Well, if Rodgers actually asked to re-sign Cobb?

brandon2348

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Do you honestly believe that the Seahawks could just plug Davon House into their defense and get the same production as they get now?

Man, if it's this easy, I guess we need to play a little more Cover 3 on D. I wouldn't mind having the productivity of the Seahawks D.

C'mon, man. I hate the Seahawks and Richard Sherman but let's at least attempt to look fairly at things here.

Yeah I don't just believe that but they have done that. They have plugged in 5-6 different db's in the last few years into there corner spot. Here ya go.

Richard Sherman
Byron Maxwell
Brandon Browner
Walter Thurmand
Tharold Simon
 

brandon2348

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Do you honestly believe that the Seahawks could just plug Davon House into their defense and get the same production as they get now?

Man, if it's this easy, I guess we need to play a little more Cover 3 on D. I wouldn't mind having the productivity of the Seahawks D.

C'mon, man. I hate the Seahawks and Richard Sherman but let's at least attempt to look fairly at things here.

Here is what I will agree with you guys on. If you threw Sam Shields into Seahawks D and scheme he would probably be nothing more then a slot guy. At the same time if you threw any of there corners in our D they wouldn't be able to do some of things required to make it work. Too Slow.

And if this was the case that they could do well in our system why does TT not draft corners with similar size and speed make ups? hmmmm.
 

brandon2348

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As much as I dislike Richard Sherman if we ran the Seahawks Scheme on defense I would be like "yeah we want that guy and he could help us" but we don't run that scheme. He simply is a system guy that fits a certain scheme doing a specific thing. All he would do is chew up a lot money and cause distention amongst the ranks. It would be a nightmare and I really don't know where on the field he would even fit in with what we do.

I really don't see how getting slower in the back end helps us.
 

brandon2348

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I'm able to take an objective look at the Packers and their opponents while it seems to me that you're not capable of doing that, especially if it comes to the Seahawks.

Here's an amazing number for you (even I wasn't aware the guy is that good): Since entering the league in 2011 as a fifth-round pick Sherman has allowed an opponents passer rating of 42.6 (!!!) while being targeted 308 times.

Here is something real "AMAZING" that even I didn't know.

Sherman's 2014 pick list:

Kolin Kaerpnick (2)
Derek Car (1)
Ryan Lindley (1)

Let's just put this guy in the Hall of Fame. Screw it. I am sooooo amazed. :cry:
 

Sunshinepacker

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If the Packers cut Shields after two seasons it will result in dead money of $6.25 million counting towards the cap with the player not being on the roster anymore.

It doesn't matter how much cap space a team saves by such a move, a huge amount of dead money results in cap issues at some point.

That's how Shields' contract is structured, the dead money us only there for a year if he gets cut and the actual penalty isn't that bad. This isn't some cowboys/saints dead money, it's intelligent dead money.
 
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That's how Shields' contract is structured, the dead money us only there for a year if he gets cut and the actual penalty isn't that bad. This isn't some cowboys/saints dead money, it's intelligent dead money.

In this case the Packers would have taken a cap hit of $21 million for Shields playing for two years. Way too much for his production.
 

PackerDNA

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I've seen enough of Sam to know that he'll never be one of the game's elite CBs; a very good one most of the time, but too inconsistent, too many breakdowns.
He has outstanding speed and athletic ability, yet too many times he is so badly beaten that he appears to have no idea where the ball or his man are. He still hasn't broken his bad habit of peeking into the backfield, and relies too much on his speed to compensate for his errors. At this point of his career, he his what he is and won't improve or change much, if any.
As to his contract, Thompson did the right thing in his position at the time. He did a great job with how the contract was structured, while still paying up enough to satisfy Shields. You've got to ante up now and then, or get used to the idea of top 10-15 draft picks every year.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Wow, you got me there... no possible way for him to be a part owner of an NFL franchise with a net worth of only $30Million, but super easy to achieve that goal with a net worth of $35Million. I'm tired of attempting a meaningful discussion with a fan who knows everything, yet spews that us "other fans" know nothing.

Ahhh, the standard practice of focusing on one detail of a point while completely ignoring the point. Standard practice when one doesn't actually have a decent rebuttal.

Yeah, obviously $5 million isn't the difference in owning a team. You seemed to miss the part about the house but I'll assume you just missed it. My point remains, it's REAL easy to say SOMEONE ELSE has enough money.
 

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In this case the Packers would have taken a cap hit of $21 million for Shields playing for two years. Way too much for his production.

Where else should they have spent the money? This isn't like a household budget, bad deals don't really matter if they're not handicapping your cap.

