there who have spent WAY more money in the defensive free agent market than we have. Does that not qualify as help? I mean, again, it seems like you're more concerned about the draft than you are with the product.



So current events don't count, right? Guys are not allowed to learn, grow and improve and if they do it is to be assumed that it's all imaginary or it's because of a few first day draft picks. Got it.

Current events DO count, they just don't override a career of inadequacy. This year's Joe Barry offense is the functional equivalent of Flacco in the playoffs during the Raven Super Bowl run, and the Ravens certainly regretted extending Flacco after that.

As for my evidence about the help Barry is getting...the defense in 2023 was intended to start SEVEN first round picks on defense with Van Ness an 8th first rounder intended to play a big role (those seven are Kenny Clark, Jaire Alexander, Rashan Gary, Darnell Savage, Eric Stokes, Quay Walker, and Devonte Wyatt). That's the most in the NFL. Is that objective enough?

 

[Pkrjones]

Current events DO count, they just don't override a career of inadequacy. This year's Joe Barry offense is the functional equivalent of Flacco in the playoffs during the Raven Super Bowl run, and the Ravens certainly regretted extending Flacco after that.

As for my evidence about the help Barry is getting...the defense in 2023 was intended to start SEVEN first round picks on defense with Van Ness an 8th first rounder intended to play a big role (those seven are Kenny Clark, Jaire Alexander, Rashan Gary, Darnell Savage, Eric Stokes, Quay Walker, and Devonte Wyatt). That's the most in the NFL. Is that objective enough?

Fyi, while there are the 7 1st rounders that you mention, they haven't been on the field very much. Stokes has played 0 games in '23. Alexander & Savage played in 5 each, so far. Walker has played 10. Would be great if all were on the field the entire season, but for 2 games in early Nov. only 3 of 7 were. Barry's D has kept the team together with FA fill-ins at DB (Ballentine, Rochelle, Johnson)... can't ask for much more, imho.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Fyi, while there are the 7 1st rounders that you mention, they haven't been on the field very much. Stokes has played 0 games in '23. Alexander & Savage played in 5 each, so far. Walker has played 10. Would be great if all were on the field the entire season, but for 2 games in early Nov. only 3 of 7 were. Barry's D has kept the team together with FA fill-ins at DB (Ballentine, Rochelle, Johnson)... can't ask for much more, imho.

Okay, my point was the he’s been given those first rounders. Those could have been offensive players but they weren’t. Whether they’ve played or not is immaterial, it’s the amount of help Gute has given Barry.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Fyi, while there are the 7 1st rounders that you mention, they haven't been on the field very much. Stokes has played 0 games in '23. Alexander & Savage played in 5 each, so far. Walker has played 10. Would be great if all were on the field the entire season, but for 2 games in early Nov. only 3 of 7 were. Barry's D has kept the team together with FA fill-ins at DB (Ballentine, Rochelle, Johnson)... can't ask for much more, imho.

Shhh... that doesn't fit the narrative. Joe Barry CANNOT EVER be given credit for ANYTHING good.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Okay, my point was the he’s been given those first rounders. Those could have been offensive players but they weren’t. Whether they’ve played or not is immaterial, it’s the amount of help Gute has given Barry.

Again, you ignore the fact that there are a lot of teams who have spent a lot more money in the defensive free agent market. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that that doesn't constitute help. You also ignored the fact that we lost a lot of defensive free agents due to massive cash being tied up on the offensive side of the ball.

But whatever.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Again, you ignore the fact that there are a lot of teams who have spent a lot more money in the defensive free agent market. I'm not sure why you continue to insist that that doesn't constitute help. You also ignored the fact that we lost a lot of defensive free agents due to massive cash being tied up on the offensive side of the ball.

But whatever.

The Packers have a finite number of draft picks, correct? Those finite resources, especially the high draft picks, have been used predominantly on defense. Other teams in the league also have finite draft resources which they use on whichever side of the ball they want. The Packers have focused on defense in the first two rounds more than any other team in the NFL. Why do you keep bringing up free agents when I'm talking about draft picks?

