Where are all the Finley critics now ?

ivo610

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The same place the James Jones critics are ?

Couple things,

First, in order to have any legit cred with a thread like this you have to actually fully back the player before, and frankly, I have never seen you post before, so .. Who are you?

Second, it's already been covered but one game doesn't make a player. If he had an entire season where he played well and kept his mouth shut the thread might be valid. I was the biggest Crosby hater but I won't use this game to hang him out to dry again.

Third, I been busy since you asked. Really not worth getting into but yeah, a couple mods on vouch I have been busy the past couple days
 

Oshkoshpackfan

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As small of a game as 3 catchs was, I hope this boosted his morale and gave him some mojo back. We can't even start a thread about how he is back or how anyone can't still hate on the guy, it was one small 3 reception game. Give him 6+ catches against the NYG and be a top performer and I will stop bust'n his balls, till them.....nope
 

SpartaChris

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Driver had 8 drops on 45 catchable balls last season according to Pro Football Focus, for a 17.8% drop rate, 6th. worse in the league, much worse than Finley this season. But since Driver didn't run his mouth and throw his quarterback under the bus, he didn't draw a fraction of the abuse Finley has drawn this season over drops.

There, fixed that for ya.
 

longtimefan

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I've read other sources that have Nelson with one more drop, I just can't find them at the moment. STATS Inc. tends to grade easier than other sources, such as Pro Football Focus. Drops are not an official stat; everybody has their own subjective method of doing it.

Regardless, the point was not to analyze who among Driver, Nelson and Finley have been the better receiver this season, or the last 3 seasons (though clearly Driver comes up short, and not just because of drops). The point is that the overwhelming criticism of Finley is not borne out by the stats; the criticism is largely colored by his personality.

By your own stats, 64% for Finley means he sucks; 68% for Nelson makes him a cherished member of the team. Once again, the gap is not justified.

All I'm trying to say is that if you leave aside for the moment Finley's mouth and salary, he doesn't actually suck, or shall we say his sucking has been exaggerated.

And so far as Driver is concerned, I see no problem or inconsistency in saying he had a number of great years with the Packers followed by 3 sucking years. It is OK to say both if it happens to be true.

Maybe Finley should go get himself diagnosed with bi-polar or some other manic disorder, which certainly would not be a stretch. Then his jibber-jabber might be less offensive and the sucking quotient would go down.

You started the Jordy comparison, I never said Jordy is cherished..

I showed that Finley doesnt catch as often as Jordy, and Jordy has had more targets to him... So even if he had one more drop, he had more chances to drop one more pass..

Let's say Fin never speaks...Does he still suck? Yuppers...

Just as I said
How about Mason? Is he sucking right now?
Mason doesnt spew crap, and I said he still sucks...

For me, Fin sucks no matter if he opens his mouth or not..But HE DOES need to zip his lip...He did same his rookie year, blamed Rodgers for stuff..Then MM had a talk with him to zip it..

If he starts to play this year consistently he can spew what ever he wants to

People look at the entire picture of him..Some may use his mouth as an excuse to say he sucks, some dont...But when he can put together games where he hardly drops a pass, then people will be okay with him even if he still spews crap from his mouth
 

longtimefan

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Again, you missed the point. Saying that the criticism is overstated is hardly a defense, more like damning with faint praise.

To the point, notice how you followed "sucks right now" immediately with "zip his lip"?

The point happens to be that the suckyness of his play has been overstated because of his lip.

The longest threads on this forum have been of the Finley variety, predominated by "cut him" comments. It's all too black and white.

Didn't miss your point at all

Your looking for something that isnt there...Opening his mouth doesnt make him drop more, it is just his entire game from the field to press..

#1--People hear him say stupid stuff, and that makes fans upset...
#2--He follows that up by dropping passes..
#3--That makes fans really ticked at him

Not sure how it can't be explained any better
 
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I don't think any Packer receiver is going to get a huge amount of targets, but you still need them. Myself I would like to see the ball in Cobb's hands as often as possible, receiving, returns and even rushing.
 

rodell330

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lol he had one good game. Jones has been consistent at least...the verdict is still out on Finley so let's calm down.
 
