the NFL just released their Official Draft Rankings

TexasCheesehead

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Oh my God, I'm merely using historical references in similar situations to what is playing out now. No **** sherlock there are picks that have been booms and picks that have been busts......I however won't use any of those to make a declaration of a draft class that hasn't even seen a play in the NFL yet. It is ignorant to do so either direction.

Knocking the talent level of the guys picked has nothing to do with my point. On your line of thinking along with your history lesson (thank you for referencing doubted picks that turned out great then got mad at the draft busts pointed out by Patriotplayer90) we did fine and everyone is ignorant for questioning who was picked in this draft...but the point being made is I'd rather question a top pick 1st or second round WR and/or LB at this point instead of a QB for the future and a 3rd round TE. Free agency money pool is thin, talent is scarce and the draft was loaded. Why not take the shot at what is a proven need on offense?
 

tynimiller

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Knocking the talent level of the guys picked has nothing to do with my point. On your line of thinking along with your history lesson (thank you for referencing doubted picks that turned out great then got mad at the draft busts pointed out by Patriotplayer90) we did fine and everyone is ignorant for questioning who was picked in this draft...but the point being made is I'd rather question a top pick 1st or second round WR and/or LB at this point instead of a QB for the future and a 3rd round TE. Free agency money pool is thin, talent is scarce and the draft was loaded. Why not take the shot at what is a proven need on offense?

Again I've never argued defense of the exact decisions Gute and Co. did...dear lord if some of these folks were here more than merely when mad about the 2020 draft they would have seen I was one that constantly predicted and wanted us to grab one of my Top 5 WRs or at minimum one of my Top 15 if place and pick made sense value wise. I argue brought up or discussed more WRs than anyone on the board so let's not pretend like the draft went as I predicted or as I wanted and I'll defend it.

I will however not be ignorant planting my stubborn feet in the mud like a two year old merely because things didnt align with my desires and make blanket statements which cannot be substantiated.
 

TexasCheesehead

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What if Kirksey is the player to bolster the middle of this defense by being an improvement over Martinez? Yes, we didn't address a defensive need until late in the draft but we also addressed it in FA.

ill agree with that man, im more focused of the WR situation but true we drafted late but signed Kirksey as well.
 

TexasCheesehead

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I will however not be ignorant planting my stubborn feet in the mud like a two year old merely because things didnt align with my desires and make blanket statements which cannot be substantiated.

guess i missed my "ignorant blanket statement" made to you. Honestly the draft is like Lotto for a majority of the picks, that is understood, no one knows who will pan out and who will bust. Just frustration boiling over but its hard to deny when you disagree with the moves made then see 90% (or more) of sports articles/draft rankings saying what you already thought.. to not question the thought process by Gute and MLF. Did we get talent? i truly believe so, but i just wish we had some more pieces to the puzzle for a 2020 run, not 2024. That being said we just wait now and see it unfold..and hope for the best.
 

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guess i missed my "ignorant blanket statement" made to you. Honestly the draft is like Lotto for a majority of the picks, that is understood, no one knows who will pan out and who will bust. Just frustration boiling over but its hard to deny when you disagree with the moves made then see 90% (or more) of sports articles/draft rankings saying what you already thought.. to not question the thought process by Gute and MLF. Did we get talent? i truly believe so, but i just wish we had some more pieces to the puzzle for a 2020 run, not 2024. That being said we just wait now and see it unfold..and hope for the best.

Not claiming you specifically but stance in general against doing so which is littered throughout the forum lately is what that phrase was meant for.
 

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Enough with the revisionist history. GB didn't have some magical foresight, they got incredibly lucky with Rodgers. As for Collins, if GB had a track record of drafting well and proving fans wrong, you'd have a point. But he definitely seems to be an anomaly in a long line of players such as Josh Jones, Josh Jackson, Kevin King, Quentin Rollins, demarious Randall, datone Jones, jerel worthy, Derrick sherrod, Nick Perry, etc, etc, etc.

And this is why the draft is such a crap shoot. At least Gute isn't afraid of dipping his toes into FA and signing veterans who have shown they can play at this level.
 

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I count myself in the group that is shocked we didn't get a WR.

