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When Posters Insist on Disregarding 2010 When Analyzing TT...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by BorderRivals.com, Jan 22, 2014.

  1. BorderRivals.com

    BorderRivals.com Cheesehead

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    [​IMG]
     
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  2. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    lol :D:D:tup:

    Yes, the complete lack of analytical skill from the Ted Thompson haters is nothing short of staggering.
     
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  3. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Nah...that was my reaction when i saw MD Jennings in the starting lineup, Marshall Newhouse jog into the game, Brad Jones re-signed, Scott tolzien throwing ints because we had no quality backup, and MM's playcalling.
     
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  4. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    I do a facepalm when people insist on giving TT a free pass because of a Superbowl win sandwiched by:

    1. 2009 - an embarrassingly bad defensive performance in the playoffs

    2. 2011 - an embarrassingly bad defense the entire year (record breaking bad at the time) which lead to an embarrassingly defensive effort in the playoffs

    3. 2012 - hey we beat the Joe Webb led Vikings! Massive props there! Followed by easily the most embarrassing playoff loss by the Packers.

    4. 2013 - I unlike a lot of people I am proud of the Packers this year so I have nothing negative to say about the players, even getting to the playoffs and giving the *cough* "mighty" *cough* 49ers all they could handle. A healthy Packer team this year would have looked much different.

    Look this whole TT debate is getting old because too many people do not understand there is a middle ground, it is like 95% of the people either think TT can do no wrong because we won a Super Bowl or think he is horrible because we have only won one Super Bowl in the last 5 seasons. It makes it really hard for those of us that understand the truth of the matter which is that TT is absolutely deserving of both praise AND criticism. Unfortunately any time anyone criticizes TT on this board that person is made out to be ungrateful, spoiled, entitled, blah, blah, blah, blah...

    Does anyone see the pattern in the above list?

    Here is the plain and simple truth of the matter:

    1. TT deserves heaps of praise for drafting and building one of the premier offensive teams in the league and winning a recent Super Bowl! Thank you TT, you are awesome!

    2. TT deserves lots of criticism for drafting, building, and overpaying very average or bad defensive players and building one of the most pathetic defensive teams of the last 5 years. Damnit TT, what you are doing on defense flat out is not working, please analyze this and find a way to fix it while we still have the best QB in the league. We do not need a premier defense while we have A-Rod but in the name of all that is holy the defense at the very least needs to be average.
     
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  5. BorderRivals.com

    BorderRivals.com Cheesehead

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    This is perhaps one of the most well-written analysis of TT in this forum. I agree that there is a middle ground and think you've hit it on the head. But, what drives me nuts is people deliberately ignoring TT's accomplishments - such as a SB merely three years ago - when analyzing how good/bad he is. Maybe your well thought out post can help get us back on track a bit.
     
  6. sjb12681

    sjb12681 Cheesehead

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    I think the D can be fixed. It needs fresh coaching blood, and a few bodies and draft picks. Not reaches in draft picks, and not overpayment for FAs. I agree with OGsponge, it has to be a middle ground.

    We cannot continue to ignore a 3rd of the business of building teams while hoping to find players like shields in UFA after the draft. We cannot continue to not coach guys up if the coaching isnt improving the play on the field.

    We can spend on a younger, mid level guy with the ability to be coached up, IF we can coach them up. If we grab a mid level prospect, but cannot develop them, then we are stuck. We are also going to have this occur with high level draft picks if we cannot coach them up.
     
  7. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    "Does anyone see the pattern?" YA... I see a pattern. I see a pattern where year after year under Ted Thompson the Packers are in the running for the Super Bowl along with just a handful of other teams.

    Now let me ask YOU a question and unlike most posts like this where people don't answer... please answer... just a yes or no.... If you had to lay down $1,000 right now, would you pick the Packers to go to the playoffs, yet again, next year?

    I bet you would....anywhooooooo...what was that you were saying again?
     
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  8. sjb12681

    sjb12681 Cheesehead

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    Coaching is more the issue to me than talent. Our struggles in the red zone. Our Training staff being unable to keep players on the field. The fact that players have to convince our coach to go for it on 4th down in the last 3 minutes of the last game of the season for a shot at not only winning the division, but also making the playoffs, while our D has been porous all year.

    Those are all coaching talent, not player talent.

    We have enough pieces, but could get better pieces. We need better leadership in the front office. We also need better talent leadership coaching these guys up.
     
  9. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I consider myself a TT agnostic. He's not as good as his supporters contend and not as bad as the haters make him out to be. His strength is in conservative cap management (assuming he's the guy driving that and not Ball) and finding value in the middle and lower rounds.

    I suggest you compare Seattle's team-building under Schneider to TT performance since Schneider left the Packers. It should give you pause.
     