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HardRightEdge. You are right. Finley keeping his mouth shut would make it much easier to over look his dropped balls. Maybe thats why Nelson and Driver were not beat up over it. It's a team game. He needs to have some humble pie, shut his mouth and let his play do the talking.
 

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Still here. First touchdown since week one and he's off the hook? I'm happy he contributed but it's not an excuse for how his mouth has produced more than his hands.
 

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I'm not firmly on either side of this argument, but looked at the statistics and did some crunching of my own to make an informed analysis. For comparison, I looked at the other elite tight ends in the league of Gronkowski, Hernandez (injured in 2012), and Jimmy Graham. Maybe there are others that should be used for comps, so I'll let someone argue that point if desired. For Finley, I looked at 2009-2012 since he really didn't "emerge" until the 2009 season. Here is what I've found:

- Finley's receptions per target (otherwise known as drop rate) has been dropping the past two seasons. The elite tight ends seem to average 65-75% each season. Finley was phenominal in 2009 and his shorten 2010 season, averaging 77% and 81% respectively. However, he was only 59% last year which would be below average but back up to 64% this year. 64% gets him back to the low end of the elite TE average, but is below the precedent that he set in 2009 and 2010. It's not a giant concern except for that it's trending on the low end lately.

- Yards per catch are way down in 2012. Finley averaged 12.3, 14.3, and 13.9 yards per catch from 2009-11 but only 10.5 yards per catch in 2012. That speaks a bit to production that he's flirting with single digit numbers this season.

- For the next several stats, it should be noted that Finley does play with some elite receivers so he's got competition for the ball. Knowing that, he gets targeted 3 fewer times per game on average and general has 2 less receptions per game than his elite counterparts. That all said, he only has half of the total yards in 2012 that Gronkowski and Jimmy Graham have thus far: 337 yards for Finley versus 562 for Graham and 748 for Gronkowski.

- Finley has only caught two TDs this season, one last week against the Lions and one in Week 1 against the 49ers. Gronkowski and Graham have caught 10TDs and 8TDs respectively compared to Finley's 2TDs. Again, it's hard to draw a conclusion due to competition for passes in the Packers offense, but Finley had 5TDs in 2009, 1 in his shortened 2010 season, and 8TDs last year.

- The good news is that Finley doesn't seem to fumble much. In fact, he has only fumbled twice in the past four seasons while his elite brethren average 1 fumble per season. He holds onto the ball quite well, which probably can be attributed to his size, strength, and big hands.

- The most perplexing stat that I found is regarding first downs. Finley averaged 2.2 first downs per game in 2009, 2.4 in 2010, 2.8 in 2011, but only 1.7 in 2012. While it's encouraging to see his numbers trending up the past several seasons, one could chalk up his low 2012 average as an anomaly. However, when compared to his elite counterparts, Finley is either not the go-to guy for first downs or not able to produce them. Either scenario is the opposite of what you'd expect for your starting TE. His elite counterparts have averaged 4.1 to 4.2 First Downs per game while Finley is firmly in the low 2 per game. That's double the first down production of Finley.

My analysis seems to show that Finley's drops aren't necessarily the issue people should focus on, but his yards, TDs, and 1st down production. Those defending Finley can certainly point to his drop ratio, his fumble ratio, and even his average long, which is commensurate with other elite TEs. No matter what, Finley's production is down in 2012 when his competition in the Packers offense has been injury-plagued. He should be making his name instead of being discussed in the manner that we are in this thread.
 

longtimefan

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My analysis seems to show that Finley's drops aren't necessarily the issue people should focus on, but his yards, TDs, and 1st down production. Those defending Finley can certainly point to his drop ratio, his fumble ratio, and even his average long, which is commensurate with other elite TEs. No matter what, Finley's production is down in 2012 when his competition in the Packers offense has been injury-plagued. He should be making his name instead of being discussed in the manner that we are in this thread.

If he didnt have those drops, maybe his production #s you came up with, actually get better?
 