But I don't think grabbing a top WR is close to putting us over the edge in the SB race this year. It is not common for a WR to come in and light things up as a rookie. The 4 WRs I thought who could do that, were gone. I thought the next teir of guys could do good but not great as rookies. AR is not known to bond quickly with rookies, only Jennings was able to step in and really do well as a rookie.
 

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Unfortunately these 2 writers are not alone is panning the Packers' draft this year. Almost every article out there grading this draft parrots this line of thinking. it is ALL about not drafting what they thought was our #1 need is = WR.
And DL and ignoring OT & ILB until day 3.
And drafted a QB that had trouble against poor competition, is slow to make throws, is a poor decision maker, throws way to many picks that ARE his fault, And don't give me he had a bad team BS he played against equally bad teams and stunk he's a project who could be good eventually but the odds are better he's Kizer 2.0.

AJ Dillon against his best competition Virginia tech, Clemson and Notre Dame he never topped 100 yards rushing or 4.0 YPC.
In his entire 3 year college career he has under 250 receiving yards.
He also has a ton of tread on his tires and will likely be the #3 guy on the depth chart behind both Jamaal and Jones.
I actually don't hate the guy but he should have been a 5th or 6th round pick and likely would have been if we don't reach on him.

Josiah Deguara is probably the best of the first three picks but positional value means there is very little chance of him being worth that high of a pick because if he's anything short of Juszczyk we won't have gotten good value, at the same pick Niang was available and comparatively his odds of having a impact are much better.

No 4th round pick because we traded up for a project player.

5th round pick I don't really have a problem with though he is injury prone so naturally that will influence other opinions.

6th round don't hate any of the picks but don't love any either and KJ hill was available who most saw as a round 3 or 4 player.

7th round I like both picks.


You can clearly see there are plenty of reasons why it's not about not drafting a WR.

I very much doubt anybody here would have thought this a good draft prior to our making the picks in fact if I had posted such a mock I would have been ridiculed.

Yes it's true you can't know how a draft will pan out until a few years down the road but it is possible to say to a point whether or not the odds are in favor of it doing so or not.

The FO is not infallible to go against the 90% of facts that suggest a pick is bad off of the OPINION of the FO is parroting the line of thinking.


Now I posted this on another thread if somebody wants to debate me on a pick I will but it has to have a actual argument nothing like well maybe somehow though the odds are a million to one Dillon will be Bettis or such similarly ridicules statements.
 

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I count myself in the group that is shocked we didn't get a WR.

But I don't think grabbing a top WR is close to putting us over the edge in the SB race this year. It is not common for a WR to come in and light things up as a rookie. The 4 WRs I thought who could do that, were gone. I thought the next teir of guys could do good but not great as rookies. AR is not known to bond quickly with rookies, only Jennings was able to step in and really do well as a rookie.

I am in the group also of being shocked as well. However, when we signed Funchess I felt a fear of things playing out with just late round flyers if any was an option...I constantly hoped otherwise personally.
 

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I am in the group also of being shocked as well. However, when we signed Funchess I felt a fear of things playing out with just late round flyers if any was an option...I constantly hoped otherwise personally.
I just felt there was a need, and the talent available was amazing. When BPA, need, and depth of talent should align a few times were a WR would make absolute sense.

Apparently Gute saw it differently.
 

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I am in the group also of being shocked as well. However, when we signed Funchess I felt a fear of things playing out with just late round flyers if any was an option...I constantly hoped otherwise personally.

Part of FA and drafting can be to avoid looking like you really need help at a position where you want it. Rumor is that the 9ers traded up to scoop Aiyuk both because they liked him and because they believed we wanted him.

https://www.ninersnation.com/2020/4/30/21242324/49ers-traded-up-to-take-aiyuk-ahead-of-packers

Thompson used to rave about guys he didnt draft and used to avoid speaking too much to the players he liked, there's a reason for this. I remember all kinds of rumors about Thompson loving Michael Crabtree only for him to draft BJ Raji instead.
 