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  10. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    Why do i have to answer in a fashion that you deem when your simple yes or no answer does nothing but support your point of view? Would I put $1000 on the Pack making the playoffs? Yes. Would I put a $1000 on them making the Super Bowl? No.

    And thank you for putting up a post of exactly what I was talking about. I said to many posters on this board are not allowed to criticize TT because of people like you who believe that TT should apparently get a free pass for life. If you can not see the faults with what TT has done with this team, then you suffer from blind homerism.

    The team has faults, especially on the defensive side of the ball and everyone but you apparently realizes this. This team will not do anything but continually lose in the playoffs if the defensive side of the team is not addressed and fixed.
     
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  11. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    Thank you for answering a simple question. ..and I agree...it is a no-brainer...Ted Thompson puts this team in position every year.
     
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  12. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Another thought occurs to me. When McKenzie left for Oakland, Eliot Wolf, Ron's son, was promoted to McKenzie's position as Director of Pro Personnel, which covers pro scouting. He's the youngest guy in the league in that position at age 31. His resume is so light the Packers.com bio insists on including his having "worked" 21 drafts and Combines, dating from age 10.

    His first position of responsibility was as Assistant Director of Pro Personnel for the Packers in 2008.

    During his time in such positions of responsibility our most significant free agent signings were Chillar and Saturday, neither of which you'd call successes.

    So, what exactly recommends Wolf for the job, other than he can call down to Jupiter for a fatherly opinion, and if the Tuna is joining him for dinner maybe get a two-fer? Seriously, though, while Wolf may be a bright and talented young man, he's untested in the art of free agent evaluation. The young man has had little practice! TT brings in old unrequited loves like Steven Jackson and Chris Canty for failed talks over minimum vet salaries that are bound to be rejected. Perhaps the problem is an empty pipeline of fresh ideas made further atrophied through lack of use.

    In the last few years we've lost Schnieder, McKenzie, Shaun Herock (assistant director of college scouting hired away by McKenzie) and Dorsey. That's quite a brain drain.

    Even if we wanted to sign free agents, it's questionable we're equipped to do so. Besides, it's more fun to hang out in the southern California sunshine and project players to positions for which they are ill-suited.
     
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  13. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Well said sir...Well said
     
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  14. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    AMEN brother!
     
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  15. NorthWestCheeseHead

    NorthWestCheeseHead Cheesehead

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    Well this was a quick convo. Og won the internets with that wonderful post in reply to the op.
     
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  16. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    And where do all the injuries that didn't help this team this season fit into all this?
    How, in any way, can TT be blamed or criticized for that, besides the back up QB fiasco?
     
  17. NorthWestCheeseHead

    NorthWestCheeseHead Cheesehead

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    Oh I don't know, maybe actually read the post. Personally I see very little blame being doled out in Og's post for the 2013 squad. Heck he even acknowledges that there were a large number of injuries and that it did negatively affect the team.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  18. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Just wanting to look at it from all angles and wondering how much blame TT should get this season.
     
  19. Ogsponge

    Ogsponge Cheesehead

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    I don’t necessarily like the term blame as it implies it is someone’s fault and football is, in my opinion the ultimate team sport. There is not a single player, coach, GM, owner in the NFL that can win a football game, a division title, conference championship or a NFL title all by themselves. It truly takes everyone from the front office to the coaching staff to the players to make it happen. This holds true in most sports but even more so in football. In baseball a pitcher can win a game all by himself, in basketball one player can put the team on his back and win the game. Anyway, the only criticism I would have for TT this year is:

    1. Not addressing the safety postion since the loss of Nick Collins

    2. The back QB situation was a fiasco that probably cost us a game or two

    3. Putting to much stock in the likes of Brad Jones & Morgan Burnett

    I am not one to normally buy into the injury excuse but this team was absolutely decimated by injuries this year, way worse than the Superbowl Season. Aaron Rodgers, Randall Cobb, Jermichael Finley, Casey Hayward and Clay Matthews missed a total of 45 games combined this year and clay was wildly ineffective for 2 others because of the cast. Those are 5 players that are and were a huge part of the team. That is not on TT, I don't even know who to blame and I don't hink you can blame anyone. Some want to crucify the training staff but how?

    1. Clay broke his thumb sacking the QB...Twice! The training staff can't do anything about that.

    2. Aaron broke his collarbone being sacked, I remember watching that game and as it happened it was in slow motion for me because I was yelling at the TV, no, no, no, no, no as he was going down, saw it coming a mile away. Again the training staff can't do anything about that.