Interesting that you bring up free agents but then don't actually discuss them? Is it because the biggest free agent acquisition from Gute on offense was, who, Jimmy Graham? Billy Turner? (The answer is probably Marcedes Lewis). While on defense, Gute has signed Amos, Za'Darius Smith, and Preston Smith. Huh, seems comparable.

 

[BrokenArrow]

The Packers have a finite number of draft picks, correct? Those finite resources, especially the high draft picks, have been used predominantly on defense.

Yes, because that's where the greatest need has consistently been due to attrition.

Other teams in the league also have finite draft resources which they use on whichever side of the ball they want. The Packers have focused on defense in the first two rounds more than any other team in the NFL. Why do you keep bringing up free agents when I'm talking about draft picks?

Because YOU made the claim the Barry (who has only been here 3 years, BTW) has been helped more than any other GM in the league. I bring up free agents because that also qualifies as "help." Does it not?

Interesting that you bring up free agents but then don't actually discuss them? Is it because the biggest free agent acquisition from Gute on offense was, who, Jimmy Graham? Billy Turner? (The answer is probably Marcedes Lewis). While on defense, Gute has signed Amos, Za'Darius Smith, and Preston Smith. Huh, seems comparable.

None of those guys were top dollar free agents. He got the Smith Brothers at bargain prices. Same for Amos. BTW, that was 5 years ago, long before Barry arrived. And your narrative that the offense has been sacrificed holds no water given their steady improvement and rapid maturation at the skill positions. I find it comical that someone would be SO much more concerned with WHERE a player was drafted over what that player does AFTER the draft and the real work begins. I've seen a LOT of first round busts and a LOT of late round (or RFA) greats over the years. I swear, the Packers could win another Lombardi and you'd still be too busy moaning about how many defesive players we've drafted to notice.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Yes, because that's where the greatest need has consistently been due to attrition.



Because YOU made the claim the Barry (who has only been here 3 years, BTW) has been helped more than any other GM in the league. I bring up free agents because that also qualifies as "help." Does it not?


None of those guys were top dollar free agents. He got the Smith Brothers at bargain prices. Same for Amos. BTW, that was 5 years ago, long before Barry arrived. And your narrative that the offense has been sacrificed holds no water given their steady improvement and rapid maturation at the skill positions. I find it comical that someone would be SO much more concerned with WHERE a player was drafted over what that player does AFTER the draft and the real work begins. I've seen a LOT of first round busts and a LOT of late round (or RFA) greats over the years. I swear, the Packers could win another Lombardi and you'd still be too busy moaning about how many defesive players we've drafted to notice.

I’ve explained my point numerous times and in various ways and can’t seem to find a way to get it across Joe Barry has received more help than the offense (by far) and that he’s received more help from the front office than any other DC in the league. At this point i can only assume you’re a relative of Joe Barry. Enjoy you’re inheritance.

 

[BrokenArrow]

I’ve explained my point numerous times and in various ways and can’t seem to find a way to get it across Joe Barry has received more help than the offense (by far) and that he’s received more help from the front office than any other DC in the league.

It might help if your "point" was based in reality.

At this point i can only assume you’re a relative of Joe Barry. Enjoy you’re inheritance.

LOL. I'd say don't be a dufus but you're just so damn good at it.

 

[Firethorn1001]

I think the 'Joe Barry getting help' is more a function of how the Packers traditionally draft.

They love their OL in rds 3-5
They love their WRs in rd 2+
They love their late round athletes

NFL generally has been moving away from RBs in rd 1 and TEs in rd 1 have never really been a thing so, that leaves the entirety of the defense to be drafted in RD1.

Just what they do.

I'm not a huge Joe Barry fan myself. I just don't like constant bend but don't break defenses because I think it narrows the amounts of possessions you ultimately give the offense and also stresses the offense to have to perform at a high level knowing they will get fewer possessions. Based on this season though there is a near zero percent chance he is fired. I guess if the team makes the playoffs and the D is massively lit up in the playoffs maybe that might do it.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It might help if your "point" was based in reality.


LOL. I'd say don't be a dufus but you're just so damn good at it.

Quick, defend Joe Barry last night! I'm a dufus and obviously I need your particular variety of nepotistic genius to explain the big brain decisions behind Joe Barry playing prevent defense with a one point lead.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Quick, defend Joe Barry last night! I'm a dufus and obviously I need your particular variety of nepotistic genius to explain the big brain decisions behind Joe Barry playing prevent defense with a one point lead.