I would also say that on the list of overpriced players on the Packers, Shields is far behind Jones and Hawk and also Raji for basically his entire rookie deal (except for one season).
 
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D

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Where else should they have spent the money? This isn't like a household budget, bad deals don't really matter if they're not handicapping your cap.

Bad deals are going to handicap your cap though. One deal maybe doesn't make a huge difference but several contracts resulting in a huge amount of dead money will lead to issues for every team in the league.
 
H

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Well, the best solution would be to be able to keep the dead money at a minimum under all circumstances. It doesn't always work out that way but while it only affects a single year directly it reduces the money being allowed to roll over as well. In addition you have to find an adequate and cheap replacement for your scenario to work out.
Right. The player's deal can't be looked at in a vacuum. It has to be weighed against the cost of and the risk in choosing a replacement.

Some of this discussion involves Shields. While Shields might not have played at a Pro Bowl level in 2014, we should all agree his cap number for this season of $5.6 mil looks at least reasonable. If that's not the case in someone's mind, then they should not be arguing cap; it should be a performance discussion along the lines of "how good is Shields, really?"

When the time comes, even if his 2016 numbers of $12.1 mil cap/$9 mil cash looks exorbitant, those numbers need to be weighed against the $5.9 mil cap savings in cutting him. That $5.9 mil is the cap available for a veteran "wash" replacement. That's not a lot for a cover corner.

Then there's the risk. What guarantee do you have that there will be a good fit replacement on the free agent market in that price range? None. You could go for a rookie and get cap savings in the bargain, but you risk a bust. The cost of failure at this position is very high. How about a guy from the bench who can step in? For that, we'll need to see who's available come 2016. We don't even know who the #2 and #3 cover corners will be next year.

Instead of a hypothetical, lets look at a real world case...Peppers.

His cap number for 2015 is $12 mil, with a $9.5 mil cash payout, with $5 mil dead cap and $7 mil cap savings if cut.

Did Pepper play to a $12 mil level this year or could he be expected to play to that level next year? Taken in a vacuum, certainly not. $12 mil would place him at #2 in the league among 3-4 OLBs behind Matthews based on annual average cap. Peppers is a Pro Bowl alternate, which seems about right among 3-down edge rushers.

How many think at this point that Peppers should be released at the end of this season because he's overvalued? Not many. Why? Because of the years of futility trying to find a "bookend" in the draft are fresh in the mind, including semi-failures with first round (Perry) and second round (Neal) picks.

We could also get into the history surrounding the failure to re-sign Jenkins and the subsequent issues in replacing that 3 tech/5 tech swing man.

So, if anybody thinks replacing Shields would be an easy matter, consider first the past failures and the risks in assuming some reasonably priced replacement will materialize.
 

brandon2348

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Right. The player's deal can't be looked at in a vacuum. It has to be weighed against the cost of and the risk in choosing a replacement.

Some of this discussion involves Shields. While Shields might not have played at a Pro Bowl level in 2014, we should all agree his cap number for this season of $5.6 mil looks at least reasonable. If that's not the case in someone's mind, then they should not be arguing cap; it should be a performance discussion along the lines of "how good is Shields, really?"

When the time comes, even if his 2016 numbers of $12.1 mil cap/$9 mil cash looks exorbitant, those numbers need to be weighed against the $5.9 mil cap savings in cutting him. That $5.9 mil is the cap available for a veteran "wash" replacement. That's not a lot for a cover corner.

Then there's the risk. What guarantee do you have that there will be a good fit replacement on the free agent market in that price range? None. You could go for a rookie and get cap savings in the bargain, but you risk a bust. The cost of failure at this position is very high. How about a guy from the bench who can step in? For that, we'll need to see who's available come 2016. We don't even know who the #2 and #3 cover corners will be next year.

Instead of a hypothetical, lets look at a real world case...Peppers.

His cap number for 2015 is $12 mil, with a $9.5 mil cash payout, with $5 mil dead cap and $7 mil cap savings if cut.

Did Pepper play to a $12 mil level this year or could he be expected to play to that level next year? Taken in a vacuum, certainly not. $12 mil would place him at #2 in the league among 3-4 OLBs behind Matthews based on annual average cap. Peppers is a Pro Bowl alternate, which seems about right among 3-down edge rushers.

How many think at this point that Peppers should be released at the end of this season because he's overvalued? Not many. Why? Because of the years of futility trying to find a "bookend" in the draft are fresh in the mind, including semi-failures with first round (Perry) and second round (Neal) picks.

We could also get into the history surrounding the failure to re-sign Jenkins and the subsequent issues in replacing that 3 tech/5 tech swing man.

So, if anybody thinks replacing Shields would be an easy matter, considaer first the past failures and the risks in assuming some reasonably priced replacement will materialize.