El Guapo

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One should be clear that Targeted vs Receptions percentage does not necessarily equal drops. I should dig around the internet to find someone who has actually counted the drops each season
 

13 Times Champs

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Again, you missed the point. Saying that the criticism is overstated is hardly a defense, more like damning with faint praise.

To the point, notice how you followed "sucks right now" immediately with "zip his lip"?

The point happens to be that the suckyness of his play has been overstated because of his lip.

The longest threads on this forum have been of the Finley variety, predominated by "cut him" comments. It's all too black and white.

I absolutely agree that his lip is as big or maybe even a bigger factor in the dislike for him as his drops. The guy has the talent to be unstoppable. I think he will eventually clean up the drop thing but like Crosby the clock is ticking on him. It's a game where what have you done for me lately is what matters.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I'm not firmly on either side of this argument, but looked at the statistics and did some crunching of my own to make an informed analysis. For comparison, I looked at the other elite tight ends in the league of Gronkowski, Hernandez (injured in 2012), and Jimmy Graham. Maybe there are others that should be used for comps, so I'll let someone argue that point if desired. For Finley, I looked at 2009-2012 since he really didn't "emerge" until the 2009 season. Here is what I've found:

- Finley's receptions per target (otherwise known as drop rate) has been dropping the past two seasons. The elite tight ends seem to average 65-75% each season. Finley was phenominal in 2009 and his shorten 2010 season, averaging 77% and 81% respectively. However, he was only 59% last year which would be below average but back up to 64% this year. 64% gets him back to the low end of the elite TE average, but is below the precedent that he set in 2009 and 2010. It's not a giant concern except for that it's trending on the low end lately.

- Yards per catch are way down in 2012. Finley averaged 12.3, 14.3, and 13.9 yards per catch from 2009-11 but only 10.5 yards per catch in 2012. That speaks a bit to production that he's flirting with single digit numbers this season.

- For the next several stats, it should be noted that Finley does play with some elite receivers so he's got competition for the ball. Knowing that, he gets targeted 3 fewer times per game on average and general has 2 less receptions per game than his elite counterparts. That all said, he only has half of the total yards in 2012 that Gronkowski and Jimmy Graham have thus far: 337 yards for Finley versus 562 for Graham and 748 for Gronkowski.

- Finley has only caught two TDs this season, one last week against the Lions and one in Week 1 against the 49ers. Gronkowski and Graham have caught 10TDs and 8TDs respectively compared to Finley's 2TDs. Again, it's hard to draw a conclusion due to competition for passes in the Packers offense, but Finley had 5TDs in 2009, 1 in his shortened 2010 season, and 8TDs last year.

- The good news is that Finley doesn't seem to fumble much. In fact, he has only fumbled twice in the past four seasons while his elite brethren average 1 fumble per season. He holds onto the ball quite well, which probably can be attributed to his size, strength, and big hands.

- The most perplexing stat that I found is regarding first downs. Finley averaged 2.2 first downs per game in 2009, 2.4 in 2010, 2.8 in 2011, but only 1.7 in 2012. While it's encouraging to see his numbers trending up the past several seasons, one could chalk up his low 2012 average as an anomaly. However, when compared to his elite counterparts, Finley is either not the go-to guy for first downs or not able to produce them. Either scenario is the opposite of what you'd expect for your starting TE. His elite counterparts have averaged 4.1 to 4.2 First Downs per game while Finley is firmly in the low 2 per game. That's double the first down production of Finley.

My analysis seems to show that Finley's drops aren't necessarily the issue people should focus on, but his yards, TDs, and 1st down production. Those defending Finley can certainly point to his drop ratio, his fumble ratio, and even his average long, which is commensurate with other elite TEs. No matter what, Finley's production is down in 2012 when his competition in the Packers offense has been injury-plagued. He should be making his name instead of being discussed in the manner that we are in this thread.

That was a good post...I think you accurately navigated the middle ground between "he's good" and "he sucks". I would not have thought that middle ground would need to be such a nuanced thing, but it is what it is.

