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Are we really equipped to run a dominant 3-4?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Southpaw, Jan 31, 2012.

  1. 13 Times Champs
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    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Hawk does suck.
  2. AaronShockley
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    AaronShockley Cheesehead

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    We aren't well equipped to run the 3-4, but as it's been said, we are further from running the 4-3, and the 4-3 will die in the next 5 years anyways. The Giants can run it because they not only have 4, but 6 guys who can get at the QB as well as our entire defense.

    Matthews had an "off" year, but that was 100% because there was nobody else to block for opposing offensive linemen. We need to "stretch" offensive lineman, and make teams use RB and TE to block, or at least chip block the pass rush. This takes pressure off the secondary to play straight man in the back end with no safety help.

    Our current problem is this. There are 11 players on defense, for the Packers to get a legitimate rush on the QB we needed to bring 6-7 players(which still worked sparingly) leaving 4-5 for other tasks. You leave the linebackers to rb and te, and the CB's to cover the WR, one safety over top. Well, when we face teams that have an elite QB, or multiple WR targets than can make people miss, we were in a world of hurt.

    We need to add pass rush, and a secondary player in this years draft. It won't fix it for this year, but we can at least look towards the future with it. A DE to play opposite of Matthews would be a great late Christmas present. Then adding a strong CB or an aggressive Safety to help lead the aggressive style defense, and I truly believe we go from last to top 10 in pass defense, with two players.

    For instance, you add (I hate this guy) Jared Allen and even a young guy like Eric Berry to the Packers defense, and we would murder instantly.
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  3. Croak
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    Croak Cheesehead

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    Folks, the Packers are only 7 Million under the salary cap. Don't get your hopes set on bringing in a veteran free agent. The Packers have to sign Wells and consider Finley. Flynn will probably go. I have a strong feeling we're going to see more draft, develop, and work with what is already on the roster.
  4. ExpatPacker
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    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    The problem is we need an OLB, a DE and a CB or safety just as bad. If an ILB is the best defensive player on the board when our turn comes around, then hey, go for it, but there's a lot of good OLBs and CBs in this year's draft too. And Mark Barron, the best SS by far, might also be there at #28.
  5. mradtke66
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    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Which is why I'm quite sure Driver is going to be released. Before Sherrod got hurt, I'd say that Clifton would gone for sure. The cap is a harsh mistress, especially to aging players who are well paid.
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  6. ExpatPacker
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    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    I think Clifton will be gone for sure despite Sherrod. Clifton is due to make over $5 million. They can't keep him for that kind of money.

    Marshall Newhouse will be our starting LT next year while Sherrod is worked gradually back in. Pretty much what it looks like.
  7. NelsonsLongCatch
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    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    That is true, but the Packers can gain significant cap space by releasing Clifton and Driver. You throw Ryan Grant into that equation and all of a sudden the cap space is there.
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  8. El Guapo
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    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Clifton isn't a security blanket anymore. They will cut Clifton and I'm not even sure that they would try to resign him at the veteran minimum. His health just doesn't warrant a roster spot anymore.

    Whoever mentioned cap space was right on. You can hate Hawk all that you want, but we made our bed when we gave him the contract. Cutting him now just burdens the cap. Sometimes you've got to work with what you've got. Hawk was a big part of our SB run in 2010 and can be utilized better as well. It's the defensive coordinator who develops the schemes that put a guy like Hawk into coverage. Stop that.
  9. NelsonsLongCatch
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    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    The problem with the Packers 3-4 scheme is this:

    The 3-4 is built around the idea that the offense will have to guess who the fourth pass rusher will be on every play. By not having a pass rusher opposite Clay Matthews, the offense always knows who the fourth pass rusher is. Take the Steelers 3-4. By having Woodley and Harrison, the defense needs to account for both players on each pass play. The offense cannot just slide protection or move a tight end to one side because that linebacker might not be rushing the passer. This is why Matthews was double and triple teamed all season.
  10. 13 Times Champs
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    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    True but a DE/DT that can occupy 2 players in his own right would have negated some of that double teaming of Matthews.
  11. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    That's why on another thread in answer to the question do you favor a stud OLB or DE (if you could only get one) I favored OLB. In Capers' D IMO OLBs are more important than DL. They are able to make plays vs. the run, pressuring the passer and in coverage where a DL oridnarily only can make plays in two of those three. Yes, a stud DE takes some pressure off of the coverage unit but IMO two stud OLBs would be huge next season.
  12. 7thFloorRA
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    There are still a lot of things that need to be cleaned up other than getting a replacement for Jenkins and getting Collins back or Collins 2.0 in the draft.

    Zombo is bad, Walden is bad, Hawk is bad, Wilson is bad, Neal is hurt and unimpressive thus far. Picket looks lazy a lot of the time. Bishop is good but he absolutely needs to have a more athletic guy in Hawks spot. You can not have 2 lead weights out there especially when one of them can't cover or tackle. Bishop is good on the blitz but you can not send him when it means leaving Hawk to cover the middle. Tramon and Shields need to get better as well. They must be forced to understand that they are not supposed to play center field and sit back on every route waiting to pick a bad throw because then they get torched on every good throw. They were all greedy for picks this year.

    I would try like hell to trade Hawk to Cleveland where could be one of the local heros and faces of their franchise. The defensive backs need to rededicate themselves and stop trophy hunting for picks. Picket needs to light a fire under his *** and play hard every play all the way through the end of the play. Its hard to generate a pass rush when you just stand there.