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Just for reference as some have attacked Dillon's production which has been STELLAR in college:

He faced the following rush defenses in 2019:

46th (VT), 124th (KS), 107th (RUTGERS), 74th (WAKE), 112th (LOU), 50th (NCST), 19th (CLEM), 109th (SYR), 54th (FSU), 60th (ND), 12th (Pitt) *Richmond obviously not in rankings

For reference his top 5 were 12th (Pitt), 19th (Clemson), 46th (VT), 50th (NCST) and 54th (FSU) Top 5 average: 36.2 and total average is 69.72 (excluding Richmond)

Just for observations sake these were posted. If one began to compare him to others I'd first look for common opponents and also study each OL they were running behind.
 

tynimiller

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I just felt there was a need, and the talent available was amazing. When BPA, need, and depth of talent should align a few times were a WR would make absolute sense.

Apparently Gute saw it differently.

Yup I was so wanting a WR that even in the 5th I was like screw it take DPJ even though I wasn't a fan of his. Tyler Johnson or Hightower I thought we may try to swing up for in the 5th...and maybe we did but no suitors.
 

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And DL and ignoring OT & ILB until day 3.
And drafted a QB that had trouble against poor competition, is slow to make throws, is a poor decision maker, throws way to many picks that ARE his fault, And don't give me he had a bad team BS he played against equally bad teams and stunk he's a project who could be good eventually but the odds are better he's Kizer 2.0.

AJ Dillon against his best competition Virginia tech, Clemson and Notre Dame he never topped 100 yards rushing or 4.0 YPC.
In his entire 3 year college career he has under 250 receiving yards.
He also has a ton of tread on his tires and will likely be the #3 guy on the depth chart behind both Jamaal and Jones.
I actually don't hate the guy but he should have been a 5th or 6th round pick and likely would have been if we don't reach on him.

Josiah Deguara is probably the best of the first three picks but positional value means there is very little chance of him being worth that high of a pick because if he's anything short of Juszczyk we won't have gotten good value, at the same pick Niang was available and comparatively his odds of having a impact are much better.

No 4th round pick because we traded up for a project player.

5th round pick I don't really have a problem with though he is injury prone so naturally that will influence other opinions.

6th round don't hate any of the picks but don't love any either and KJ hill was available who most saw as a round 3 or 4 player.

7th round I like both picks.


You can clearly see there are plenty of reasons why it's not about not drafting a WR.

I very much doubt anybody here would have thought this a good draft prior to our making the picks in fact if I had posted such a mock I would have been ridiculed.

Yes it's true you can't know how a draft will pan out until a few years down the road but it is possible to say to a point whether or not the odds are in favor of it doing so or not.

The FO is not infallible to go against the 90% of facts that suggest a pick is bad off of the OPINION of the FO is parroting the line of thinking.


Now I posted this on another thread if somebody wants to debate me on a pick I will but it has to have a actual argument nothing like well maybe somehow though the odds are a million to one Dillon will be Bettis or such similarly ridicules statements.

^^this is an EXCELLENT, MATURE, WELL-REASONED post. Well done, Fredrik87. The other dude, tinytinkins or whatever his name is, is kind of coming across as sunshine pumper/pack front office propagandist and as a "holier than thou" condescending superfan, calling anyone who dares disagree with his official sunshine pumper packer super fan partyline as "ignorant", when that in and of itself, is ironically quite "ignorant." Fredrik87, your response was spot on. I think you knocked him off of his "ignorant" high horse. Well-done.
 

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^^this is an EXCELLENT, MATURE, WELL-REASONED post. Well done, Fredrik87. The other dude, tinytinkins or whatever his name is, is kind of coming across as sunshine pumper/pack front office propagandist and as a "holier than thou" condescending superfan, calling anyone who dares disagree with his official sunshine pumper packer super fan partyline as "ignorant", when that in and of itself, is ironically quite "ignorant." Fredrik87, your response was spot on. I think you knocked him off of his "ignorant" high horse. Well-done.
Irony?
 

tynimiller

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^^this is an EXCELLENT, MATURE, WELL-REASONED post. Well done, Fredrik87. The other dude, tinytinkins or whatever his name is, is kind of coming across as sunshine pumper/pack front office propagandist and as a "holier than thou" condescending superfan, calling anyone who dares disagree with his official sunshine pumper packer super fan partyline as "ignorant", when that in and of itself, is ironically quite "ignorant." Fredrik87, your response was spot on. I think you knocked him off of his "ignorant" high horse. Well-done.

LOL false, ignorance is making claims either direction purely off of speculative notions and nothing else. The irony of your response proves my point.


