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Where are all the Finley critics now ?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by NJPackfan., Nov 19, 2012.

  1. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Couple things,

    First, in order to have any legit cred with a thread like this you have to actually fully back the player before, and frankly, I have never seen you post before, so .. Who are you?

    Second, it's already been covered but one game doesn't make a player. If he had an entire season where he played well and kept his mouth shut the thread might be valid. I was the biggest Crosby hater but I won't use this game to hang him out to dry again.

    Third, I been busy since you asked. Really not worth getting into but yeah, a couple mods on vouch I have been busy the past couple days
     
  2. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    As small of a game as 3 catchs was, I hope this boosted his morale and gave him some mojo back. We can't even start a thread about how he is back or how anyone can't still hate on the guy, it was one small 3 reception game. Give him 6+ catches against the NYG and be a top performer and I will stop bust'n his balls, till them.....nope
     
  3. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    There, fixed that for ya.
     
  4. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    You started the Jordy comparison, I never said Jordy is cherished..

    I showed that Finley doesnt catch as often as Jordy, and Jordy has had more targets to him... So even if he had one more drop, he had more chances to drop one more pass..

    Let's say Fin never speaks...Does he still suck? Yuppers...

    Just as I said
    Mason doesnt spew crap, and I said he still sucks...

    For me, Fin sucks no matter if he opens his mouth or not..But HE DOES need to zip his lip...He did same his rookie year, blamed Rodgers for stuff..Then MM had a talk with him to zip it..

    If he starts to play this year consistently he can spew what ever he wants to

    People look at the entire picture of him..Some may use his mouth as an excuse to say he sucks, some dont...But when he can put together games where he hardly drops a pass, then people will be okay with him even if he still spews crap from his mouth
     
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  5. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Didn't miss your point at all

    Your looking for something that isnt there...Opening his mouth doesnt make him drop more, it is just his entire game from the field to press..

    #1--People hear him say stupid stuff, and that makes fans upset...
    #2--He follows that up by dropping passes..
    #3--That makes fans really ticked at him

    Not sure how it can't be explained any better
     
  6. NJPackfan.

    NJPackfan. Banned Banned

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    I don't think any Packer receiver is going to get a huge amount of targets, but you still need them. Myself I would like to see the ball in Cobb's hands as often as possible, receiving, returns and even rushing.
     
  7. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    lol he had one good game. Jones has been consistent at least...the verdict is still out on Finley so let's calm down.
     
  8. Trapped In Vikingville

    Trapped In Vikingville Trapped

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    HardRightEdge. You are right. Finley keeping his mouth shut would make it much easier to over look his dropped balls. Maybe thats why Nelson and Driver were not beat up over it. It's a team game. He needs to have some humble pie, shut his mouth and let his play do the talking.
     
  9. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    There, that is actually perfectly said
     
  10. Alex

    Alex Cheesehead

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    Still here. First touchdown since week one and he's off the hook? I'm happy he contributed but it's not an excuse for how his mouth has produced more than his hands.
     
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  11. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    I'm not firmly on either side of this argument, but looked at the statistics and did some crunching of my own to make an informed analysis. For comparison, I looked at the other elite tight ends in the league of Gronkowski, Hernandez (injured in 2012), and Jimmy Graham. Maybe there are others that should be used for comps, so I'll let someone argue that point if desired. For Finley, I looked at 2009-2012 since he really didn't "emerge" until the 2009 season. Here is what I've found:

    - Finley's receptions per target (otherwise known as drop rate) has been dropping the past two seasons. The elite tight ends seem to average 65-75% each season. Finley was phenominal in 2009 and his shorten 2010 season, averaging 77% and 81% respectively. However, he was only 59% last year which would be below average but back up to 64% this year. 64% gets him back to the low end of the elite TE average, but is below the precedent that he set in 2009 and 2010. It's not a giant concern except for that it's trending on the low end lately.

    - Yards per catch are way down in 2012. Finley averaged 12.3, 14.3, and 13.9 yards per catch from 2009-11 but only 10.5 yards per catch in 2012. That speaks a bit to production that he's flirting with single digit numbers this season.

    - For the next several stats, it should be noted that Finley does play with some elite receivers so he's got competition for the ball. Knowing that, he gets targeted 3 fewer times per game on average and general has 2 less receptions per game than his elite counterparts. That all said, he only has half of the total yards in 2012 that Gronkowski and Jimmy Graham have thus far: 337 yards for Finley versus 562 for Graham and 748 for Gronkowski.

    - Finley has only caught two TDs this season, one last week against the Lions and one in Week 1 against the 49ers. Gronkowski and Graham have caught 10TDs and 8TDs respectively compared to Finley's 2TDs. Again, it's hard to draw a conclusion due to competition for passes in the Packers offense, but Finley had 5TDs in 2009, 1 in his shortened 2010 season, and 8TDs last year.

    - The good news is that Finley doesn't seem to fumble much. In fact, he has only fumbled twice in the past four seasons while his elite brethren average 1 fumble per season. He holds onto the ball quite well, which probably can be attributed to his size, strength, and big hands.

