1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

The Scrum

Discussion in 'Green Bay Packers Fan Forum' started by gopkrs, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Wondering what others thought about pushing and pulling running backs for a few more yards. I actually don't like it much as I see it as a Rugby thing. I think when the scrum thing starts to happen; the refs should call the ball dead. Really wondering how others see it as it is getting more and more common. Not sure when it changed because I think it used to be illegal.
     
  2. Calvin

    Calvin Cheesehead

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2019
    Packer Fan Since:
    1985
    I don't mine it. At the end of the day if you tackle the guy no teammate can push when the guy with the ball is on the ground. What bothers me is when the defense tackles the runner but pushes him 3-5 yds forward in the process.
     
  3. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    To be clear, the NFL rules state that "no offensive player may pull a runner in any direction at any time." That's good for a 10 yard penalty.

    There is no prohibition in the NFL against a teammate pushing a runner. I don't remember a time when this wasn't legal. I don't have any paricular issue with it. Consider it a bit of ancient football DNA. ;)

    "Assisting the Runner" is addressed at 12.1.4 in the NFL rule book on page 45 where illegal pulling is referenced:

    https://operations.nfl.com/media/3831/2019-playing-rules.pdf

    There are circumstances where it is illegal to push a teammate, also referenced on that page 45.

    I have no idea what the rules might be in college or high school.
     
  4. Poppa San

    Poppa San Levelheaded Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,149
    Likes Received:
    929
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Location:
    Brown County Wisconsin
    Packer Fan Since:
    1919
    Illegal during the Ice Bowl era. Taylor(?) looks like he is signalling TD on Starr's sneak when he said he was just putting his hands up to show the refs he wasn't pushing since it was a penalty. I do not know where I read or heard that.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Messages:
    20,084
    Likes Received:
    1,846
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2005
    Location:
    Milwaukee
    Packer Fan Since:
    1975
    Was an interview as I heard sane explanation
     
  6. OldSchool101

    OldSchool101 Peerless Beer, Lacrosse WI

    Messages:
    4,187
    Likes Received:
    460
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1973
    I wonder why they didn’t penalize the Panthers OL for trying to pull McCaffrey across the goal line on their final play last week?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

    Messages:
    22,813
    Likes Received:
    1,141
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Packer Fan Since:
    1995
    I would like the refs to blow the whistle faster sometimes when forward progress is stopped but overall the rule is fine.
     
  8. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Taylor can be found saying this in the following video at at 56:20:

    edit #1: Oops, that's Mercein as gopkrs pointed out.

    The oldest rule book I can find is from 2011, which includes a couple of interesting things.

    1) That rule book includes an example which explicitly states that a runner can be pushed by a teammate:

    "Second and goal on B2. Runner A1 gets to the line of scrimmage and is stopped but A2, who is behind him, pushes him from behind and shoves him over the goal line. Ruling: Touchdown."

    We're in at least year 9 where this runner assistance has been legal, maybe longer.

    2) Strangely, the 2011 wording is, " No offensive player may lift a runner to his feet or pull him in any direction at any time."

    That bold passage is no longer in the rule book, dropped somewhere along line.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  9. XPack

    XPack Cheesehead

    Messages:
    2,478
    Likes Received:
    239
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Location:
    Garden State
    Packer Fan Since:
    2014
  10. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Surprised nobody said anything...It was Chuck Mercein. On the final play of The Ice Bowl.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    They should have thrown a flag. You cannot assume the officials know (or care?) about all of the rules. Had McCaffrey scored and the Panthers ended up winning the game it would have been a controversy.

    Those former NFL office rules "experts" they have on the broadcasts these days flub the rules with some regularity. One of these guys keeps saying, "he's got possession and took two steps, so it's a catch." You'd think with all the controvery surrounding the catch rules he'd have the current rules memorized. Nope. It's control with two feet down and one additional step among a few possible criteria. The rule now (finally and sanely) reads:

    "A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is inbounds:

    1. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
    2. touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
    3. after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so."
    You'll also hear these experts still referring to "a football move" being the criteria. Who knows what a football move is supposed to be, but even if all the specifics above are regarded as such he doesn't have to to do that if he has possession long enough to do so.