And DL and ignoring OT & ILB until day 3.
And drafted a QB that had trouble against poor competition, is slow to make throws, is a poor decision maker, throws way to many picks that ARE his fault, And don't give me he had a bad team BS he played against equally bad teams and stunk he's a project who could be good eventually but the odds are better he's Kizer 2.0.

AJ Dillon against his best competition Virginia tech, Clemson and Notre Dame he never topped 100 yards rushing or 4.0 YPC.
In his entire 3 year college career he has under 250 receiving yards.
He also has a ton of tread on his tires and will likely be the #3 guy on the depth chart behind both Jamaal and Jones.
I actually don't hate the guy but he should have been a 5th or 6th round pick and likely would have been if we don't reach on him.

Josiah Deguara is probably the best of the first three picks but positional value means there is very little chance of him being worth that high of a pick because if he's anything short of Juszczyk we won't have gotten good value, at the same pick Niang was available and comparatively his odds of having a impact are much better.

No 4th round pick because we traded up for a project player.

5th round pick I don't really have a problem with though he is injury prone so naturally that will influence other opinions.

6th round don't hate any of the picks but don't love any either and KJ hill was available who most saw as a round 3 or 4 player.

7th round I like both picks.


You can clearly see there are plenty of reasons why it's not about not drafting a WR.

I very much doubt anybody here would have thought this a good draft prior to our making the picks in fact if I had posted such a mock I would have been ridiculed.

Yes it's true you can't know how a draft will pan out until a few years down the road but it is possible to say to a point whether or not the odds are in favor of it doing so or not.

The FO is not infallible to go against the 90% of facts that suggest a pick is bad off of the OPINION of the FO is parroting the line of thinking.


Now I posted this on another thread if somebody wants to debate me on a pick I will but it has to have a actual argument nothing like well maybe somehow though the odds are a million to one Dillon will be Bettis or such similarly ridicules statements.

We've already been through the Love discussion and you've illustrated you purely hate the kid based off of statistics alone. It was confirmed you knew nothing of the occurrences Utah State went through from his AMAZING 2018 season to then last year. Let's also all remember nearly every pundit had Love a 1st round grade, some top half, some bottom half. He is no slouch of a prospect, despite what I'm about to say below:

Also I'll type in a separate line here and bold it so those who seem to not follow (not you @Fredrik87 as much as others presently) I WOULDN'T HAVE PICKED LOVE. I WANTED A WR. When we traded up I genuinely thought either Gute loves ILB Queen OR we are grabbing a WR. However, my lack of desire to pick Love will not change my review of the player taken, NOR should it impact any opinion of the other picks...despite throughout the draft (you can scroll back through the shoutbox) I was constantly bringing up WR we could reach for or might have tripped Gute's liking more than clearly some of the second Tier ones had...but nope.

I've also stated time and time again Dillon is a FREAK of an athlete...the dude is built like a ILB, runs like a TE/WR and jumps like a freaking basketball player. I had him graded as a 3rd rounder...but I also don't value RB as high as I probably should (full disclosure). There was not a WR I liked at our #62 pick for a surefire WR2 on our roster, but I'd personally of went OT, iDL or ILB instead...but Dillon judged solely on what he can and does bring to the table should excite every single Packer fan, player and coach. Oh and you overlooked a few rush defenses he faced which were better than ND, ND was actually the 6th best rush defense he faced. Clemson wasn't even the best one.


I won't go pick by pick but anyone reading my posts as a defense of Gute's specific picks vs their location or positions merely isn't reading anything. I fully support and understand the critiques of his decisions, but I also can remove this from the equation of analyzing the players picked as well, without allowing the trickle frustration of round 1 to taint my entire image of the draft.

Also the claim you would have been ridiculed if you predicted this draft is amusing and false. Outside of the Love pick being a lightning rod the others come down to a discussion of whether someone else sees them as a round early or a round later. Shoot I never thought for a minute Stanford Samuel would see UDFA...but low and behold we signed him after the draft. I never figured Runyan would leave the 5th and would have brought that up, but again very little critiques honestly over which round would have happened outside of the Love pick being a too early or a perfect if he falls discussion.
 
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Fredrik87

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@tynimiller

Since you seem to like the Dillon pick give me some actual reasons why he's a good pickup and better than the other options that where available I get he's a freak ok but that doesn't mean he will be a great football player John Ross is a great athlete but that hasn't translated onto the football field.