    3. Cobb with the broken leg, we all saw it, again nothing the training staff can do

    4. Finley with the neck, again, wtf? Nothing the trainging staff can do.

    5. Hayward - this is the only one that pisses me off. How in the hell does a 20 something year old professional athlete miss 13 freaking games because of hamstring?!?!?! This makes no sense.

    Anyway, enough rambling, you asked how much blame does TT should for this year? I would have to say very little, the 3 things mentioned above are all I can think of and we would not even be talking about number 2 without rodgers injury.
     
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  20. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    I´m not totally sure the strength and conditioning staff should get a free pass for any of those injuries. It might look like there is nothing to prevent most of the injuries you´ve listed above, but I´ve talked to some physiotherapists about that and was told that even injuries like that could be prevented with proper training (it´s not my opinion as I´ve actually no idea about this business). And the article in the NY Times about the strength and conditioning staff in Stanford made me think if there´s more to that as we all know.
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Training can prevent a broken bone? I would like to read that article if you can find it again
     
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  22. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    I agree... there's no way the Pack will ever go to the playoffs if Rodgers goes down for any amount of time or if Ted doesn't address the safety situation. Wait.......ahhhh...never mind.
     
  23. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Correction, Aaron Rodgers and the offense has put this team in position every year. Yea TT drafted Rodgers blah blah blah but funny how Ted Thompson lovers were singing a different tune when Rodgers went down and we had to lean on a defense and a backup quarterback to who quite frankly was signed because your beloved TT botched the qb situation in pre-season!

    Had Flynn not been let go when he was this team doesn't sniff the playoffs..the Packers lucked out! making the playoffs this year was sheer luck i don't care how you TT supporters see it. This team is in position every year to win the North but lack other quality pieces to win a SB.. and that's because of the players or lack thereof that are on the roster..that i give 100% credit to TT. NOBODY is afraid of the Packers defense...nobody! He drafted one player in the last 4 freakin yrs who is a stud while the rest are just bodies at a position. But he deserves all this credit and no blame? but yet we are TT haters? because we recognize that the defense is still bad? and that his draft and develop method isn't working and hasn't worked out? I posted a chart a couple days ago about where the Packers have ranked on defense the past 4yrs and how many points and yds they gave up in the playoff loses. Which basically have been a result of defensive calamity. Blame should NOT escape Ted Thompson who has invested numerous picks on a defense that hasn't gotten any better.

    Since 2011, Thompson has used seven picks in the first four rounds on the draft on defensive players. In order, Davon House, Nick Perry, Jerel worthy, Casey Hayward, Mike Daniels, and Jerron McMillan in 2012; and Datone Jones in 2013. Being the great evalator of talent he gets so much credit for shouldn't the defense be better? instead of one of the leagues worst?

    Heres a FACT for you folks who think that you know everything..since winning the Super Bowl XLV , the Packers have allowed the THIRD most yards in the NFL, behind only New England and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Grren Bay is also 14th in points allowed during that span, but ONLY the Giants have a winning record out of the 13 other teams since 2011. The Packers can't handle the heavyweights in the NFC and that is another painful fact. The Packers not having a championship caliber defense is as much to blame on TT then Capers..that's the main reason he WON'T fire Capers.
     
  24. NOMOFO

    NOMOFO Cheesehead

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    Let's not let actual results and FACTS get in the way here.

    What do the Browns, Lions, Jets, Chiefs, Fins and Vikings have in common? ANSWER: It’s been THIRTY years or more since these teams last appeared in a Super Bowl or NFL Championship game.

    What do the Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Houston Texans and Jacksonville Jaguars have in common? ANSWER: All are still waiting to make their FIRST Super Bowl appearance.

    What do the Arizona Cardinals, Atlanta Falcons, Buffalo Bills, Carolina Panthers, Cincinnati Bengals, Minnesota Vikings, Philadelphia Eagles, San Diego Chargers, Seattle Seahawks and Tennessee Titans all have in common? ANSWER: Those clubs have never won a Super Bowl.

    What do the Bills, Browns, Raiders, Rams, Bucs, Jags, Dolphins, Titans, Cowboys, Bears, Cards and Jets have in common? ANSWER: It’s been three or more years since these teams have EVEN MADE the playoffs.


    What do the Bengals, Lions, Chiefs, Bills, Browns, Fins, Raiders, Bucs and Titans have in common? ANSWER: It’s been TEN or more years since these teams have won ONE playoff game.

    What do the Bengals, Skins. Lions. Fins, Browns, Chiefs and Bills have in common? ANSWER: It’s been TWENTY or more years since these teams have made it to a championship playoff game.
     
  25. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I like how you dodged my previous post...the FACTS in that one actually matter. I don't think to many people care about how many teams have gone to the SB and the last time they have been if it's not concerning the Packers. Try again.
     

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