    Capers also needs to spread things out some and do some delayed blitzes vs the same old. It seems like whenever he blitzed someone other than Clay they just ran into the line and made a big pile and accomplished nothing. Spread the blockers out and delay Bishop or DJ.

    There is a lot of work to be done other than just personnel moves. I hope each and every guy on that defense and defensive staff watches some San Fran game film to see how a defense plays fast, hard, smart and is technically sound.
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  13. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Good point. A pay site notes that Clifton's cap figure of $5.703M and Driver's $5M would be completely off the books (no prorated signing bonus). Collins has a cap figure of $5.05M for 2012 but if he can't play, and we will know in March one way or another, about $2M of his signing bonus would be prorated into the 2012 cap. Like all Packers fans I hope Collins' dings the cap for $5.05M - he's worth more than that. But if Clifton and Driver aren't re-signed, that's a cool $10.7M off the cap.

    A point about the new CBA we didn't spend a lot of time on when it was agreed upon is the cap is relatively flat for the 2012 season. That will impact every team…
  14. 13 Times Champs
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    Well I'd be happy with either but where we're picking I don't see us getting a stud DE or OLB unless Thompson does something to move up in the draft.
  15. Croak
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    I agree. And I also think a lot of folks are gonna be disappointed when Thompson doesn't do something to move up in the draft.
  16. realcaliforniacheese
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    realcaliforniacheese A-Rods Boss

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    We are going to have alot of draft picks this year. Depending on how his board looks, if he sees alot of talent that should be available in round 4 (if we do end up with a couple of extra 4th rounders),he may give up a 2nd or 3rd to move up and grab an impact player. Course none of us knows the mind of the master.
  17. 13 Times Champs
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    The problem is when you get into the third and fourth round you are probably looking down the road for these guys to become a factor. Most often they need time to develop. That's ok but I think we need a guy or guys that can come in immediately and make a difference.

    And Croak, you are probably right.
  18. NelsonsLongCatch
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    That would be great. Create a threat opposite of Matthews and teams can't roll protection to his side.
  19. ExpatPacker
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    If he doesn't and the Packers do not manage to pick up a top pass rusher or DB in the draft, there's gonna be a lot of unhappy Packers fans out there who will probably let him know about it.
  20. ThxJackVainisi
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    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    At this point even the master doesn't know what he'll do in the draft. Clay was picked at the 26th spot so I don't think it's a given a difference maker on D can't be had at 28. IOW, Thompson may not have to trade up to nab one. Most of us probably would like to see the first 3 or 4 picks be on the defensive side of the ball, but that's not the way Thompson works the draft. So I just hope we see an unexpected run on offensive players in the first round so the player(s) at the top of his board plays defense. The biggest off season "move" could very well be Collins coming back. That would be a HUGE (and for me a somewhat surprising) addition to the defense.
  21. mradtke66
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    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Especially that. In our 3-4, we don't have d-ends in the Osi or Tuck mold. While pass rush from our linemen is nice, it isn't really in the job requirement list. They need to be big and strong for running defense. I believe the ideal end in the 3-4 is about 6-5" to get into passing lanes and 300 pounds to hold up in the run game.

    What 3-4 teams call 'ends' have much more in common with 4-3 teams' 3-technique defensive tackles. Except in the 4-3, that position is more of playmaker position. 3-4 ends are 'just guys.'

    Now, when we kick into our nickel, it changes completely, more so because of how much time we spend in nickel. In run-down nickel, we're okay with Pickett, Raji, and Matthews. A second, viable outside linebacker would make this set great.

    Pass-down nickel, we could use a second interior rusher AND that viable OLB.

    The problem is that there aren't a lot of good pass rushing 3-techniques, which is what our ends become in nickel. Those that do exist tend to be shorter, so we'd be compromising on height. Plus we'd likely have to draft high to get them. And then they might only be part-time players--too short or not stout enough on running downs.

    TL, DR: I assert that the second pass rushing linebacker is more important than DL help.
  22. 13 Times Champs
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    All drafts are different. Most mock drafts I've seen show a run on the good 3-4 rush linebackers and DT'/DE's well before we pick at 28. I don't believe Thompson can afford to take the risk of a player he desperately needs being there at 28 ...but he probably will.
  23. 7thFloorRA
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    hmmmmm. Pass rushing 3 technique for the nickel package you say? I can't really stand the guy but Tommie Harris is out there, dirt cheap and I even think he sacked Rodgers once or twice in SD this year. When he is healthy and focused he can generate pressure.
  24. AaronShockley
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    You do realize that not only did Grant rework his deal and only made 1 Million last year, that he outplayed his contract at the end of this year. Forget the Giants game, if we bring that into play we should drop everybody. Grant should be the main back again, the more carries he had, the better he was. Starks looked soft after about the 3rd week even though he was given all the backing he could have ever wanted. Grant against all odds, and against the coaching staff not giving him his due practice and play, outperformed.
  25. NelsonsLongCatch
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    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    Are we talking about the same Ryan Grant? The guy who missed the entire 2010 season with an ankle injury then followed with a 559 yard season... The guy who scored twice last year... The guy who had two rushes for greater than 20 yards (Starks had 5).

    I fail to see where he "outplayed his contract".

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