Explain to my why off of just his rushing ability and athleticism he's a better pick up than say Madubuike or Josh Jones.

Why should I ignore his flaws in the passing game, the tread on his tires and positional value?

I am willing to listen to any well thought out reasonable argument you may have.



P.S

As to another point you made about there not being a sure fire WR at 62 I did not at any point in my post say we had to take a WR there or in the 1st or 3rd for that matter.
I agree there wasn't a guy there I thought would be a certain #2 though nothing is certain.
But I did see guys that I thought could be major upgrades at other positions Josh Jones & Niang are both OT's who I really liked and have much better positional value and equal or greater upside to Dillon; Madubuike, Elliotte & Wilson could have been had as well.
I'm not some nut who thinks WR had to be addressed top 2 rounds regardless of who was available.
 

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Just so you know ND was the 6th best rush defense he faced.
Just for reference as some have attacked Dillon's production which has been STELLAR in college:

He faced the following rush defenses in 2019:

46th (VT), 124th (KS), 107th (RUTGERS), 74th (WAKE), 112th (LOU), 50th (NCST), 19th (CLEM), 109th (SYR), 54th (FSU), 60th (ND), 12th (Pitt) *Richmond obviously not in rankings

For reference his top 5 were 12th (Pitt), 19th (Clemson), 46th (VT), 50th (NCST) and 54th (FSU) Top 5 average: 36.2 and total average is 69.72 (excluding Richmond)

Just for observations sake these were posted. If one began to compare him to others I'd first look for common opponents and also study each OL they were running behind.

I included his entire career not just 2019 and I don't see how pointing out that Clemson and Notre Dame run D wasn't that good helps your point.
 

tynimiller

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@tynimiller

Since you seem to like the Dillon pick give me some actual reasons why he's a good pickup and better than the other options that where available I get he's a freak ok but that doesn't mean he will be a great football player John Ross is a great athlete but that hasn't translated onto the football field.

Explain to my why off of just his rushing ability and athleticism he's a better pick up than say Madubuike or Josh Jones.

Why should I ignore his flaws in the passing game, the tread on his tires and positional value?

I am willing to listen to any well thought out reasonable argument you may have.

I already broke down the players I would have taken over him. He was not my personal top rated player on my board at 62 so I cannot argue for him vs another from my personal point of view.

Clearly Gute & Co disagreed with me though, and there are positives of Dillon that I get and understand might attract someone. Recognizing the one without agreeing is possible and Dillon is a great example of this.
 

tynimiller

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I included his entire career not just 2019 and I don't see how pointing out that Clemson and Notre Dame run D wasn't that good helps your point.

No point attempting to structure, merely noting the others in 2019 with better run defenses. I posted all the rankings earlier in the thread so all could see a reference to his 2019 defenses faced.
 

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@Fredrik87

Noticed my quick snippet breakdown of what I'd done handed the same picks was actually over in the CBS titled thread...I'll post below:

Bottom line is in all reality I would have personally done our first four picks in this year's draft differently for sure. I'd also not have went up to get Jordan Love...if he was there and depending how my staff rated him I still may have taken him...but at best case that is a 50/50 speculative statement on my part.

If you gave me the same draft picks and places my personal first 4 draft picks would have looked something like this:

#26 Michael Pittman......maybe consider a CB between these three - Noah Igbinoghene/Jeff Gladney/Jaylon Johnson
#62 Lucas Niang...maybe a Josh Jones/Lloyd Cushenberry/Michael Ojemuda/Bryan Edwards
#94 Lucas Niang was still there!!! Malik Harrison/Troy Pride Jr./Reggie Robinson/Ben Bartch
#175 Justin Strnad...at this point even Donovan Peoples-Jones is of value...Proche/Runyan/Evan Weaver


So I get it entirely...but none of that changes the opinion I held prior to the draft on Love/Dillon/Deguara and Martin (although completely admit didn't research him much)....

Love I had rated as my QB2 maybe QB1...I just think he is going to be special.
Dillon I had circled as around the 3rd-5th best back, but his rep count and bruising style is one you must have a compliment back with or have him be that. I had him pegged as a guy if there in the 3rd is a STEAL!!!
Deguara I did a write up on going into the draft. I had him pegged as a special TE/FB H-back that will come in and contribute immediately where asked...I like Dillon had him penciled in a round later than we took them.