His defense did not play well last night. Not sure you know what "nepotism" means though. Also pretty sure you don't know what a prevent defense is. It's when you rush 3 and sit everyone else back in a deep zone. They didn't do that last night. And I haven't been defending Barry. If MLF fires him, fine by me. I've been pushing back at your asinine criticism of Gutekunst that you've by some twist of logic tried to tie to Barry.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

His defense did not play well last night. Not sure you know what "nepotism" means though. Also pretty sure you don't know what a prevent defense is. It's when you rush 3 and sit everyone else back in a deep zone. They didn't do that last night. And I haven't been defending Barry. If MLF fires him, fine by me. I've been pushing back at your asinine criticism of Gutekunst that you've by some twist of logic tried to tie to Barry.

I've literally never criticized Gute during this conversation. I've simply pointed out how much help Gute has had to provide to Barry for him to finally field a decent defense (implicitly criticizing the heck out of Barry).

I would love, LOVE for you to reach out to Benkert who specifically addressed Barry's style of defense at the end of the game.

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[adambr2]

Absolutely inconceivable to not blitz Devito all night. A young inexperienced QB who struggles against the blitz. I would say a fireable offense, but Barry has completely redefined the term.

Also, that last drive. There was 1:30 left and the Giants still had 2 timeouts and needed about 40 yards to get in FG range.

Yet we played a soft shell and gave up everything underneath. Does he not know how easy it is to go 40 yards in 1:30 in the modern NFL if an opposing offense is allowed to just take what they're given underneath?

Matt Lafleur, who in a vacuum is a good HC, throws that out the window the last few years by his unexplainable love for this man.

 

[BrokenArrow]

I've literally never criticized Gute during this conversation. I've simply pointed out how much help Gute has had to provide to Barry for him to finally field a decent defense (implicitly criticizing the heck out of Barry).

You very specifically criticized Gute for supposedly "sacrificing the offense."

 

[Pkrjones]

Quick, defend Joe Barry last night! I'm a dufus and obviously I need your particular variety of nepotistic genius to explain the big brain decisions behind Joe Barry playing prevent defense with a one point lead.

Can't do it. There's no explanation for the DB's playing SO soft that the pass rush meant nothing while Devito hit multiple 8-10 yd plays to easily march into FG range with 40 seconds left. Inexcusable. Had DB's played tighter maybe the rush might have played a factor...but JB removed any chance of that.

 

[gopkrs]

His defense did not play well last night. Not sure you know what "nepotism" means though. Also pretty sure you don't know what a prevent defense is. It's when you rush 3 and sit everyone else back in a deep zone. They didn't do that last night. And I haven't been defending Barry. If MLF fires him, fine by me. I've been pushing back at your asinine criticism of Gutekunst that you've by some twist of logic tried to tie to Barry.

A prevent defense is not defined by a 3 man rush. A deep zone is part of it. All you have to do is play way back on the receivers and start backpedaling at the snap. With the inside linebackers keeping everything in front of them...including wide open receivers.

 

[BrokenArrow]

A prevent defense is not defined by a 3 man rush. A deep zone is part of it. All you have to do is play way back on the receivers and start backpedaling at the snap. With the inside linebackers keeping everything in front of them...including wide open receivers.

Sure, but I didn't feel like writing a whole paragraph about it. I simply provided the most common iteration, perhaps "defined by" wasn't the best choice of words. Either way, we weren't in a prevent defense on the last drive.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Can't do it. There's no explanation for the DB's playing SO soft that the pass rush meant nothing while Devito hit multiple 8-10 yd plays to easily march into FG range with 40 seconds left. Inexcusable. Had DB's played tighter maybe the rush might have played a factor...but JB removed any chance of that.

Defense shouldn't have been in that position to begin with. Should have used more clock after our last first down before scoring. Run was working and Giants were looking tired up front. Hell, 4 runs might have gotten the TD. THey would have gotten the ball back with no timeouts and maybe 35 seconds left. Should have at least run the ball on 1st, 2nd and 3rd down and then maybe dial up a TD pass to Heath if needed.