    There was another play I saw recently where the "expert" declared that a play where a receiver stepped out of bounds before getting both feet down inbounds for a catch should be ruled incomplete in that a receiver cannot reestablish himself in the field of play. The color commentator corrected him; a receiver can reestablish himself inbounds if forced out by a defender.

    The play was reviewed, and New York made the right rule interpretation. Good thing that "expert" was not the New York official. Whether the contact was sufficient to make that call is debateable.

    Who knows how many rule flubs we'd find if we scrutinized every play of every game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    You know what's worse, gopkrs? None of us seemed to recall that Taylor wasn't even on the 1967 team. He was gone to New Orleans for his final season. It was over 50 years ago so we have that going for us...or not. :confused:
     
  13. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Well, the final important play. We had to kick off. And Dandy Don had to throw 2 passes.
    Yeah, neither was Paul Hornung. I think Grabowski played but Donnie Anderson and Chuck Mercein were down the stretch.
     
  14. weeds

    weeds Fiber deprived old guy.

    Messages:
    3,502
    Likes Received:
    563
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Location:
    Oshkosh, WI
    Packer Fan Since:
    1965
    I think the "pushing" is the result of defenders trying to straighten an RB up so they can rip and tear at the ball. There was a time when plays were blown dead earlier..when the back's forward progress appeared to have stop. I don't mind the OL pushing from behind, knowing the defense is trying to stand him up to strip the ball.

    I've seen 3 blatant instances o OLinemen trying to PULL backs in, including Carolina and I don't much like that crap. Not sure why.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Calvin

    Calvin Cheesehead

    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2019
    Packer Fan Since:
    1985
    I could be wrong but in college football during the national champ when Reggie Bush was against Vince Young, I think USC got penalized when an O lineman pushed Bush across the goal line.
     
  16. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    That is a good point about the tacklers trying to stand the runner up so as to strip the ball. So I will agree with Wimm and say that the officials should start blowing the play dead sooner. (kind of a slippery slope) Those things i.e., pushing the runner, pulling the runner and standing the runner up to strip the ball are all kind of rugby things. I don't think they should be a big part of the game, which they have become. Perhaps not allow it to be a fumble when a player is obviously stood up and not let down.
     
  17. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Why? If a defender is trying to strip the ball instead of wrapping up that would be the reason to not blow the play dead.

    It does seem blowing plays dead is less frequent than it used to be but when it is I find it too quick as often as not. As far as I'm concered, if the runner is not wrapped and pushed backward let the players play. If the runner is still churning at a standstill the winner is not resolved; let second effort decide the matter.
     
  18. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    I think that when 3 or 4 players are not allowing a player to go to the ground, the play should be stopped. The odds are very slim the runner will go anywhere. I just think that is a cheap way to get a turnover. But it is a judgement call as to when to blow the whistle.
     
  19. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Oh, I fully expect that play to be blown dead. How often does that happen anyway without it blown dead? I can't picture that.

    One guy holding him up and another guy going for the ball? Then the defense takes the chance they will give up fall-forward yards (with a push from his teamates ;), a scenario that might explain why pushing the runner is legal) or the runner will get away. That's the risk they take.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  20. Poppa San

    Poppa San Levelheaded Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,149
    Likes Received:
    929
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Location:
    Brown County Wisconsin
    Packer Fan Since:
    1919
    The scrum is just a throwback to the original game of 125 years ago. Let it continue.
     
  21. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

    Messages:
    13,229
    Likes Received:
    934
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Today's scrum is not quite like days of yore:

     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  22. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

    Messages:
    1,270
    Likes Received:
    59
    Joined:
    May 12, 2014
    Packer Fan Since:
    1959
    Yes, well in that case it certainly never should have been brought up.
     

Share This Page

-->