All three are excellent football players...2 will be given chances to compete for a pecking order spot and the one is someone this franchise may hitch its future to eventually.
 

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I already broke down the players I would have taken over him. He was not my personal top rated player on my board at 62 so I cannot.
Ok so what you have given me so far is that he wasn't in either of our opinions the best option available.
Was he at least one of the top 5 available players?

And lets just look at only him not the alternatives do you think he will make a impact this year?

Is there a reason I should not worry about his ability as a pass catcher or the fact he has a lot of wear and tear on him.

Or the fact that according to one of your own posts he did not face elite top ten run D's.
 

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I'll take line by line, in response:

Ok so what you have given me so far is that he wasn't in either of our opinions the best option available.
Was he at least one of the top 5 available players?

My personal big board was the following in no real particular order at #62 (relative to need...I did have guys like Julian Okwara higher - but I weigh in need relative as well some)

Josh Jones, Lucas Niang, Michael Ojemudia, Lloyd Cushenberry and Bryan Edwards

And lets just look at only him not the alternatives do you think he will make a impact this year?

Yes, I actually do. In my opinion he pairs much better with Jones, and fits what MLF wants to do. There are times where Dillon's ability to make a 2 to 3 yard gain where half a yard only exists with brute strength is something Jones and both Williams are incapable of. Not too mention Dillon's addition, if the next level is not too much right away for him (Covid-19 could be a factor in this), makes Jamaal sadly even more disposable and possibly trade bait because I sense in the system we are going to Jones gets paid....leaving the team in no way wanting to flip the bill for Jones and Williams. That Memphis back we added or Dexter hopefully could easily serve as our #3 and there is always the shifty Ervin to take 5 or so snaps a game too. Dillon's hands are something BC didn't ask to use much, but watch his skills and the passes that do exist out there...he is fluid and seems natural at it - he'll surprise some folks is my hunch. I am hoping he makes me look back and struggle with my 3rd round grade of him.

Is there a reason I should not worry about his ability as a pass catcher or the fact he has a lot of wear and tear on him.


The amount of carries is concerning, but he similar to Taylor and actually has less use total on his wheels than him. However, with Jones around he will never be asked to be the only workhorse in the stable which is a good thing and as mentioned I don't think the pass catching aspect is something to fear - let's hope I'm right.

Or the fact that according to one of your own posts he did not face elite run D's.

It is true he faced some elite and some good and some bottom barrel rush defenses. Let's also concede at the same time his offensive line isn't what LSU, Ohio State or some of the other backs had either. Fair criticism, but noting offensive abilities as a team is crucial in holding the concern relative.
 

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@tynimillerSince you seem to like the Dillon pick give me some actual reasons why he's a good pickup and better than the other options that where available I get he's a freak ok but that doesn't mean he will be a great football player John Ross is a great athlete but that hasn't translated onto the football field.

Explain to my why off of just his rushing ability and athleticism he's a better pick up than say Madubuike or Josh Jones.

Why should I ignore his flaws in the passing game, the tread on his tires and positional value?

I am willing to listen to any well thought out reasonable argument you may have.



P.S

As to another point you made about there not being a sure fire WR at 62 I did not at any point in my post say we had to take a WR there or in the 1st or 3rd for that matter.
I agree there wasn't a guy there I thought would be a certain #2 though nothing is certain.
But I did see guys that I thought could be major upgrades at other positions Josh Jones & Niang are both OT's who I really liked and have much better positional value and equal or greater upside to Dillon; Madubuike, Elliotte & Wilson could have been had as well.
I'm not some nut who thinks WR had to be addressed top 2 rounds regardless of who was available.
Can you explain why Madubulke and Josh Jones are good picks when other players drafted at the same positions have failed?


And lets just look at only him not the alternatives do you think he will make a impact this year?

Is there a reason I should not worry about his ability as a pass catcher or the fact he has a lot of wear and tear on him.

Or the fact that according to one of your own posts he did not face elite top ten run D's.
What did you think of his performance catching the ball senior Bowl week?

How do you think MLF is going to use him? How do you see his skills translating to that function?
 
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