I would point out that the low yards per catch and TDs are an opportunity issue. It's apparent that we've gone to Finley a lot less down the field and in the red zone than in previous seasons. He's getting a healthy dose of hot reads, check downs, run substitution routes. He's lower in the progression, or not in it at all. The offense has been retooled such that Finley is not a featured weapon; Cobb out of the slot has taken his place.

In fact, on his TD against DET, he wasn't even in the progression. From D'Amato:

"With the Packers trailing, 3-0, early in the second quarter, Rodgers looked off a screen pass to his right when the Lions' defense flowed that way and spotted Finley wide open as he crossed the field from right to left.

"It's crazy because I've been running that route for five years, since I've been here, and never got the ball," Finley said. "That play, I didn't expect to get the ball again. It surprised me. I was bracing for the hit and it was wide open."

"Finley nearly tripped but regained his balance and rumbled into the end zone for his first touchdown since Sept. 9."

"I give Jermichael a lot of credit on the touchdown catch," Rodgers said. "It's a play we haven't run in a while, probably weeks. I haven't hit him on that in probably a year, even counting practice. So for him to be awake on that play and understand although he's kind of not in the progression, if things happen a certain way he could get it."

Does Finley "suck"? No, he does not. Should he be paid $7.5 mil if he's not an integral part of the offense? No, he should not.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Can you imagine if Hornung had a Twitter account back in the day?

Funny, just a few minutes ago I was thinking of Hornung and McGee, and Lombardi's high tolerance for those guys. Sure, you don't want to load up your team with wildcards and knuckleheads else you start looking like Dallas or Detroit. But you should have enough tolerance to handle a few.
 

ivo610

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Funny, just a few minutes ago I was thinking of Hornung and McGee, and Lombardi's high tolerance for those guys. Sure, you don't want to load up your team with wildcards and knuckleheads else you start looking like Dallas or Detroit. But you should have enough tolerance to handle a few.

The tolerance goes as far as the talent.
 
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HardRightEdge

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The tolerance goes as far as the talent.
Well, when management hands a guy $15 mil for 2 years, with the personality issues already on the table, they think he has talent. Given what was known when they handed him that contract, the tolerance should come with it.

And, to a large degree, it has. Just not from the fans.
 

longtimefan

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A player cant "suck" in an off year if he played good in the past?

It appears that HardRightEdge is saying that?

Can a player suck for one game? A stretch of games?

What if he did really well in 2010 and was hurt all last year, now this year is peforming below his average of what ever it is his average is..Can he suck then?
 

JBlood

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I'll bet Finley would blame the waitress if he dropped his fork in a restaurant.
 

rodell330

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For you Finley nut-huggers, it's crap like this that turn folks like me against him:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...y-be-trying-to-talk-his-way-out-of-titletown/

Regardless of when the comments were made (These happened to be made before last weeks game,) he just needs to **** and play ball.


tisk tisk tisk....he is sooooo imature it's sad. He obviously likes the attention, and it's obvious he's a diva. If he shut up and caught the ball he would be beloved by Packer fans......yet even when he has a great game ppl still dislike him because of his mouth. I honestly could tolerate the drops if he was a laid back quiet guy and only had positive thing's to say. He's the complete opposite which is why so many ppl don't give him the benefit of the doubt.

You have the best qb in football throwing you the ball and winning games.. yet Finley is the type that would rather have 8 catches and two touchdowns and get beat as long as he gets his numbers. We know you are talented knucklehead! that's why you got drafted! so we don't need to keep hearing how talented you are. #12 is going to throw the ball to the open man that's just the way it is. If Cobb is geting the balls you used to get it's because Cobb is open...you know what else? Cobb is talented to bro.

This is why i could never be a GM smh, because at the end of the season i'd be calling the Patsies to see what i could offer for the services of Aaron hernandez and Finley would be on his way out. Hear you have a guy with the same talent level and lees of a drama queen. Win win for the Packers.
 

ivo610

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You know it's a joke when your statement game is 3 catches for 1 TD

Clearly he enjoys his numbers more than winning. Hope that suits him well in Kansas City or Oakland.
 

JBlood

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Finley's a dunce. He fits in with the other wide receivers who see themselves as the center of the universe.
 

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