    - The most perplexing stat that I found is regarding first downs. Finley averaged 2.2 first downs per game in 2009, 2.4 in 2010, 2.8 in 2011, but only 1.7 in 2012. While it's encouraging to see his numbers trending up the past several seasons, one could chalk up his low 2012 average as an anomaly. However, when compared to his elite counterparts, Finley is either not the go-to guy for first downs or not able to produce them. Either scenario is the opposite of what you'd expect for your starting TE. His elite counterparts have averaged 4.1 to 4.2 First Downs per game while Finley is firmly in the low 2 per game. That's double the first down production of Finley.

    My analysis seems to show that Finley's drops aren't necessarily the issue people should focus on, but his yards, TDs, and 1st down production. Those defending Finley can certainly point to his drop ratio, his fumble ratio, and even his average long, which is commensurate with other elite TEs. No matter what, Finley's production is down in 2012 when his competition in the Packers offense has been injury-plagued. He should be making his name instead of being discussed in the manner that we are in this thread.
     
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  12. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    If he didnt have those drops, maybe his production #s you came up with, actually get better?
     
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  13. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    One should be clear that Targeted vs Receptions percentage does not necessarily equal drops. I should dig around the internet to find someone who has actually counted the drops each season
     
  14. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    I absolutely agree that his lip is as big or maybe even a bigger factor in the dislike for him as his drops. The guy has the talent to be unstoppable. I think he will eventually clean up the drop thing but like Crosby the clock is ticking on him. It's a game where what have you done for me lately is what matters.
     
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  15. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    That was a good post...I think you accurately navigated the middle ground between "he's good" and "he sucks". I would not have thought that middle ground would need to be such a nuanced thing, but it is what it is.

    I would point out that the low yards per catch and TDs are an opportunity issue. It's apparent that we've gone to Finley a lot less down the field and in the red zone than in previous seasons. He's getting a healthy dose of hot reads, check downs, run substitution routes. He's lower in the progression, or not in it at all. The offense has been retooled such that Finley is not a featured weapon; Cobb out of the slot has taken his place.

    In fact, on his TD against DET, he wasn't even in the progression. From D'Amato:

    "With the Packers trailing, 3-0, early in the second quarter, Rodgers looked off a screen pass to his right when the Lions' defense flowed that way and spotted Finley wide open as he crossed the field from right to left.

    "It's crazy because I've been running that route for five years, since I've been here, and never got the ball," Finley said. "That play, I didn't expect to get the ball again. It surprised me. I was bracing for the hit and it was wide open."

    "Finley nearly tripped but regained his balance and rumbled into the end zone for his first touchdown since Sept. 9."

    "I give Jermichael a lot of credit on the touchdown catch," Rodgers said. "It's a play we haven't run in a while, probably weeks. I haven't hit him on that in probably a year, even counting practice. So for him to be awake on that play and understand although he's kind of not in the progression, if things happen a certain way he could get it."

    Does Finley "suck"? No, he does not. Should he be paid $7.5 mil if he's not an integral part of the offense? No, he should not.
     
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  16. GreenBlood

    GreenBlood Banned Banned

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    Can you imagine if Hornung had a Twitter account back in the day?
     
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  17. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Funny, just a few minutes ago I was thinking of Hornung and McGee, and Lombardi's high tolerance for those guys. Sure, you don't want to load up your team with wildcards and knuckleheads else you start looking like Dallas or Detroit. But you should have enough tolerance to handle a few.
     
  18. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    The tolerance goes as far as the talent.
     
  19. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Well, when management hands a guy $15 mil for 2 years, with the personality issues already on the table, they think he has talent. Given what was known when they handed him that contract, the tolerance should come with it.

    And, to a large degree, it has. Just not from the fans.
     
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  20. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    A player cant "suck" in an off year if he played good in the past?

    It appears that HardRightEdge is saying that?

    Can a player suck for one game? A stretch of games?

    What if he did really well in 2010 and was hurt all last year, now this year is peforming below his average of what ever it is his average is..Can he suck then?
     
  21. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    I'll bet Finley would blame the waitress if he dropped his fork in a restaurant.
     
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  22. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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  23. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    tisk tisk tisk....he is sooooo imature it's sad. He obviously likes the attention, and it's obvious he's a diva. If he shut up and caught the ball he would be beloved by Packer fans......yet even when he has a great game ppl still dislike him because of his mouth. I honestly could tolerate the drops if he was a laid back quiet guy and only had positive thing's to say. He's the complete opposite which is why so many ppl don't give him the benefit of the doubt.

    You have the best qb in football throwing you the ball and winning games.. yet Finley is the type that would rather have 8 catches and two touchdowns and get beat as long as he gets his numbers. We know you are talented knucklehead! that's why you got drafted! so we don't need to keep hearing how talented you are. #12 is going to throw the ball to the open man that's just the way it is. If Cobb is geting the balls you used to get it's because Cobb is open...you know what else? Cobb is talented to bro.

    This is why i could never be a GM smh, because at the end of the season i'd be calling the Patsies to see what i could offer for the services of Aaron hernandez and Finley would be on his way out. Hear you have a guy with the same talent level and lees of a drama queen. Win win for the Packers.
     
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  24. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    You know it's a joke when your statement game is 3 catches for 1 TD

    Clearly he enjoys his numbers more than winning. Hope that suits him well in Kansas City or Oakland.
     
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  25. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Finley's a dunce. He fits in with the other wide receivers who see themselves as the center of the universe.
     

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