While your at it don't forget about the nightmare process to get to Dix and Burnett at Safety with Hyde as a reserve. I heard people last year around this time complain that Tramon wasn't worth his contract then all the sudden against the Niners in playoff game and a good year this year it's "all is well in Rome",

These guys play a lot of man to man so it's going to be tough no matter who you put back there. Patrick Peterson got beat for 8 TD's this year so is he no longer an elite Corner? Should the Cards eat his contract and cut ties? Ummm No. I just don't think some people understand the ability and the difference of playing man to man vs zone. It's night and day.

IMO if people are going to start questioning Shields then mine as well question Capers "high risk vs high reward" defense if you want to get down to it. It is way to early to evaluate Shields deal and talking about getting out of it in 2 years IMO. It would just be stupid to cut Shields loose cause nobody on here has come up yet with a guy to replace him under current deal and drafting corners is never a sure thing.

The Shields deal was not a bad deal.
 
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brandon2348

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TT knows how hard it is to find a "cover corner" that can do some of the things Shields can do. Add that to the fact Shields is one of our guys that came up in our system he paid him and rewarded him for quality production to an ascending player. You have a better chance of being struck by lightning then Shields being cut. Some of this talk is ridiculous.

On top of that I will have no problem reminding all of those that are discounting Shields value, saying he is overrated, questioning him and everything else. I feel very safe with Shields back there and I expect him to be big time on "the run".

The real discussion should be do they keep Tramon or House after the season cause I don't see them keeping both.
 
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These guys play a lot of man to man so it's going to be tough no matter who you put back there. Patrick Peterson got beat for 8 TD's this year so is he no longer an elite Corner? Should the Cards eat his contract and cut ties? Ummm No. I just don't think some people understand the ability and the difference of playing man to man vs zone. It's night and day.

IMO if people are going to start questioning Shields then mine as well question Capers "high risk vs high reward" defense if you want to get down to it. It is way to early to evaluate Shields deal and talking about getting out of it in 2 years IMO. It would just be stupid to cut Shields loose cause nobody on here has come up yet with a guy to replace him under current deal and drafting corners is never a sure thing.

The Shields deal was not a bad deal.

Peterson has had terrible games covering DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin and Julio Jones and for sure hasn't played on an elite level this season.

Shields is overpaid but there's no way the Packers will and should get rid of him.
 

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Yeah I don't just believe that but they have done that. They have plugged in 5-6 different db's in the last few years into there corner spot. Here ya go.

Richard Sherman
Byron Maxwell
Brandon Browner
Walter Thurmand
Tharold Simon

A lot of that history for the Seahawks is that Pete Carroll is renowned for developing corners.
 

brandon2348

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A lot of that history for the Seahawks is that Pete Carroll is renowned for developing corners.

Yeah and if you gave Carroll and the Hawks Sam Shields to plug into there slot in there nickle package they would be salivating like no tomorrow.

You want to talk about scary.
 

brandon2348

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Throw Richard Sherman or Byron Maxwell in our D and our secondary doesn't get any scarier IMO.

Not unless you change the whole defense for 1 guy which we don't have the personnel to do.
 
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Patrick Peterson got beat for 8 TD's this year so is he no longer an elite Corner?
You shouldn't have asked me that question. Pat Peterson is among the most overrated players in the NFL. He's living off Combine numbers, draft position and 4 kick returns for TDs his rookie year. He doesn't even look good getting beat...a bit stiff and slow-twitch if you ask me.
 

brandon2348

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You shouldn't have asked me that question. Pat Peterson is among the most overrated players in the NFL. He's living off Combine numbers, draft position and 4 kick returns for TDs his rookie year. He doesn't even look good getting beat...a bit stiff and slow-twitch if you ask me.

Right so who is an "elite cover corner" with all the rules and changes making it almost impossible sometimes to play man to man? My point was more that the Cards are not going to cut Peterson and I have my own issues with Peterson. I was using him as a point of reference of what "so called experts" call an elite corner and giving up 8 TD's. I would rather have Shields at an average of 9.7 mill a year compared to Peterson at 14 mill. 9.7 sounds a lot better then 14 which should further show Shields contract was not a bad deal.
 
H

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Williams is ranked higher than Shields in the NFC in defensive stats.o

Not sure where to find TDs allowed but here is what I found on ESPN: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/defense/sort/passesDefended/league/nfc
That's because Williams has had a nice season following on a good second half last year. It took about two years for him to fully recover from the shoulder injury where there was reported nerve damage (typicially associated with strength and feel issues). He played through the injury while not being able to press cover effectively.

He's a darn good corner, back to 2010 form for the better part of two seasons now.
 
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